b_young

I haven't had a touring bike before. I have a Kona Sutra on order and looking at the pictures I noticed it was Tubeless. Would this be good, bad or doesn't really matter on a long tour?
Thanks

36Oly_Rider

I thought the Sutra's are tubeless ready? Either way, I'd run tubed. That's just me though. Easier to fix on the road and you don't have to worry about reseating the bead and other stuff required for tubeless.

BlarneyHammer

From what I've been told, the sealant will only hold at pressure under 40 PSI. So it's a great idea if you use pressure less than 40 PSI, but serves no purpose if you run higher pressure than that.

So in short, it's great for MTB tires, worthless for everything else. That isn't to say a tubeless-ready tire is a bad tire, but the tubeless feature is a non-factor.

fietsbob

some of the racers on the trans-america "tour" used tubeless tires ..

they make a mess with all the sealant oozing out before the tire seats..
(we had an air-compressor and 6 hands on the wheel , in the shop)

wschruba

There is quite a bit of superstition about tubeless tires with regards to bicycles. I must imagine it's not unlike the switch that cars underwent...

The bottom line is, using tubeless tires, with tubeless rims (that is, designed specifically for it), prepared properly, leaves you with a system that is at least as dependable as a tubed tire. The oft cited "problem" of having a mess on your hands for a puncture that doesn't seal (requiring a tube) is almost entirely hyperbole...else quoted by someone with no direct experience; there is residual sealant in the tire, but it hurts absolutely nothing slipping a tube inside. You wouldn't attempt to remount a tubeless tire on the side of a road, anymore than you would with a car--you would simply install a tube, and continue on your way.

Only you can decide if the benefits of a tubeless system make sense touring, for you: performance/comfort increase due to lower pressures (beware dinging the rim...), or moderate self-healing ability, with sealant.

spinnaker

I say stick with what you know. a bit lighter and less rolling resistance of tubeless aren't major factors for touring IMHO. Unless possibly you are into ultra light touring.

Rob_E

I commute on tubeless and did a 400-mile, fully loaded tour this spring. 26 x 2.15" Almotion tires. I'd say they are usually at around 30 psi, but for the trip, I didn't have a gauge, just my hand pump, so I pumped them up by feel and how they felt riding.

They worked fine. I packed extra sealant in case I needed it to get them reinflated after the flight to the beginning of my trip, but I didn't need it, and once I'd spent a few days on the road, I sent the sealant back, figuring I could use a spare tube if there was an issue, but there was not.

I've only been using tubeless for about half a year, but I commute on them, so I get some miles in. The only issue I've had is when I let the sealant go dry, and, when I put a little more air in, I broke the seal at the valve stem which resulted in a slow leak. I could still pump them up and ride them, but they needed pumped back up every few miles. Once I got some more sealant in them, they were fine.

It's probably worth adding a 4 oz. bottle of sealant to your kit if you're going on a lengthy trip. Otherwise make sure to start out with enough sealant in the tire, and carry spare tubes.

The up side is that a puncture that would ordinarily cause a flat may seal up. The down side is that it may not seal, and you'll have to put a tube in, which is what you'd have to do anyway, so it doesn't seem like much of a downside to me.

linus

As long as you have tubeless tires and rims, they are fantastic.

I had 6 punctures, but never flat on my last tubeless tires. I had to put a tube in after one of them couldn't seal 3/8" rip on the tire.

However, I do not use them on my touring bike because I have S&S coupled bike that I pack it inside S&S case which I have to deflate the tires when I pack it. I don't want to make mess in my case so I don't use them on my touring bike.

Rob_E

I also have an S & S coupled bike. I deflated the tires and then tightened the valves back up. The bike traveled fine, there was no mess, and the tires reinflated easily at the other end. I had considered the option of removing as much sealant as possible and replacing it at the other end. But I posed this problem on the mountain bike forums, where they had more tubeless experience, and most people agreed that a tire that already had the beads seated and was already sealed up was unlikely to have a problem, so I risked it and didn't have any issues. I have only done this once, however. The other flights this bike made were when I was still running tubes.

linus

I travel oversea every year and airport security always open my case and make mess inside. Even one in 100 chance is enough for me not go with it.

Also Schwalbe extra light #18 tube is lighter than sealant and valve stem so I'm happy with tubes.

