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New Disk Trucker out now

Old 06-24-20, 10:51 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by ndrose View Post
Nice catch. I wonder which is correct.
I am guessing that they grabbed a pair of wheels to throw on a prototype frame for the photo without thinking about it.
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Old 06-24-20, 10:59 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Twang -O- Doom View Post
Well maybe not greatly reduced cost.
I was just commenting on the fact that the new Disc Trucker is $325 more than the standard LHT. Not worth it imo but choices are good !
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Old 06-24-20, 11:10 AM
  #28  
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Being one who rarely sees change for the better, I was expecting to dislike the changes. I don't. Brifters, mechanical discs, more stack, I like. I am neutral on TA. I doubt anyone will suffer durability/reliability issues with the Sora and Alivio stuff. I think I like the new bars as well.

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Old 06-24-20, 11:29 AM
  #29  
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I'm starting to consider something I haven't considered for a long time, namely buying a hobby bike as factory built and not as a frameset. I haven't bought factory specced hobby bike in... 2013 I think. Utility bikes don't count, because utility bikes are typically cheaper as factory builds.

I honestly have no big criticisms about any of the component choices. The only nagging thing I have is the bar width which is 480mm in 62cm size. My current bar is 440mm wide and it's quite ok. Then again I did have the FSA Metropolis bar on my Kona and it was the bees knees so a wider bar might not actually be a bad thing. In fact the added width may allow for a shorter stem.

The one thing I'd probably change is replace all the spokes with DT Alpine III's because I'm guessing the original spokes are straight gauge. But the wheelset in general seems pretty ok. Alex Adventurer 2's are pinned (boo!) but they are tubeless ready (yay!).
The Novatec hubs I've serviced have been decent quality and the bearings have been generic = cheap. The servicing was also really easy even without special tools.

Interesting. I'll have to pay off my violin to my wife before I can get a new bike but after I've done that we'll see.
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Old 06-24-20, 12:39 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by mplsbiker View Post
When Trek made this same, drivetrain, change to the new 520 there was a huge thread out where without expectation everyone said that going to Sora/Alivio was cheap move on their part and a money grab (They also increased the price). I wonder if the backlash is going to continue as the few remaining true "touring" frames follow suit. Maybe the LHT/DT halo will start to wear off.
At least Trek includes front and rear racks in their price for the 520 and the price is still $300+ less Canadian then the disc trucker.
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Old 06-24-20, 01:59 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by ndrose View Post
Nice catch. I wonder which is correct.
in the vid, the two surly folks do specifically say 36, and they are Alex Adventurer 2 rims, same rims on my wifes Troll. 36ers and a pretty tough rim all in all, brake rim capable which Shirley adds some weight.
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Old 06-24-20, 02:07 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Aaaaand they've eliminated the frame's Rohloff anti-rotation bolt hole.


you know though, to be realistic the number of people slapping Rohlofs on LHTs or even Trolls must be probably pretty darn small...so I get removing this.
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Old 06-24-20, 02:44 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Aaaaand they've eliminated the frame's Rohloff anti-rotation bolt hole...
Thanks (noticed it but failed to include in earlier comments). What I didn't notice is that the new dropouts extend well into the seatstays now, especially on the NDS for brake torque stiffening. I think I was mistaken about the flat mount brake mounts reducing frameset weight; with the new rear dropouts, 4 additional fork bosses, and longer cable/housing to accommodate brifters on the Complete bike, I believe the 2020 DT gained some weight.

Evidently the marketing/design folks at QBP (parent of Surly and Salsa - their cubicles are probably only 20 feet apart in the Minneapolis headquarters) think IGH/Alfine/Rohloff devotees would be better served by the Salsa Marrakesh (MK), with it's swinging rear dropouts for chain tensioning requirement of the IGH. This would make sense except for the fact that with 2020 DT frameset price increase it is now nearly the same as MK ($725 vs 799).

The cost/value comparison is worse if you are shopping for a bicycle (the majority of bicyclists), since a DT at $1675 is actually more expensive than two still available 2019 models of MK at $1499 and 1599. Once the 2019 models are sold, DT will be slightly less expensive than the 2020 MK at $1799, however when you add racks to DT so that components are comparable, DT will be same or slightly higher cost than MK. Disappointing shift as in the past Salsa was always Surly's fancier, pricier cousin, and Surly was the value choice.

