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Old 12-20-12, 07:44 PM
  #1  
Kevin Harvey
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Best E bike so far -----

This would be the best Built up E bike on the market so far ( as its mid drive )similar to my Al framed Small Scott mountain bike with 500w cyclone my battery 12ah ea. side of frame, more forward than his I'll have to weigh &see if I can lift it like him ----I'm older & not pc skilled enough to upload pictures.https://www.electricbike.com/lightest-bike/ But i cruise often on 960w hardly any peddling at all but when I do realy need to peddle I know which I'd sooner be on

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Old 12-21-12, 01:51 AM
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whit a 800 watt battery and a 250 watt motor you should get about 50 to 60 mile range (@ 20 MPH). I like it
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Old 12-21-12, 07:09 AM
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OK, i'll bite. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. Maybe one of the lightest e-bikes so far not the best in my book anyways.
Were coming to the end of 2012 & i've put over 5000 miles on 3 different E-Bikes this year.
Issue 1 , 250 watts too low for me, windy days happen a lot 250 too low.
issue 2, The range @ 20 MPH with that tiny pack will not be very far, he's keeping the weight down.
Issue 3, I prefer a hub motor design with a thumb throttle, better feel & control in my opinion not to say I would rule out a mid drive bike in the future because they are high quality builders of these systems like Bosch & Panasonic.
Issue 4, it's a hardtail & a suspension seat post probably couldnt be used with that carbon fibre type frame material.
Issue 5 , It's too light, too small & kinda ugly.
I prefer some weight, quality rock hopper forks, nicely welded durable aluminum frame with wide stock, 195 minium tire width.
I know my range & dont need to pedal the bike without power pedal power alone, these light bikes are interesting but not important to real world E-biking, very specialized class. Even Prodeco is in on the game with a new titanium bike " Titanio " for $ 5000.00, 250 watts 18 MPH top speed , 6.2 AH battery 18 mile range, for 5 grand OHH but it's light that makes it worth 5 grand ?
Not for me
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Old 12-21-12, 10:54 AM
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To build light ebike just to prove concept?
He skimped too much on battery too much on drive
It is a toy no real ebike
Unless his motor is tech marvel it cannot simple provide enough torque for meaningful drive

It is just technical exercise but not practical
Where is the weather protection on this bike
You cannot beat Panasonic or Bosh mid drives
You can be sure both of brands are designed as light as possible for given power output and torque

Last edited by powell; 12-21-12 at 11:00 AM. Reason: Gh
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Old 12-21-12, 11:30 AM
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I agree Powell, If these bikes ever made it to production I bet they would be over 6 grand. now I would be remiss not to mention the Optibike when discussing " the best " E-Bike, they are very expensive but they are very very well made ..your getting a wonderfully engineered well made bike for your hard earned $ with the Optibike
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Old 12-21-12, 02:41 PM
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I myself for any bike would never buy new as i've always seen for the price of 2nd hand one,,--add on bike kit( for me so far 500w midrive cyclones) & for the price of a new bike we've got a E bike , most 2nd hand bikes are not well worn & the cost of parts are cheap.

The local bike shop guys ( who won't stock E bikes although they will buy & fit for a client) are always doing their best to get me to buy these flash ones which cost as much as my e bikes Although you never know I might weaken one day..My adds to sell always say --Watch road bikers swet & curse as you pass.which does happen ---"cheat" he 'll say --- i say its money & brains

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Old 12-21-12, 04:05 PM
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it is not if you buy new or slightly used
It is WHAT ebike you buy
And what are your expectation of ebike.
EXAMPLE
You walk into Walmart see Currie and get test ride
you sit and start riding
WOW you shout it is as if somebody push me in the back
but you ignore terrible noise, you ignore jerking of drive and clunking, etc.

Because everthing is about comparison in tech world

you go to shop specializing in ebikes and decide to try Stromer ebike or Kalkhoff ebike and now you really shout WOW - NOW you ride ebike but there is no comparison to Currie in civility of ride, smoothness, seemless , flawless ride, this assist is seemless, no jerks, no noise.
Obviosly you pay for this experiece which will last much longer than dep. store ebike experience.
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Old 12-22-12, 09:29 PM
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There is certainly a time and place for an e-bike where the electric part is purely an assist unit and the electric assist components add so little weight and additional drag that the difference in additional weight and drive train drag between it and a regular pedal only bike is not noticeable under pedal only power.