Rob_E

Obviously if it's a concern for you, you should do what you're most comfortable with.

I fly about once a year with a bike, but have only recently switched to tubeless, so I don't have the experience to say what the odds of their being a problem is. I will say that the luggage with my bike in it has frequently been opened up, but I've never been left with the impression that they peaked within the tires. I also have never taken a bike outside of the U.S.

I do enjoy tubeless tires, and it's not really a weight issue, although I generally think a tubeless tire will be lighter (and I imagine the difference between tubed and tubeless increase with the size of the tire). It's about how the tires feel, and it's about built-in flat protection without the need for Slime tubes, which I've never cared for. I don't know why sealant in the tire seems more acceptable and less bothersome than slime tubes, but somehow it does. I like it enough that I'd probably jump through a couple of extra hoops to make it possible to keep my tubeless set-up, as long as it didn't compromise the success of my trip. So if I were really concerned that sealant in the tires would create a problem during air travel, I'd just remove the sealant and replace it at the other end. But if you're not noticing much of a benefit to using tubeless, then obviously any effort spent maintaining a tubeless set-up is too much. And the narrower the tire, and the higher pressure the tire, the less benefit I feel I'd be likely to notice. But since the OP is buying a bike that comes tubeless, I'm assuming it's going to have tires that where a tubeless set-up will have some chance of being beneficial.

I do agree with Spinnaker that I wouldn't necessarily want to adopt an unfamiliar technology right before heading out on an extended tour. However the learning curve between tubes and tubeless comes when you're setting up the tires. The OP says that they looked at some pictures and noticed it was tubeless. I don't know what they looked at or if they know if bike will arrive set up as tubeless or if it will arrive ready to be set up tubeless. I wouldn't convert a tubeless tire to tubes unless there was an immediate performance issue. If I didn't want to mess with learning how to set up tubeless tires, I'd just make sure to have some spare tubes and install them the first time any tire maintenance became necessary. If it ain't broke...

However, if the bike comes with tubes installed, and the OP is going to have some time with the bike before hitting the road, and everything comes ready for tubeless, it might be at least educational to set the tires up tubeless, even if that's not the way you'll want to keep them. I went into tubeless with some hesitation, initially building up a 2nd wheelset and converting that to tubeless, knowing that if there were problems, it would be easy to switch back to my tubed wheels. However, once it was done, it had gone so smoothly that I immediately began planning to make my other wheelset tubeless as well.

And, of course, my and linus's discussions of air travel may not be relevant at all if the OPs bike won't be on a plane. But if the OP will be flying, here's where I asked some tubeless riders about flying with tubeless tires: Air travel with tubeless tires- Mtbr.com

b_young

Thanks. It will be a while before I actually fly with the bike. I will eventually do the Southern Tier. But probably in a few more years, so I have time to learn about tubeless. The bike (On the Kona website) shows it comes with tubeless from the factory. I haven't used them. I do tend to over pressure the tires I have just to lower rolling resistance and what I have learned just from this page is that I should not do that with the tubeless or I will probably break the seal. So I guess if the bike feels sluggish I will put tubes in it otherwise I will just learn about tubeless tires. The Sutra is setup as a touring bike from the factory. It just surprised me that it had tubeless tires but maybe that's the new trend.
Kona Sutra

DXchulo

Not sure where you heard that or what the context was (on a specific tire/rim combo?), but it's wrong as a general statement.

I've been riding tubeless on the road bike for over a year now and I generally ride at 90/80 PSI. I've used Stan's and Orange Seal. Both have sealed punctures perfectly.

DXchulo

If you seat the bead first and add sealant later, this isn't an issue.

Your valve stems need removable cores, which don't always come standard on tubeless wheels. I'll never understand that logic.

fietsbob

You still can put an inner tube in a tubeless ready rim and tire , just take the separate stem out of the rim hole.

Id not tour on esoteric gear, playing with it at home is different.

OP has not toured before

I have 50 years of cycling , several long tours in Europe, and help at a bike shop on a popular touring route now.





.. YMMV

Rob_E

Are you getting the Sutra or the Sutra LTD? Because you linked to the standard Sutra, and I'm not seeing the part where it's tubeless. The Sutra LTD is "Tubeless ready" which may not mean that it comes set-up tubeless, but only that the rims and tires are made to work in a tubeless set up. The standard Sutra ships with tubeless-compatible rims, but with Schwalbe Mondial tires, which I don't believe are among Schwalbe's recommended tubeless options.

