Originally Posted by adipe

0. some hubs don't allow more than a certain amount of average tension. there are some anecdotal evidence for Chris King hubs that have their bearings becoming loose. other hubs could break if you go crazy with spoke tension. that's why i always say: YMMV. not every component is the same. there are reasons to not follow the Brandt (even if it's not accurate to have it named "his" method, just that he described it without too much stress on the radial tuning and/or how it is to be done in agreement/balance to tension variance) to the letter with hubs that may not work that well on extreme average tensions (from which you back off whatever amount you choose to do so).


1. i won't bother discussing single wall rims as they're quite history now. i could but it would be of too little use... and they allow for high tension, only they are less stable if you don't balance radial runout with tension variance as precisely as needed. i can't stress this enough. i already explained how to do it for those who will care to read other posts of mine.

2. i am quite dissapointed by the fact that they don't build hubs spaced for 5-6 speed like for example Hope Pro SS so that the spoke tension would be equal. of course this is the reason for most people's troubles with their wheels, e-bikes, loaded touring, clydes/athenas. my e-bike is now transformed into a singlespeed bike, the 9/10 speed spaced freehub is no use to me except to ensure an exact chainline with the cranks (not so easily repaceable bottom bracket). so, again, i don't like going into this discussion as most people are obsessed with having many cogs on the rear but few will consider having clipless pedals which can make singlespeed a breeze for any bike.

3. any wheel builder knows that for a wheel that will have dish (front disc and rear wheels) it's the best practice to radial true and then lateral true if needed by having a the least bit of tension NDS as needed and finally have a balanced radial runout to spoke tension variance. but few bother to do exact measurements for tension and radial runout (for each spoke) as to have computed values to be followed regarding each nipple angle to be turned +/- as to achieve that balance. after that is done NDS are to be raised in stages with stress relieving done in stages. that DS tension at which this tune is to be made is a rather "average" one. somewhere at most 70kgf should be enough so that if needed the final dish operation will sometimes needed to be done in just one or just a few 90 degrees turn of the nipples for the DS or none at all, depending on several factors. not much details are needed to be talked about here regarding the optimum medium tension for DS tension at which radial and tension variance should be tuned so that from that stage on the DS nipples are not to be touched except to do the final dish IF NEEDED.

4. the wheel builder's dilemma can be therefore also reformulated for those reasons like this: "should i bother for a less than 0.25mm difference from perfect dish? why bother doing so if it matters so little and there are reasons to prefer this" (see point 2. discussed) even myself being a perfectionist regarding the way my bike rides don't care for such accuracy which matters so little. therefore you can adjust dish by having just n*90 degrees of nipples turn if needed. putting oriented labels on the spokes is of much use as to ensure there is no elastic twist for the spokes. an unexperienced builder could put labels with marked lines (nipple positions or spoke key position for that matter) on the rim so that error does not add up when turning those n*90 degrees.

5. as the NDS get more and more tension the variance will also increase in absolute figures but the relative tension variance will not diminish in percent values too much except the rim is getting straightened in the process of raising tension in stages by stress relieving and by getting very high tension in order to back off after straightening the rim and strain hardening it and bedding in everything that has to be bedded in. achieving +/-5% tension variance and +/-0.05mm RADIAL (which i care for more than for the latter) and lateral true is not something that is really hard to do. it only takes time doing so but that balance for radial runout and tension variance has to be taken care of from the beginning. you might check again later if somehow for some reasons (usually with not so new rims and hubs) the bedding is not uniform and therefore messes with the initial balance so that before reaching the extreme tensions (whatever you take to mean that you won't go further from that point) you should check for that balance by doing another set of measurements if you are able to do that.

later edit: the strain-stres curve for the rim's material is in such way that it gets more and more stubborn right up to a bit over 200MPa after which the elastic modulus goes at much lower level than that where it begun with (at zero stress). the stress-strain graph has an inflection point. that's why i wrote that the variance in percent values does not change too much unless you do the plastic deformations of the rim either by stress relief (useful also in order to test the ground, to check before going further) or just raise NDS to extreme levels which is too difficult to do with spokes that are not thick enough for the job. take note that a narrow pressurized tire can be of much help. that and the mounting of it on a such thick tape as you care to have mounted on the rim. the tire will press harder on the rim with its bead on top of the pressure of the air pressing on the rim seat (that is after extracting the thickness of the tire and tube).