This build looks likes pretty good for applying that kind of principle to a hard tail cross country type mountain bike set-up. Another similar kind of set-up is what is known as a "commuter booster" (startpage that name for more info) which uses very light weight components designed for R/C electric airplanes and is intended for use on light weight road bikes.

As to power output, if its properly geared especially through a mid-drive set-up, 250watts even less is enough to do the job. To put things in perspective unless your a world class competitive cyclists a 250watt motor is putting out more power then you are. The main problem with most of the lower powered motors is that they aren't nearly as effectively geared as the pedals. Realize of course that the proper gearing set-up and ratios to transfer pedal power to the wheel has been developed over more then a century. There has been only a couple decades of development for electric assist drive technology and it isn't anywhere near perfected by a long shot.
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Old 12-23-12, 02:23 PM
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I keep a casual interest in the e-bike market, but still haven't seen something that really hits it home for me. I guess we are quite a diverse group because many of the comments so far on this thread would turn me off, e.g. a high power motor (plus associated weight). However, as others have said, the 16.9 lb bike at the start of the thread may be more an engineering feat than practical for daily/weekly/yearly commuting - which is the primary purpose of the e-bike for me.

So these are the qualities I value after 3-4 years of riding: moderate power (250W hub would be ok), battery 8Ah at 36V has been adequate for me, normal looking, good weatherproofing, good lights, mud guards, rack, easy maintainability, thorn resistant tires + thick inner tubes.

The weight I've left to last. For me, it is important because I need to carry the thing upstairs at both ends of the journey. My current bike is 60 lb - it's too heavy. I'm envious of those 16.9 lb e-bikes - couldn't they add 20 lb of extra features and sell it as a commuter?
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Old 12-23-12, 03:14 PM
  #10  
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Originally Posted by spasmous
I keep a casual interest in the e-bike market, but still haven't seen something that really hits it home for me. I guess we are quite a diverse group because many of the comments so far on this thread would turn me off, e.g. a high power motor (plus associated weight). However, as others have said, the 16.9 lb bike at the start of the thread may be more an engineering feat than practical for daily/weekly/yearly commuting - which is the primary purpose of the e-bike for me.

So these are the qualities I value after 3-4 years of riding: moderate power (250W hub would be ok), battery 8Ah at 36V has been adequate for me, normal looking, good weatherproofing, good lights, mud guards, rack, easy maintainability, thorn resistant tires + thick inner tubes.

The weight I've left to last. For me, it is important because I need to carry the thing upstairs at both ends of the journey. My current bike is 60 lb - it's too heavy. I'm envious of those 16.9 lb e-bikes - couldn't they add 20 lb of extra features and sell it as a commuter?
Look at the Kalkhoff bikes. They are pretty much as you describe.
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Old 12-25-12, 02:28 PM
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weight is rather one of the least consideration for me, it doesn't mean I don't care about weight of my ebke.

But I would never sacrifice performance for loosing 2-3kg of weight.
as spasmus wrote it looks like "engineering feat" to me also.
ebike must be practical means weather proof among other thngs.
I see on the picture bare motor not protected
Again I am absolutely sure Panasonic or Bosh drive are just light as possible.

Last edited by powell; 12-25-12 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 01-05-13, 08:19 AM
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Prodeco Outlaw SS

https://prodecotech.com/bikes/outlaw-ss/
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Old 01-06-13, 01:35 PM
  #13  
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One thing that I see as continually holding the American e-bike market back is that the type of bikes we want are simply not attractive to the largest e-bike markets in the world. Our desires are those of a fringe market.