Whether you choose DT or MK, with sales tax you're paying nearly $2,000 for a bicycle with racks and rather low level parts. You can buy an electric motorbike which could be used for touring now for about half as much. My guess is a lot of people would choose the bike you don't have to pedal for half the price.

I rewatched the YT video from #1. I noticed it states LHT started in 2007, which is not quite true. The LHT frameset started in 2004, the LHT Complete (bicycle) started in 2007 along with a few other Surly models, when they transitioned from being solely a frame/frameset seller to a bicycle seller. At 1:33 we see how tight the front thru axle lever fit is WRT rack and fender mounts. At 2:50 we see the front flat brake mount tubes nearly bisect the NDS fork leg twice (not visible from Surly site images).

Reviewing the geometry tables again, I see the 26" DT BB drop went from 47 to 50mm, and the 700c BB drop from 78 to 80mm. All other things being equal, this should reduce standover height (SOH) 2-3mm, or 1/8"! However, if you compare 2019 700c DTs to 2020 700c DT, the listed SOHs are identical. Math error? On 26" frames SOH increases 8mm on 42 and 46cm, but decreases 8-12mm on 50 to 56 frame sizes (58/26 no longer available). Thus again I question the accuracy of the YT video claim of "decreased SOH" since geometry tables indicate this is the case in only 4 of 11 frame/wheel sizes offered (50/26, 52/26, 54/26 and 56/26 are the only ones with decreased SOH).

Reach is 0-6mm shorter on the 2020 DTs depending on size. Stack increased 18-25mm depending on size. STA and HTA unchanged on all size/wheel combinations. Fork ATC and rake unchanged for 2020.

https://surlybikes.com/bikes/legacy/..._2012#overview

https://surlybikes.com/bikes/disc_trucker
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Old 06-24-20, 02:50 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by PedalingWalrus View Post
Honestly the most logical change should be to drop the word Disc and continue with the iconic LHT. After all, disc brakes are not a novelty anymore and naming your bike Disc Trucker or Eagle shifter or Pinion Nomad is just not cool (btw I own the light blue disc trucker)
I agree. And if Surly wants to live up to their reputation of being versatile, they should sell just one type of Trucker frame and make it accept both disc and V-brakes.
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Old 06-24-20, 04:24 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Aaaaand they've eliminated the frame's Rohloff anti-rotation bolt hole.
I don't know a thing about how Rohloffs are installed but in their blog post it has the following.

"Rohloff internally geared hub compatible using the upper rack mount on the NDS dropout. The boss is sized to mimic an M6 bolt head and index perfectly with an OEM2 axle plate. A chain tensioner will be necessary."

perhaps a cheaper way of installing it?
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Old 06-24-20, 06:50 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by seeker333 View Post
...
rewatched the YT video from #1 . I noticed it states LHT started in 2007, which is not quite true. The LHT frameset started in 2004, the LHT Complete (bicycle) started in 2007 along with a few other Surly models, when they transitioned from being solely a frame/frameset seller to a bicycle seller. ...
Just a minor point, the LHT was only available as a frame in 2004 as you correctly noted, but Cross Check was available as a complete bike or frame.

I bought a LHT frame in 2004, still have the Surly catalog on my hard drive.
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Old 06-24-20, 08:24 PM
  #37  
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They sure pick some sickly-looking colors for LHT/DT's. Sora/Alivio seems good enough, quality-wise. I had old Tiagra 3x9 brifters, worked OK except gear cables stuck out sideways, interfering with handlebar bags/stuff on top of front rack. Sora fixes that. Sure would be nice if Sora made 3x9 hydraulic brifters. The new (slightly) slanted top tube might make it easier to fit a Thudbuster seat post. New handlebar looks interesting.
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Old 06-24-20, 09:09 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by PedalingWalrus View Post
Honestly the most logical change should be to drop the word Disc and continue with the iconic LHT. After all, disc brakes are not a novelty anymore and naming your bike Disc Trucker or Eagle shifter or Pinion Nomad is just not cool (btw I own the light blue disc trucker)
Except that they make one LHT frame without disc brake mounts, and one with.
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Old 06-24-20, 10:26 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by speyfitter View Post
At least Trek includes front and rear racks in their price for the 520 and the price is still $300+ less Canadian then the disc trucker.
I don't know what the current 520 is like but the one my wife bought in 2014 or 2015 was and still is a bad bike.