6. the rim can take more tension than people would imagine but it would be too vulnerable in riding if left that way. there's also what is called creep deformation to kick in if the wheel is left at tensions like 200+ (supposing you were able to very precisely tune radial runout and tension variance) and just sits in that state.

the right amount of average tension for a durable wheel depends on several factors:
a.) spoke thickness. straight gauge both sides dictates higher tension for two reasons, namely 1. preventing the NDS going slack such as to optimize durability and 2. the DS at 4:30 and 7:30 will be under less tension to be added to those spokes if straight gauge are on the NDS. DS spokes will be under more added tension if the NDS has butted spokes. of course the DS will under less static tension when butted spokes are on the NDS but i just thought to point out that higher static DS tension is alright with same straight gauge spokes on both DS and NDS, especially when using 36h (more spokes keeping the rim together at 4:30 and 7:30 positions etc.).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4kz0k4AdI4
observe the 7:30 and 4:30 spoke tension going higher at the wheel's maximum load for the ~1100 average spoke tension of that wheel in the video - about 30% more.

if anyone cares to observe for a certain rim the wall into which the nipple sits and therefore figure out the shear stress...
https://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/img/spoke_1.jpg

b.) spoke length - spokes would go easier slack if shorter to begin with at the same certain tension for the comparison sake.
c.) lower rim height makes the rim deflect more at loads and also less susceptible to flat spots - therefore you either pick thinner spokes (makes more sense) or work with higher tensions (there are few reasons to keep thick spokes). if height is on the upside like the rim is 20+mm then the spokes need not be at the same high tension that low profile rims dictate.


7. i was able to go to 180kgf DS tension and 170kgf NDS tension with a single eyeleted rim (about 500g, 27mm external width, 18mm height and therefore not very thick wall in which the eyelets sit) i appreciate now even more after taking the pain to straighten it after it has been abused and somehow neglected by previous owners. in general when repairing such things quality work is hard to find and that is why i take the pain to work with zip ties, acoustics and some laser tool (less than 10 bucks was what i paid for it) as a quite recent addition to the minimum tools i work with. i had no hope to have a good job done by others so i started doing stuff myself. i can't afford better tools and i don't have much hope in taking money around where i live because in general people don't know better as to appreciate these things and i am very easily pissed when crap is thrown at me (sabotage etc.) and therefore i tend to have a loud mouth when accused of selling "snake oil" etc. i am not good at selling crap with a smiling face but tend to go crazy when what i give for free is criticized with bogus arguments and bad science when i know it to be tried and true, scientifically proven.

as a side note: i suspect (and i don't care to find out) there's a different thread pitch on some spokes (on some wheels i had in use several years ago) that were 1.8mm continuous section and therefore only butted at the flanges. so people better take care to ensure that the classic 0.45 thread pitch for 2mm section near the thread is what is used before doing the angle computing stuff i mentioned earlier. such spokes do not necessarily break easier at the nipple unless proper stress relieving is done. if the spokes are always in elastic bend near the yield limit then creep and fatigue will work them for those portions until they break.


8. if i were to have a bike that i need not worry for the spokes when securing the wheel with the bike lock or other ways in which they are vulnerable i would build with about 1.8mm DS and 1.5mm NDS but that also is for rims that are not to be straightened out. rims that are bent out of shape can be a nightmare to be fixed when using thin spokes. and... i would gladly use 36h both front and rear if the rim model is available in 36h. and i'd go 135kgf DS - which would mean about 88kgf NDS - so that when the tire is fitted (which should lower the tension even with 0 psi) and inflated the max DS tension is just a bit higher than 120kgf so that those wheels don't need to be touched again with the spoke key.

9. i guess this aspect is something anyone can figure out. i wrote in my recent posts that the wheel could be pressed not on the axle per se but on the flange that sits on some support. to use less words i would just say "pressing on the axle" and also the classic YMMV in regards to whatever the cartridge bearings you have or the weight you use (some are clydes, some are not) etc. for example i had 64kg at the time i worked with a DT Swiss TK540 and Rev (1.5mm spokes) when i stood on that wheel at just a tad under 120kgf average spoke tension. the hub was a cup and cone. the latter work i performed on a motor hub i trusted to have strong bearings. grabbing spokes in parallel sets is safer and quite alright when working on new rims but sometimes you need to fix light tacoed rims.

10. not many people are so unsensitive to the difference between 600 and 604 Hz. that's 11 cents in musical language. usually everyone can be precise to 4 cents which means about 0.5% error. using a precise spoke tension meter is better when you have one. if you don't have one and you have my stubbornness you use zip ties and acoustics AND a tone generator AND a computer to gather all data and figure out the angle for each nipple to turn.

11.a.) the spokes should be able to remain at 150 static tension after you cold worked them to more than 200kgf. i would not advise achieving 150kgf and leaving the spokes at that tension without going to at least more than 30% more tension. the means to do so is another matter. see the youtube video above to get a picture regarding delta tension at the point of 6:00 spoke(s) getting slack. the bend near the nipple will be made in a quite precise way.