About six months ago I wrote this about the Chinese e-bike market. It was written for a different forum;but, there have been no significant changes since then.
Originally Posted by pdf
When I was in Shanghai a couple of years ago, there were more of what I would call light electric scooters than electric bikes. They were sold in stores that looked like bike stores in the US but were full of electric scooters/bikes. Even the electric bikes looked more like scooters than the ebikes you have in the US. Anyway, that was my experience. Don't know if that is common or not.
I live in P.R. China and that is pretty much the case. It gets confusing because they call electric scooters "bicycles." There is no easy word for them to use to differentiate the electric scooters form the pushbikes. Even those Chinese who are around the foreigners on a daily basis and hear us saying electric-bike or electric-scooter still call all classes of bicycles and two wheeled electric vehicles "bicycles." it actually makes for frequent confusion.

Back to the topic at hand, there are definitely more "two wheeled electric vehicles" (e-bikes) than automobiles. One factor is that an e-bike does not require a license for either the device or the operator. Second, traffic speeds in Chain are, generally, quite low, so the natural speed limitations of the Lead Acid powered e-bikes is not as severe of an issue. Speed is also less of an issue because, in China, e-bikes are not competing with traffic, they are the traffic (of course, remember that traffic here is totally chaotic). Range is not as much of an issue because Chinese cities are, generally, smaller. Further, Chinese tend to work, live, and shop, in their own neighborhoods. Yes, I know that these are generalizations, there will always be outliers in any sample group; however, as generalizations, they are generally true.

There are several e-bike shops in the cities. Most are e-bike only shops; however, the Giant dealers tend to also deal in Giant e-bikes, one of the better brands. The most popular types are the heavy scooter style bikes and the, for lack of a better word, lite moped style.

The heavy scooter style units resemble petrol scooters and have the advantage of a large floorboard for packages (and, in my case, my dog), further, they have room for extended range batteries. The also enjoy more lockable storage, under the seat, larger trunks, better weather protection, and more passenger room. However, several cities in China are beginning to ban the heavy scooter style e-bikes. This is being done through regulations regarding the sale of e-bikes that exceed maximum size and weight restrictions. Because China is a very lawless society, it will take time for these laws to trickle down and have an impact on users.

The heavy scooter e-bikes are clearly being replaced by the lite moped style e-bikes. One interesting development in these lite e-bikes is the standardization of the battery packages. This is not happeneing as a result of efforts at standardization, intentional coordination at that level goes against Chinese cultural practices, it is clearly happening as a result of market dominance of a few manufacturers. This standardizing effect is seen in many industries, it is just starting to happen in e-bikes. These lite e-bikes are clearly replacing the scooter style. This is, in large part, due to cost; further, the advantages of the heavy e-bikes are not so great, and the heavy e-bikes are harder to park.
All that being said, there will still be a market for the heavy e-bike until that market is significantly interfered with by enforcement of legislation. They remain better suited for commercial applications and family transportation due to their better heavy load handling capabilities and larger size [Note: I suddenly feel that I am writing a short analysis of US auto trends for the Chinese]. However, the smaller units are clearly increasing their proportional sales.

It should also be noted that the heavy e-bikes are also in competition, for family usage, with the growth in popularity of the small, petrol powered, automobile. These small automobiles will most likely, further, push the heavy e-bike into a fringe application and, combined with legislative changes; eventually leave the lite e-bike dominant. However, it should be noted that this paragraph is making a long range projection and should be seen as having a lower level of reliability than the observation based statements that comprise the rest of this document.

The form of e-bike that is not seen in China is the pushbike based models that are popular in the US. IN all honesty I cannot recall seeing any; and, as I have an interest in e-bikes, I do look. I suspect that the reasons for this are, primarily: battery space, passenger space, market differentiation, and perceived usage.
While this is slowly changing, the standard battery used in Chinese e-bikes remains the Lead Acid type. The weight and size of these batteries calls for specialized frame designs to both store the battery and to distribute the weight. This consideration, almost immediately, limits the practicality of converting a pushbike to a, market competitive, e-bike merely by adding e-bike components. Hobbyist conversions are unlikely due to Cultural practices.

The next issues are passenger and cargo space. While they could be built differently, and some are; the practice tends toward building pushbikes with poor passenger and cargo handling capability. Rear racks are frequently called into passenger carrying service; however, it is not seen as ideal. In contrast, modern e-bikes are frequently designed with passenger carrying as a design consideration and also, frequently, sport lockable storage.

