cat0020

Rad Power Bikes gives up on European e-bike market, focuses on US instead

https://electrek.co/2023/07/10/rad-p...on-us-instead/

Smaug1

Probably a smart move:

• Euro laws limit speeds to 25 kph (15.5 mph) so their bikes would need "firmer" firmware limits
• Euro laws limit motors to 250 W, so Euro-spec bikes would need different motors
• Hub motor bikes aren't popular in Europe

Also, they probably found they had stretched themselves too thin, too quickly. Rather than let customer service and product languish in the USA, they stepped back from Europe. Fine.

I liken this move to what Suzuki has done with cars in the US over the years. The step in with a model to compete with the bigger Japanese automakers. They hope it has something they don't. Remember the Kizashi, which was bigger than a compact, smaller than a midsize, and kind of sporty? I was thinking of one for my next car, but they had pulled out of the US market again by the time I was ready to buy. They just can't compete in this market, so they refocused on their traditional markets.

Same with Rad. Competition is fierce in the eBike market in Europe.

adlai

I’m about halfway through the article and I can identify the issues with the e-bikes.

So problem number one: they are mail order kits and often are assembled by the end-user. The end-user often makes mistakes in assembly, like not properly tightening the front wheel. I’ve done this before myself, and I’m somewhat experienced. I can’t imagine there is much that can be done here. I guess radpower could have “recommended” bike shops. They could also just stop with the DTC model entirely and only go through dealers which would ensure product consistency. At the very least they need to include a clear checklist.

Problem two: the brakes. This again is easy to see how this becomes a problem because car brakes last tens of thousands of miles and ebike brakes might last a few hundred. The extra weight/power of the ebike means more brake pad wear. I’ve noticed this myself. But more importantly, with disc brakes it isn’t immediately obvious that the brake pads are worn. With my rim brakes, I can quickly glance at the brakes before I ride to see how worn the pads are. With disc brakes I have to peer in much closer to the disc brakes and disassembly also is more complicated and a little confusing because there are some different standards.

Solution I think would be to include more car-like brakes. Like, make disc brake pads physically larger with more surface area so that they wear out more slowly. I’m not really sure why disc brake pads are as small as they are.

Finally, the fact that direct drive hub motors are largely out and geared hub motors are so popular means more brake pad wear. I like how direct drive hub motors with regen braking can reduce brake wear. I think it should also be possible to program into direct drive motor controllers some safety protocols, kind of like my car’s forward collision assist which will apply brakes in extreme circumstances. I think e-bikes could be programmed with a gyroscope and speed sensor so that when the bike is going at certain speeds the bike sets the direct drive hub to slow the bike down automatically.

BenzFanatic

I had the same thoughts assembling my Aventure. Pedals, front tire, and handlebars; mess any of them up and it could be catastrophic in the right circumstances.

Even taking that out of the equation, unless the bike is falling apart at 20mph even assembled by pros, I think most of these lawsuits are witch hunts. Stuff happens.

tallbikeman

I read an article a while back detailing folks trying to sue bicycle corporations such as Trek and Specialized for carbon frames that broke and hurt or killed people. These corporations are set up in such a way that lawsuits slide off of them and into the sewer. They had a lawsuit stick finally in Australia and I know that despite the decades of trying they have had little success in suing any American bicycle sales outfit. On another note I am not a fan of bicycle disc brakes. They brake well with minimum hand pressure but they always eventually start dragging when not braking. I have often heard other bicyclists discs dragging as I rode near them. I have to adjust the two bicycles that have disc brakes in our household many more times than I ever have to look at the rim brake equipped bicycles. I believe that bicycle disc brakes are an immature technology that really shouldn't be on bicycles until they fix this problem.

Smaug1

I agree that they eventually drag, but it is more of a noisy annoyance than something that drains efficiency significantly.

I think it stems from the fact that the discs are so thin. I notice when commuting on my Aventon Level.2 that when I hit a sharp-edged bump, it starts. I apply the brakes and it stops.