Really weird and aggressive geometry to the extent that we had to install a steerer extender to compensate for the race length cut steerer.

The wheels it had were the worst wheels I've ever seen in a bike, period. Unsealed shimano hubs were ok, but the spokes were straight gauge and strangle weak, nipples were of such an odd size that my multisize nipple wrench would not work on them properly and they were almost seized from the factory. Rims were also a disaster. You could not mount a marathon plus on them without soapy water. The tire would not snap in place even with significant overpressure.

​​​​​Also max tire size of 37mm with fenders and less space in the fork than in the frame is something I find laughable.

So if the 520 still suffers from the same issues it did, it could be free for all I care, it's still a hard pass.
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Old 06-24-20, 10:48 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Twang -O- Doom View Post
..."Rohloff internally geared hub compatible using the upper rack mount on the NDS dropout. The boss is sized to mimic an M6 bolt head and index perfectly with an OEM2 axle plate. A chain tensioner will be necessary." perhaps a cheaper way of installing it?
The Surly quote is not quite accurate. An odd third boss was cast in the NDS dropout in-line with the vertical axle slot, so that if you screwed a M6 bolt in from the inboard side, the head of the bolt would supposedly interface properly with a Rohloff OEM2 axle plate. Additionally you had to install a Rohloff chain tensioner into the derailleur mount on the DS dropout. The "Rohloff hole" is visible in the upper image in #25 , red arrow points to it while partially obscuring the other two bosses (enlarge for clearer view). Surly's "Rohloff hole" likely made for a very neat Speedhub installation into the DT, and yes, it probably was the least costly way of mounting Speedhub of the 3 or 4 options Rohloff offered.

The NDS dropout had two other bosses paired with two bosses on DS dropout, for rack and fender mounts, but the NDS upper boss could not be used with the OEM2 axle plate as it was located too close to the normal axle resting position. Whoever wrote the quoted description did not understand the subject well.

Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
Just a minor point, the LHT was only available as a frame in 2004 as you correctly noted, but Cross Check was available as a complete bike or frame. I bought a LHT frame in 2004, still have the Surly catalog on my hard drive.
You are indeed correct. Thank you for pointing this out. I see Surly still keeps old catalogs online:

https://surlybikes.com/info_hole/catalogs

https://surlybikes.com/uploads/downloads/Surly2004.pdf
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Old 06-25-20, 04:45 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by seeker333 View Post
Surly's "Rohloff hole" likely made for a very neat Speedhub installation into the DT...
Yes, it did.



As you said, at today's MSRPs, the Salsa Marakesh is now the E-ticket for IGH builds.
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Old 06-25-20, 07:11 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Yes, it did.



....
Thanks for posting, I had some trouble following the discussion but the photo adds total clarity.
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Old 06-27-20, 06:34 AM
  #43  
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One thing I was not too thrilled about is the flat mount brake interface. It only allows a 160mm rotor front and back and cannot be adapted for a larger rotor.

I used to use a 203mm rotor on my LHT back in the day and now use a 180mm. Still it's not allowed by the manufacturer so you could say that nothing has really changed as the maximum allowed rotor size has always been 160mm.

Also one thing that makes me not worry about the 160mm front rotor is the fact that if I get the new disc trucker I actually have two rotors I can use. My LHT has a rear rim brake I simply do not use all that much because it sucks. So all the heat I've been generating has been been going to one rotor only and that's not optimal.

Also I know from personal experience that you can heat up a mechanical disc rotor to between 300 and 400 degrees celsius without loss of braking power or brake fade. I haven't managed it myself but my wife who occasionally has bad bad braking technique properly blued her rotors in the alps.

