Psimet2001 

I'd love to, but then I would be banned. Try...https://omnomnomnom.com/

Let's just say it has history here at BF.

Psimet2001 

#9 - To continue with yesterday's discussion...

10spd specific hubs from Shimano were created in an attempt to fix a problem - in order to make the 8-9 spline strong enough it needed to be made out of steel or Ti. Many others were making Shimano freehub bodies out of Al to save weight. In the shorter spline of an 8-9 this would lead to the cogs actually shearing material out of the splines eventually leading to a freehub body that would no longer work, and/or cassettes with play in them while mounted or cassettes frozen on to the bodies themselves.

Searching for a way to make the freehub body lighter without sacrificing strength Shimano took a page out of the Campagnolo book and went for deeper splines on their 10spd version. They also knew there would be a huge pushback if the 10spd cassettes were not able to work with existing 8-9 freehub bodies. We roadies owuld be PO'd if we all had to buy new wheels to use the 10spd group.

So the solution was to keep the pattern the same, just make it deeper. That would allow the cassettes to be used on either freehub body, and still allow the creation of a 10spd Alluminum freehub body that would last (longer).

A lot of people have had a really hard time understanding all of this, and the explanations have ususlly been met with confused looks and a general feeling of "you mean I don't have the right hub for my cassette??!!" This combined with some racer's love of the 9spd system has seemed to pressure Shimano back into making the 8-9(-10) freehub on their current DA hub. To make it lighter they have begun making it out of Ti.

So...what's this all mean? It means if you have a wheel that is running a Shimano 8 or 9 spd drivetrain you can also run 10spd. It also means that if you were one of the lucky few that built a high performance wheel last year (or this if from a different manufacturer) that had a "10spd only" freehub body you can only run the deeper spline cassette.

For the life of me I can't figure out why they went back, and didn't just start making the 9spd cassettes with the deeper spline and spacer.

jcbenten

So what is the possibility of getting a new freehub body/cover with the lower spline that will fit on a 10-speed only hub? I want to take a shimano only 10-speed hub and run a SRAM cassette.

Psimet2001 

it does not appear so. Without having them in front of me I couldn't be certain, but it appears from the tech documnets that the 10spd Shimano hub used a different interface between the hub and the freehub body than the 8-9 interface. They do not appear to make an 8-9 body using that interface.

FWIW - it appears that the 2008 DA hub with the 8-9(-10) Ti freehub went back to the classic 8-9 interface.

So....if your 10 spd only hub is a Shimano you may be out of luck. I personally have a set of "aftermarket" hubs which use a 10spd specific freehub, but the manufacturer also supplies an 8-9 body for the same hub. Most others will as well.

ericcox

I keep waiting for, "Don't eat yellow snow."

Until that day, a heartfelt, non-sarcastic, serious, thank you for helping further my bicycle education.

thechemist

Some neat info here Psimet2001! thanks

jcbenten

Actually my hub is a Zero on a Ritchey wheel. I will check with Ritchey. But I am not holding my breath.

Psimet2001 

#10- Ti cogs. Ti is meant for frames...not cassettes. Bling-bling cassettes almost always have cogs made out of Ti (SRAM Red being the exception). This is done to save weight. It comes at the expense of durability. Ti cogs do not last as long as their steel cousins do.

Save your money and buy steel cassettes. They perform the same and last longer.

That said if you are looking for the weight savings ...it's hard to argue against the Ti wonders. This last weekend I was putting on a DA cassette for a race (I didn't buy it...I got it for free ) and decided to put it on the scale. It was 60g lighter than the Ultegra cassette I was removing.

60grams isn't a lot (calculate how much a bottle of water weighs ), but think about how much some are willing to pay to eliminate 60g from their wheelset.

SRAM Red tried to solve this problem. When they designed the line they decided to address 2 major concerns when it comes to cassettes: Weight and durability. Thier solution was to machine a steel cassette in one piece and make it hollow using an Aluminum plate at the rear of the cassette to transfer all of the power.