What makes up for that is how well they work in the wet and mud, where rim brakes can be death traps.

cat0020

I've worked in different bike shops long enough that I've seen different types of frame failures from operator negligence to honest material defects.
There are legit cases and there are also those who are just trying to take advantage of bike companies.
Company like TREK & Specialized that have been in business for decades, probably get sued hundreds if not thousand times a year.
They have teams of lawyers and large enough legal department that are ready to respond to each case they receive.
For a single case to "finally stick" from Australia, I wonder how many other cases have not stuck and why?
Carbon frames are not everlasting.
Carbon frame failures are often catastophic when they occur, warning signs may have been subtle but without proper inspection prior to riding,
a carbon frame can easily go from one piece to fail in a single irregularity on the road surface at high enough speed.

In the case of Rad lawsuit, it seems that operator clearly exceeded the weight capacity meant for the bike and took more risks than the bike was designed to handle.
Whether the jury in trial would see that or Rad would settle out of trial is yet to be determine.
Whatever the outcome, I feel that when accident occur the operator is likely the first at fault.
Machines & vehicles are designed for their designated purpose and operation with clear limits.
Operators decide how much risk they are willing to take.

tallbikeman

From what I've read and tried to understand about this issue of responsibility for carbon frames that failed, some on their very first ride, the big US sales companies structure themselves in such a way that they are not responsible for manufacturing. If you go to the country of manufacture some types of product liability lawsuits are not allowed or the company that made the product for the big US sales outfit cannot be found. The list of legal evasion stunts is endless. If you try to force the US sales outfit to be responsible they slide out from under it with the "We didn't build this, company XYZ built it, talk to them". This legally sticks and people end up dead or injured for life with no one liable for obvious faulty product. There is growing legal and political pressure to make the end sellers here in the US responsible for obvious product failures but I don't think we are there yet. So our cheap foreign made bicycles have a price we pay for having them. No real product liability safety net for injured customers. Instead American taxpayers yet again pay for the medical and disability payments these injured folks have to have while wealthy corporations responsible for bad product skate away with wonderful profits. In my time I've known lots of people who carped about the unfair legal system that preyed on businesses. A few of those folks ended up with lawsuits based on bad products or injuries from various corporations and don't you know they availed themselves of all the legal ways they could to get money out of those same preyed upon businesses.There is a lot of hypocrisy out there.

tallbikeman

I have ridden rim brakes for 60 years. My first bike had steel rims so the rim brakes were poor. When the steel rims were wet the brakes really didn't work. I soon got aluminum rims and the braking situation improved dramatically. When riding in the rain all the additional braking of disc brakes is limited by adhesion issues with the tires. It is easy to get a good rim brake to slide the rear tire in the rain and I've even had front rim brakes that could slide a front wheel on a wet day. I've used good quality bicycle drum brakes and they worked the same rain or shine, no performance difference and are the ideal when it comes to predictable performance. Disc brakes are so powerful but in wet conditions one has to be so careful not to put yourself on the ground with them. Like you I have a set of disc brakes on a RAD City bike and yes if you can hear the brake rubbing just check out how much by picking up that end of the bike, spin the wheel and see how many revolutions it will make. Surprising how much these brakes are wasting your precious energy. I adjust these brakes regularly because they just drag more and more over time unless you adjust them. I only tolerate them because they are on a great e-bike and the battery negates the drag with its power. Wish it came with rim brakes though. I've had a bunch of bikes with disc brakes and I won't buy another one so equipped until the manufacturers can make a disc brake easy to adjust and reliably free from rubbing issues. So far bicycle disc brakes for me are an immature technology and should be avoided. In all the years I've ridden rim brakes they have always gotten me stopped in emergency stops in time and I have avoided being run over by cars and trucks several times because of their good performance.

3alarmer 

Rad Power Bikes will certify its e-bikes to UL standards

...I guess this will dome as news to many, having never considered they were never UL certified to begin with.

2old

AFAIK, this certification is relatively new.

3alarmer 

https://www.ul.com/news/panasonic-re...-certification

cat0020

I suspect with popularity of ebikes, many new riders not familiar with quick release wheel operation,
combined with higher speeds of ebikes, heavier in comparison vs regular bicycles;
mishaps likely occur without rider knowledge, lead to lawsuits.