11.b.) using almost 150 DS tension with the tire inflated is something i would advise only for final spoke tension variance of +/-5% and i would say it's quite appropriate to do so when using straight gauge spokes and/or high diameter flanges that have shorter spokes to the rim by imposing 2x patterns. that and the rim height being under 20mm as i wrote above (mine is 18mm). if i were to take the tire off the rim i wouldn't be surprised to measure more than 160kgf maximum spoke tension. i dunno exactly at which level they would be now with the tire taken off, i never bothered to measure. the maximum spoke tension now with the inflated tire is about 144kgf and that is with a radial/lateral runout at +/-0.05mm and tension variance surely less than +/-6%. but i'll say it again: 250mm spoke length (2x) on a 18mm height rim, 36 DT Alpine spokes. this affords me peace of mind for dynamic loads even higher than 400kgf as the tension drop was about 18% with respect to the load measured on the scales (rear wheel contact when weighing). the least tensioned NDS is about 85kgf.

11.c.) spoke tension is excessive at any level if the person who uses the wheels pressure washes them without adding something to prevent corrosion after the pressure wash. this is just one example of bad practice. stress corrosion cracking is not preventable just by using "normal" tension. it's just that the process starts depending on tension variance but there's the stuff that could get to the rim's surface wherever the anodized surface is scratched and bad stuff gets to it.

99. lubricate the threads with wax based lubes. the best mix should have lithium stearate as an additive. avoind graphite and moly as they are not corrosion free. the lower friction coefficient the less you need to apply techniques as to momentarily lower spoke tension when turning the nipples in order to raise spoke tension. microcrystalline wax is of much use and these substances are also generically called isoparaffins. add a bit of linseed (flaxseed) oil to the mix in order to seal the stuff against bacteria that degrade waxes (one of the causes of tire rot). as far as i know they say that microcrystalline is not so easily biodegradeable. you could check this stuff out for your own.

Originally Posted by adipe

0. some hubs don't allow more than a certain amount of average tension. there are some anecdotal evidence for Chris King hubs that have their bearings becoming loose. other hubs could break if you go crazy with spoke tension. that's why i always say: YMMV. not every component is the same. there are reasons to not follow the Brandt (even if it's not accurate to have it named "his" method, just that he described it without too much stress on the radial tuning and/or how it is to be done in agreement/balance to tension variance) to the letter with hubs that may not work that well on extreme average tensions (from which you back off whatever amount you choose to do so).

Originally Posted by adipe

1. i won't bother discussing single wall rims as they're quite history now. i could but it would be of too little use... and they allow for high tension, only they are less stable if you don't balance radial runout with tension variance as precisely as needed. i can't stress this enough. i already explained how to do it for those who will care to read other posts of mine.

Originally Posted by adipe

2. i am quite dissapointed by the fact that they don't build hubs spaced for 5-6 speed like for example Hope Pro SS so that the spoke tension would be equal. of course this is the reason for most people's troubles with their wheels, e-bikes, loaded touring, clydes/athenas. my e-bike is now transformed into a singlespeed bike, the 9/10 speed spaced freehub is no use to me except to ensure an exact chainline with the cranks (not so easily repaceable bottom bracket). so, again, i don't like going into this discussion as most people are obsessed with having many cogs on the rear but few will consider having clipless pedals which can make singlespeed a breeze for any bike.

Originally Posted by adipe

3. any wheel builder knows that for a wheel that will have dish (front disc and rear wheels) it's the best practice to radial true and then lateral true if needed by having a the least bit of tension NDS as needed and finally have a balanced radial runout to spoke tension variance. but few bother to do exact measurements for tension and radial runout (for each spoke) as to have computed values to be followed regarding each nipple angle to be turned +/- as to achieve that balance. after that is done NDS are to be raised in stages with stress relieving done in stages. that DS tension at which this tune is to be made is a rather "average" one. somewhere at most 70kgf should be enough so that if needed the final dish operation will sometimes needed to be done in just one or just a few 90 degrees turn of the nipples for the DS or none at all, depending on several factors. not much details are needed to be talked about here regarding the optimum medium tension for DS tension at which radial and tension variance should be tuned so that from that stage on the DS nipples are not to be touched except to do the final dish IF NEEDED.

Originally Posted by adipe

4. the wheel builder's dilemma can be therefore also reformulated for those reasons like this: "should i bother for a less than 0.25mm difference from perfect dish? why bother doing so if it matters so little and there are reasons to prefer this" (see point 2. discussed) even myself being a perfectionist regarding the way my bike rides don't care for such accuracy which matters so little. therefore you can adjust dish by having just n*90 degrees of nipples turn if needed. putting oriented labels on the spokes is of much use as to ensure there is no elastic twist for the spokes. an unexperienced builder could put labels with marked lines (nipple positions or spoke key position for that matter) on the rim so that error does not add up when turning those n*90 degrees.