Nice idea. Love it. Impressive to see in person. Monument to too much computing power for CAD and CAM packages, and young engineers. What does that mean? The price is insane. Also from the looks of it it only engages in the front and rear leading me to wonder what the wear will look like for freehub bodies that are aftermarket AL.

rousseau

How you know so much?

aham23

hours and hours and hours of BF reading.

later.

mrbubbles

#11. Remember to mount your cable ends. Getting stabbed by your cables is not cool.

Psimet2001 

I was starting to wonder if anyone was actually reading this anymore. I know that most aren't, but I figure I get to go to one place and ramble once a day.....

As for the knowledge about cassettes.....I kind of looked into manufacuring my own variant. Still may. We have the $$, floorspace and the machine tools would be cheap in comparison to what we normally do.

It fits our business model and lord knows I would know how to market it and I could sell it to any weenie that would listen...

....then I was talking to a coworker who is doing his MBA at Loyola right now and he mentioned that some VP of SRAM was a guest speaker at one of thier lectures and discussed the monumental task of designing around all of the existing patents in the bicycle world.

I decided I didn't feel like placing my design engineering chops (which are bad compared to my process and manufacturing side) against the likes of Shimano, Campy and SRAM - drag my company through endless patent disputes, court, etc. only to have the business unit go bust because it would be bling cassettes and wheels only (hello liability).....
....the embarassment would be bigger considering that the company I work for was built up by my wife's grandfather, and I am currently working for her uncles and cousins. Holiday gatherings would be a ton of fun if it failed.

....so.....sorry...where was I....??

steaktaco

That's too bad. Seriously.

I've always been curious how Thomson managed to get where they're at.

fprintf

Still here, still reading. Keep up the good work!

ft_critical

It means Psimet loves to suck wheel. Any other explanation of it would be a pointless waste of time.





Anything but, Psimet is fat and loves to eat. If desperate, he would eat his own tyre.

aham23

taco bell or tire PSI? i cant remember either.

later.

jcbenten

Ceramic. Pressure mold. One piece.

logdrum

I am reading. Thanks Mr. Psimet

wanders

Keep 'em coming.

Psimet2001 

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! - I was actually thinking about using ceramic or rather a ceramic insert to harden the drive faces on the Shimano 8/9 spline - leaving the main part of the body as Aluminum - on a ride the other day.

As for ceramic cogs....

chipcom 

Keep em coming...I sleep better knowing that you are here, and not wandering around the forums making a nuisance of yourself.

Psimet2001 

#11 - Take a minute to understand how your threadless headset works. It's funny how many people do not actually understand how it works. Funny because it is, in essence, the simple nature of this design that is one if it's most attractive qualities.

The top cap (on front ends with Aluminum or Steel steerer tubes) has a bolt going through it which threads into a "star" nut which has been pressed into the steerer tube. This bolt has only one purpose...to preload the bearings in the headset.

IT DOES NOT HOLD THE HEADSET TOGETHER! Do NOT over tighten it!

More about headsets tomorrow. Today I have one of them new fangled edumicated In-Gen-Ears starting an internship for me today. I have 1 or 2 days to teach him everything that his school didn't so that we can get something accomplished before the end of summer.

....I'm such a smug ba$tard.

jcbenten

I was trying to think of something with good wear properties. Too expensive to machine one piece (I would think) so just mold it. Do not know what kind of pressures are required though; 1000 ton/sq in?

Another thought is that KMC coats chains with TiN. Why not aluminum cassettes? Might be stress incompatibilities between the metals. (A few years ago the metal stack on DRAM chips where I worked was Ti/TiN/Al-Cu. Or TiN/Ti/Al-Cu.) Gold cassette to go with the gold chain. Schwag!

skinnyone

Stay at a holiday inn the past few weeks?

rollin

Keep up the good work Psimet2001

By the way I think you're just smug enough!