I think I'd want to try a tubeless set-up on the i23/700cx50 tires of the LTD, as that's a high volume, tubeless compatible set up that probably is made to run at lower pressures. The i19/700x40 set-up is something I'd want to look at more closely. I'm not sure what the highest, acceptable pressure of a tubeless tire is, but I'd be concerned that 40mm wide tire would be have a higher pressure range than what I might be comfortable with. I wouldn't plan on going tubeless with those without some more research. Especially not using the Mondials.

The nice thing is that tubeless generally has lower rolling resistance along with lower pressure, but I wouldn't want to test that out on a tour with tires that aren't made to run tubeless.

ksryder

Does the bike come from the factory already set up tubeless? Or just tubeless-ready? If it's just tubeless ready (which would be my guess) you can run with tubes with no issues. Otherwise you have to take some additional steps to make your tires tubeless, which for me involves taking the wheels to the LBS and letting them deal with it

Regarding your propensity for overinflating -- I would encourage you to experiment with different tire pressures and look at your actual speeds from your computer/phone running Strava/whatever. You might be surprised at how fast your are going when your bike "feels sluggish". I.e., a lot of what makes a ride feel "fast" is road vibration that is being absorbed by our bodies, instead of by our tires.

But bottom line is do what you're comfortable with.

DXchulo

I ran tubeless on my ride from El Paso to Canada. I would definitely do it again. I never had to stop to fix a flat. It was a beautiful thing.

I was carrying the same stuff I carried on my last long tour- 2 tubes and a patch kit. If you get a big enough hole you may need the tubes, but that's only happened to me once before and it really wasn't as big of a mess as I was expecting.

If you're riding in thorn country, tubeless is a huge benefit. The drawbacks of installation are usually overstated, in my experience.

Rob_E

That was my experience. I don't have an air compressor, just a floor pump. My first set seated easily with the floor pump and even kept a small amount of pressure overnight with no sealant. After adding sealant and sloshing it around, they aired right up, no leakage.

My second set were a little more finicky. They weren't airtight enough to push the beads into place with just the floor pump, so I put a tube in, pumped it up until the beads seated, removed the tube, pumped it up again to reseat the bead on the side where I had removed the tube, and then added sealant. With that 2nd wheelset, I had a little sealant bubble through at one or two places along the bead. It didn't make a mess. I just rotated the tire so that the sealant pooled at the problem area, and it sealed up. Wipe the small amount of leaked sealant off the tire, and I was ready to go.

I know fietsbob has more shop experience than me, but if he's seeing mostly messy tubeless set-ups, that doesn't match my experience. But if that shop is using sealant in lieu of a good bead seal, rather than to fill any imperfections in an already sealed tire, that might explain the mess.

fantom1 

Umm, no.

The stories are all warranted, and you calling it myth and hyperbole shows a lack of experience. I speak from experience. When you say they are as reliable, that's true...until something goes wrong. That's like saying all planes are equally reliable until they have a crash. Totally absurd.

I had Campy/Hutchinson tubeless on my racing bike. No way on earth I would use them for touring. Despite what you say, the stories of tubeless being a total PITA are from people who have or have them. Yes they feel amazing on the road, but they can be a nightmare when they puncture or flat. I wouldn't risk it on a tour. GCN did a great video on youtube about manufacturing and tolerance problems related to tubeless. Problems that are just now being solved.
If someone is really worried about thorns, just put sealant in the tubes and/or get a pair of Schwalbes.

Maybe in the future tubeless will be reliable when Mavic makes these available in a touring build with larger tire, but for now, especially on a tour, its not worth the potential problems with little upside.

wschruba

My experience is born from working (specifically. I also use [them]) almost daily with them. There are issues, as noted, but nothing that would stop someone from using them, if they wanted. Nobody is telling the OP to take out untested (mounting, dismounting, etc...) equipment (would you?). All of my tubeless setups (all 3 sets of wheels, among different bikes, by the way) can be mounted and dismounted by hand, with no great feats of strength. 1 can be beaded with the most anemic of pumps (WTB ChrisCross rims [made to UST specifications, no certification], Maxxis ReFuse tires, in case you're wondering), while the others can be seated with a floor pump with minimal work. Re-seating a tire tubeless on the road is not a priority; if necessary, I simply install a tube. I chose my equipment carefully for what works, within the confines that I am comfortable using them.