Man files lawsuit against Rad Power Bikes over front wheel disengaging

https://bicycleretailer.com/industry...el-disengaging

linberl

Imo all e-bike companies should have literature in the manual AND a sticker on the bike stating that service is required every "x" miles. People who know how to wrench their own bikes won't end up suing because of a lack of maintenance, and people who don't know how to maintain an e-bike need to take responsibility for getting it serviced regularly. If you don't know how to work on your car you take it in for service, that's a normal expectation. Needs to be the same expectation with customers re e-bikes. And if you don't have the service records to show you did, don't bother suing for anything other than a broken frame. People seem to think bikes can be used without taking care of them regularly, but regular riders (like the people here) not only service regularly but also do safety checks before they ride. Many e-bikes like Rad are sold to new bike users.

2old

Well, there's another for Rad on the way, a class action suit because a rider employed his front disc brake suddenly in order to avoid a collision with a car, and the front wheel came off, causing him to be thrown to the ground injuring him. As an aside, it seems as though there are more than a couple of instances of front wheels loosening on disc-equipped with skewer bikes. It happened to me, but I was off roading and thought the skewer must have been "opened" by riding through thick brush. Anyway, my future bikes will have through axles. The venture capitalists who invested $350,000,000 and/or Rad's insurers must have anxiety.

kayakindude

Mine came loose a few months back and I only realized it when the front started rattling. Weird part is you would think the disc brake would rub on a loose wheel. No issues since I tightened it but I do check that and all bolts monthly because something always loosens a little, especially the fender attachments, probably from the off road jostling.

That being said I wouldn't trade my Rover for the world, simply the most versatile and enjoyable bike I've ever owned, keeping in mind I own 17, from folders to tandems. It has become a vehicle for me.

The part I don't get...how did that wheel dislodge? Even loose the weight of the bike should keep it in place?

2old

I've had it happen twice, and discovered the problem like you did, wheel wobble. In both instances the lawyer lips saved me. The problem for RAD (IMO) is you never know what to expect with
know-nothing American jurors who seem to enjoy paying out someone else's money.

mpetry912 

yes, and with plaintiff's arguments made by tort attorneys working on contingency fee basis.

that said Rad needs to put out a retrofit with a bolt on fitment replacing the front QR with a 6mm allen bolt attachment.

/markp

tallbikeman

My wife's Rad City had a front skewer come loose. She noticed before a ride that the front wheel was loose so I tightened the quick release. I assumed this happened due to handling or rubbing up against something. We have not had any other times it came loose. The lawyer lips probably saved us some heartache on that instance.

2old

This may be a complex issue which can be related to the front dropouts (facing slightly forward, slightly backward or vertical) and type of closure on the quick release mechanism (FME, some feel like you push them until they're tight while others - Shimano - seem to close "completely").

campfire

Schwinn clips are a better answer to this problem. Compared to lawyer's lips they're quicker to use and they'll hold the axle in place if the skewer snaps.

Doc_Wui

Only lawyers can afford lawyer lips? Yikes, they cost like $2-4 a unit on amazon/ebay. I should stop by the bike shop and see what they want. I need to put them on my grandkid's bike, which has disks/skewers, I should also teach her how to use the skewers, Actually, I ordered a bag of 50 from China for 8 dollars.

There's a long discussion in the main forum here about disks and skewers. I am surprised that so many riders there think they are dangerous. I've always aspired to have QR skewers on my bikes. Disks too. I have flipped them so the levers are on the non-rotor side. I also sure like tires where I can break the bead and pull them off without tools.

2old

Mr Campfire, I agree about the "Schwinn Clips", and they're on the 1984 model that I restored for my granddaughter. However, unless there is a bicycle Earthquake, I doubt they will ever be popular again, possibly because someone will forget to install them , have an accident and sue.

campfire

Nice spokes. They look pleasantly festive for a kids bike.

tallbikeman

I have an 80 or 81 Schwinn Sports Tourer and it came equipped with these safety bits. I don't use them but at my own peril since the front wheel is held by a Quick Release skewer.