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Do tires really need to be "tubeless" to run tubeless?

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Do tires really need to be "tubeless" to run tubeless?

Old 04-30-19, 10:11 AM
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chas58
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Do tires really need to be "tubeless" to run tubeless?

Do tires really need to be "tubeless" to run tubeless?

Some, but not all tubeless tires have a built in tube, so that they hold air without sealant. But there are a fair number of tubeless tires whose carcass is basically the same as a tubed tire.

For instance: for the Continental 5000
"The new tubeless tyre differs by having an inner liner that provides an airtight chamber and the bead is constructed with a softer outer material to ease installation."

Or Compass aka Renee Herse changed the bead shape a little for tubeless (which doesn't make much of a difference running hookless), but that is about it.

Doesn't sound like much of a difference between tubeless and non tubeless tires...
More important seems to be the wheel - especially the rim bed.
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Old 04-30-19, 10:27 AM
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As long as the carcass will hold air, it's all about the bead forming a good seal with the rim.
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Old 04-30-19, 10:36 AM
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some tubeless tires use a bead that is more stretch resistant so they don't blow off. For gravel and cyclocross I'd worry less about this and I've set up nontubeless tires as tubeless but I'd be wary on the road with higher pressures
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Old 04-30-19, 11:09 AM
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Yeah, I wouldn't go over 60psi unless I was sure about the bead interface with a hooked rim.

It does seem that the wheel, specifically the rim bed (and hooked rim for higher pressures) are the most important thing for good tubeless performance. I do know that some (Schwalbe for instance) have a very tight no stretch bead. Others not so much.
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Old 04-30-19, 12:12 PM
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I have no confidence in anything that is not fully tubeless compatible. And I don't ride on things I don't have full confidence in. So for me, the answer is I wouldn't try it.

Seems to me that most of the reports of tubeless problems I have seen involved using non-tubeless compatible components
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Old 04-30-19, 12:28 PM
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Maybe I got lucky, but I mounted some well used Serfas Sheriff tires on a new set of tubeless rims and they seated and sealed very painlessly. The bead locks in very solidly and takes some effort to unseat even at 0psi on the tire. Honestly, they hold pressure better than the tubeless ready tires on another bike. Pressure is fairly low being that they are 52mm tires, but I'm happy. Of course, YMMV.
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Old 05-01-19, 01:21 PM
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Which tubeless tires have a built in tube? IMHO this is a try at your own risk venture.

Last edited by grubetown; 05-01-19 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 05-01-19, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by grubetown
Which tubeless tries have a built in tube? IMHO this is a try at your own risk venture.
Vittoria, panaracer, compass, donnelly off the top of my head. All have a rubber coating that supposed to be impermeable for tubeless use.
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Old 05-01-19, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by grubetown
Which tubeless tries have a built in tube? IMHO this is a try at your own risk venture.
The shorter list may be which don't. It saves close to 100gr per tire.

to be clear - its not a complete "tube" but "an inner liner that provides an airtight chamber" that allows you to pump up a tire and hold air without sealant. Probably good for the casual cyclist who may let the sealant run dry - the tire will still work fine and hold air (if not punctured). Without this type of construction, you'll know pretty quickly when your sealant runs dry.
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Old 05-01-19, 02:14 PM
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Panaracer doesn't have an inner "tube" for any of their tubeless tires in the sense that Continental and others are making their tires. They use a different rubber coating/compound but it adds no weight or stiffness to the casing. Compass doesn't do anything to the casing for their tubeless tires - the tubeless update was specifically for how tight and round the bead was in addition to a slight change in the shape of the bead face.

Kenda and Schwalbe as well as Continental road all have much thicker rubber to aid in preventing sealant weeping through the tire but it's not necessary to make the tire air-tight. It would be a very poorly made tire that did not have an inherently airtight casing - most of the issues with integrity have to do with the bead/rim bed, bead/beadseat interface and the valve hole. No tire is losing air through the casing.
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Old 05-01-19, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot
Panaracer doesn't have an inner "tube" for any of their tubeless tires in the sense that Continental and others are making their tires. They use a different rubber coating/compound but it adds no weight or stiffness to the casing. Compass doesn't do anything to the casing for their tubeless tires - the tubeless update was specifically for how tight and round the bead was in addition to a slight change in the shape of the bead face.

Kenda and Schwalbe as well as Continental road all have much thicker rubber to aid in preventing sealant weeping through the tire but it's not necessary to make the tire air-tight. It would be a very poorly made tire that did not have an inherently airtight casing - most of the issues with integrity have to do with the bead/rim bed, bead/beadseat interface and the valve hole. No tire is losing air through the casing.
Huh, I assumed they did since the couple guys I know running them tubeless don't have the old sealant seepage crosshatching pattern you used to see.
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Old 05-03-19, 11:09 AM
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Well, that(what spoonbot said) is what Compass said, initially at least. Maybe they did more later that they didn't publish?

I have lots of tires that don't hold air without sealant. I was surprised at how well the Schwalbe tires hold air without sealant - that is the only tire I have that has an airtight casing. With a high performance supple tire, the sidewall is just there to hold the tread in place. ;-)
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Old 05-03-19, 11:15 AM
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They didn't. Your tires are losing air at the bead interface or at the valve.
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