The final consideration is the perceived usage. Even discounting the issues of passengers and storage, I suspect that the Chinese consumer would see the converted pushbike as an inferior choice. They have less splash protection and, very importantly, have no place for the operator to rest their feet. Even when pedals are present, Chinese riders do not ride with their feet on the pedals; they place their feet on some, built-in floorboard.

While it is true, the pushbike based e-bikes are, significantly, easier to pedal, pedaling is not a consideration in e-bike purchases. Chinese consumers purchase e-bikes so that they will not have to pedal. It is not at all uncommon to see e-bikes with missing, or detached, drive chains. A Chinese rider is more likely to dismount and push an e-bike up a steep hill than to attempt to supplement the power through pedaling.

Dismounting is another issue that limits the attractiveness of the converted pushbike. The Chinese generally ride step through bikes. This is because Chinese frequently dismount their pushbikes at all stops, while entering driveways, and while going through gates, no matter the size of the gate. For example, the entrance to an educational campus would be called a gate, even though it is a paved roadway, and all pushbike riders are required to dismount and walk through the gate (yes, this is done with cars, motorcycles, and e-bikes speeding around and into them). The step through design is very popular because there is no point of the mounting process that has the rider looking down and away from the traffic around them. This preference extends to e-bike purchasing preferences.

The advantages of the Western Style e-bike are, generally, better handing at speed, small package size for the level of performance, light weight for the level of performance, better, western biased, aesthetics, and better pedaling performance.

Handing at speed is simply not an issue. As stated, the Chinese e-bikes are, able to operate in the Chinese traffic conditions. Further, even with their limited performance, Chinese riders seldom ride at full throttle. There is no sport e-bike market. The smaller package size and weight are less of a consideration, and may even be a detriment. Chinese bicycles are stored outside and are seldom locked to any permanent fixture. Ring locks, which immobilize the bike by preventing the wheel from turning, are the most common type of lock used here. If a cable, or “U,” lock is used, it is generally put through the wheel and not locked to a fixture. Bicycle and e-bike theft is a common problem. A heavier bike is significantly harder to lift into a truck; or, simply walk away with, in an attempt to steal it.

As the premise stated, the western style, converted pushbikes are not popular in China. They do not match the usage patterns of Chinese e-bike riders.
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Old 01-07-13, 09:33 AM
  #14  
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This seems to be a gimmick to me. Not practical at all. If the story is as it reads, the guy got to the top of the hill and impressed everyone but, his battery was dead once he got there.

Think about this; a 250Watt hour battery that is supposed to power a motor that draws between 250 and 400 watts**********? How long will the battery last at 400 Watts draw? Of course all this assumes max charge, max capacity and max discharge. The real life (how it works in the real world) number is about 10 minutes b4 the battery is too weak to help. Climb one hill, recharge, climb another hill, recharge etc, etc.
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Old 01-19-13, 01:41 PM
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The tiny battery pack and small motor theoretically make this an e-bike, but in reality this is a super light bike with close to zero additional power from the electric motor. It's funny how some people are shocked to hear that a decent e-bike might weight around 30-40 kilograms, not to mention some such as the eRockit which is more than 120 kgs or the ever so popular Stealth Bomber with over 54 kgs. I think that when it comes to performance, weight is crucial, but it is not the only factor that will determine how good an e-bike is. But take the M55 Terminus for instance which still weights 33 kgs, but you can reach a speed of nearly 80 kmh on it on a flat road, while you can still take the bike for a more than serious off-roading. Now that's what I call a proper mountain e-bike. Here is a vid:

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Old 01-21-13, 03:59 AM
  #16  
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Till you have to lift it over a fence-----I have 1-36v 1000 watt with nuvinci hell she's heavy to peddal & 3 --500w cyclone kits on bikes , the light highclass Al framed one is still a bike that can be peddaled as easy as a steel framed mountain bike & carried over obstacles even on shoulder thats still a bike not motor bike.

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