Despite this, tire sealant will not destroy your bare hands, should you get some on you--your kit is another story, but who tours in kit? Most sealants wash out pretty easily, too, with some water/soap. My fenders do a great job of keeping sealant spewing punctures off the bike, by the way. If no fenders is a priority for you, maybe tubeless tires are no good. All the sealant out of the tire, and not holding air? No problem, as above...just install a tube. There some sealant around on the bike/rim, and I want to remove it? I've got a bandanna tucked in my bag that I can use for that (or something else!).

Your comment about no standards is duly noted, but I wouldn't hold your breath...the market is becoming more striated since the introduction of UST (which is free to use, but requires a certification), not less. The only guarantee is that there is no guarantee...which isn't all that different from tubed tires, is it? I can rattle off several rim/tire combinations that are problematic for mounting that aren't tubeless. Likewise, I've had tubeless tires that were a loose fit on my rims (easily dismounted from the bead shelf) that were removed and sold. Such is life.

*edit* to add to the OP's discussion, the regular Sutra is equipped with tubeless ready rims (TLR), but probably not the tires (which would be designated Liteskin/Microskin if they were). Whether or not the rim comes taped is also up in the air--bet not, and be happy if it is...and remember you'll need to buy a pack of valves, if they weren't included with the bike. The LTD does come with both tubeless rims and tires, but most manufacturers ship them with tubes installed.

markjenn

As others have said, I'm not seeing where you are getting the info that the Sutra is tubeless (or even tubeless ready). The Sutra is a $1400 LHT and 520 competitor where tubes are still very much the standard.

Not sure what you mean by "over pressure the tires", but I would never run higher than sidewall max. And the conventional wisdom these days has changed to conclude that optimal pressure for rolling resistance may actually be quite a bit lower than sidewall max, depending on weight and loads. In any event, for touring, you want to a decent compromise between rolling resistance and compliance or the bike will beat you to death over long miles.

- Mark

Rob_E

No way would I use racing wheels on a tour. That's with or without tubes. But there are all kinds of tourers and all kinds of bikes used to make those trips, so I'm sure there are plenty of people touring on some low width, high pressure tires. That's going to be touchier combination, but the OP is talking about much wider, lower pressure tires.

I also don't understand what you consider to be the risks. One of the reasons I jumped into tubeless, once I saw how easy it was to set them up, was because I saw it as having no real risk. Not that it's impossible for a tubeless tire to fail, but rather that a tubeless tire that fails can be remedied the exact same way as a tubed tire that fails: put a new tube in it. The only risk is that I might have to touch some sealant in the process. I don't consider contact with sealant to be a high risk activity.

That video just shows how great tubeless is, right? They talk about some of the problems they had to conquer, but, again, those problems seem specific to low volume, high pressure tires. And this video doesn't show those problems. It just shows a successful tubeless implementation that seals up no matter what the tester throws at them. I would have to think that reliability goes up as volume goes up and pressure goes down.

So I wouldn't feel the need to wait for the magic, tubeless, touring tire, because most touring tires are already higher volume and lower pressure than road tires, and some, like the 50mm tire on the Sutra LTD, are probably much closer to mountain bike tires than road tires, and it seems like mountain bikes don't have the problems you associate with your road tubeless. Although, that's guesswork on my part since I don't know what your actual problems are, since your example is a video of flawlessly performing tubeless tires.

I don't know, though. I have only been running tubeless for a few months. My only flat was easily addressed with a little sealant. Maybe I'll have that catastrophic failure that will make regret going tubeless. I'm just not clear what that failure will look like. I suspect it will look like me having to put a tube in my tire to get to my next stop, which doesn't sound that catastrophic to me.

chrisx

If you have tubeless ready rims, mount some tires up tubeless. One more skill to learn. The learning curve is high, but worth the trouble. I am on the Washington coast now, I have tubes in my tires on my Stans arch rims. If I keep going south I will mount them tubeless with Orange Seal.


Tubeless is good, no reason not to.

Marcus_Ti

Oh boy, a tubeless thread...