​​​​​
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Old 06-27-20, 12:47 PM
  #44  
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No more pump peg.
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Old 06-28-20, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by phughes View Post
No more pump peg.
Thank you, I failed to notice this. It seems appropriate for 2020 DT as hardly anyone uses a frame pump nowadays, since there are easier, ground-anchored alternatives that will fit inside a bag. I expect Surly will continue with pump pegs on it's more traditional LHT.

Now if they could also delete the seatstay spare spoke carrier, that would be good too.

Last edited by seeker333; 06-28-20 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 06-28-20, 01:50 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by seeker333 View Post
Thank you, I failed to notice this. It seems appropriate for 2020 DT as hardly anyone uses a frame pump nowadays, since there are easier, ground-anchored alternatives that will fit inside a bag. I expect Surly will continue with pump pegs on it's more traditional LHT.

Now if they could also delete the seatstay spare spoke carrier, that would be good too.
ground anchored type pumps are so superior to frame type pumps, I'm for one never going back. I'm sure most people who have used both feel the same.
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Old 06-28-20, 04:45 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by seeker333 View Post
Thank you, I failed to notice this. It seems appropriate for 2020 DT as hardly anyone uses a frame pump nowadays, since there are easier, ground-anchored alternatives that will fit inside a bag. I expect Surly will continue with pump pegs on it's more traditional LHT.

Now if they could also delete the seatstay spare spoke carrier, that would be good too.
Yeah, I don't use mine, but I may at some point. I have a Topek Road Morph mounted on the seat tube, between it and the fender. It fits because I have 26 inch rims. I may use the peg to mount something else though, so I am glad it is there, and of course I do have an old frame pump I can put on the bike if I want. As for spoke holders, I have spokes held there, and I don't give it a second thought, but I may when I need a spoke. They aren't in the way of anything, so I see no harm in them being there.
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Old 06-28-20, 08:16 PM
  #48  
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I like the colour, my bike is black and although it does look good, a safety colour is what is needed these days for touring on the road with idiot drivers around. After all, these triangle bikes were first known a s The Safety Bike, but being black is no safe colour. I wear yellow all the time riding, and since I have being doing this for the last 2 years, have had no further impacts between me and cars.
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Old 06-29-20, 10:31 AM
  #49  
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Agree that the frame mounted pumps are not as good, but I still carry some of those pumps on some of my bikes since I have the pumps. Those are the bikes that are rarely more than 15 miles from home, so if I had a flat and could not get the tire fully pumped up, I can get enough pressure to get home. My road bike lacked a pump peg, but I use a velcro strap to hold the pump against the top tube, that works just as good as a pump peg. Even my rando bike that has a pump peg, I also use a velcro strap and if that bike goes for a long ride I can add a Lezyne Micro Floor Drive to the saddle bag.

Originally Posted by seeker333 View Post
...
Now if they could also delete the seatstay spare spoke carrier, that would be good too.
Not sure why you want it gone.

Originally Posted by ricrunner View Post
I like the colour, my bike is black and although it does look good, a safety colour is what is needed these days for touring on the road with idiot drivers around. ....
Agree that highly visable colors are best, but when it comes to the bike frame, there is not much surface area, the panniers are a much better place to show high vis colors. I initially thought that a bright color frame would be safer, but after I bought a yellow frame, I concluded it did not add much.

I have however seen a couple fluorescent orange frames that really stood out on a carbon road bike with no panniers or bags, the carbon bike I am thinking of had really fat tubes so there was more surface area to show the paint.
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Old 06-29-20, 02:13 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by ricrunner View Post
I like the colour, my bike is black and although it does look good, a safety colour is what is needed these days for touring on the road with idiot drivers around. After all, these triangle bikes were first known a s The Safety Bike, but being black is no safe colour. I wear yellow all the time riding, and since I have being doing this for the last 2 years, have had no further impacts between me and cars.
I don't think the colour of a bicycle matters much if a vehicle is approaching from behind or from ahead. The bike is so narrow that it's quite hard to see the bike anyway. Bright clothing might help much more.

Recently I showed a number of bicyclists just how invisible their bikes were when being overtake from behind. Every one of those people were surprised that the bike itself wasn't really visible. Saddlebags or panniers in bright colours help visibility a lot.

Cheers
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