Originally Posted by adipe

5. as the NDS get more and more tension the variance will also increase in absolute figures but the relative tension variance will not diminish in percent values too much except the rim is getting straightened in the process of raising tension in stages by stress relieving and by getting very high tension in order to back off after straightening the rim and strain hardening it and bedding in everything that has to be bedded in. achieving +/-5% tension variance and +/-0.05mm RADIAL (which i care for more than for the latter) and lateral true is not something that is really hard to do. it only takes time doing so but that balance for radial runout and tension variance has to be taken care of from the beginning. you might check again later if somehow for some reasons (usually with not so new rims and hubs) the bedding is not uniform and therefore messes with the initial balance so that before reaching the extreme tensions (whatever you take to mean that you won't go further from that point) you should check for that balance by doing another set of measurements if you are able to do that.

later edit: the strain-stres curve for the rim's material is in such way that it gets more and more stubborn right up to a bit over 200MPa after which the elastic modulus goes at much lower level than that where it begun with (at zero stress). the stress-strain graph has an inflection point. that's why i wrote that the variance in percent values does not change too much unless you do the plastic deformations of the rim either by stress relief (useful also in order to test the ground, to check before going further) or just raise NDS to extreme levels which is too difficult to do with spokes that are not thick enough for the job. take note that a narrow pressurized tire can be of much help. that and the mounting of it on a such thick tape as you care to have mounted on the rim. the tire will press harder on the rim with its bead on top of the pressure of the air pressing on the rim seat (that is after extracting the thickness of the tire and tube).

Originally Posted by adipe

6. the rim can take more tension than people would imagine but it would be too vulnerable in riding if left that way. there's also what is called creep deformation to kick in if the wheel is left at tensions like 200+ (supposing you were able to very precisely tune radial runout and tension variance) and just sits in that state.

the right amount of average tension for a durable wheel depends on several factors:
a.) spoke thickness. straight gauge both sides dictates higher tension for two reasons, namely 1. preventing the NDS going slack such as to optimize durability and 2. the DS at 4:30 and 7:30 will be under less tension to be added to those spokes if straight gauge are on the NDS. DS spokes will be under more added tension if the NDS has butted spokes. of course the DS will under less static tension when butted spokes are on the NDS but i just thought to point out that higher static DS tension is alright with same straight gauge spokes on both DS and NDS, especially when using 36h (more spokes keeping the rim together at 4:30 and 7:30 positions etc.).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4kz0k4AdI4
observe the 7:30 and 4:30 spoke tension going higher at the wheel's maximum load for the ~1100 average spoke tension of that wheel in the video - about 30% more.

if anyone cares to observe for a certain rim the wall into which the nipple sits and therefore figure out the shear stress...
https://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/img/spoke_1.jpg

b.) spoke length - spokes would go easier slack if shorter to begin with at the same certain tension for the comparison sake.
c.) lower rim height makes the rim able to have larger radial deflection at loads and also less susceptible to flat spots - therefore you either pick thinner spokes (makes more sense) or work with higher tensions (there are few reasons to keep thick spokes). if height is on the upside like the rim is 20+mm then the spokes need not be at the same high tension that low profile rims dictate. and usually you have low spoke count with rims having more height as those rims tolerate more gap between the spokes and less compression of the rim as a result. such rims are used for being more aero.

Originally Posted by adipe

7. i was able to go to 180kgf DS tension and 170kgf NDS tension with a single eyeleted rim (about 500g, 27mm external width, 18mm height and therefore not very thick wall in which the eyelets sit) i appreciate now even more after taking the pain to straighten it after it has been abused and somehow neglected by previous owners. in general when repairing such things quality work is hard to find and that is why i take the pain to work with zip ties, acoustics and some laser tool (less than 10 bucks was what i paid for it) as a quite recent addition to the minimum tools i work with. i had no hope to have a good job done by others so i started doing stuff myself. i can't afford better tools and i don't have much hope in taking money around where i live because in general people don't know better as to appreciate these things and i am very easily pissed when crap is thrown at me (sabotage etc.) and therefore i tend to have a loud mouth when accused of selling "snake oil" etc. i am not good at selling crap with a smiling face but tend to go crazy when what i give for free is criticized with bogus arguments and bad science when i know it to be tried and true, scientifically proven.

as a side note: i suspect (and i don't care to find out) there's a different thread pitch on some spokes (on some wheels i had in use several years ago) that were 1.8mm continuous section and therefore only butted at the flanges. so people better take care to ensure that the classic 0.45 thread pitch for 2mm section near the thread is what is used before doing the angle computing stuff i mentioned earlier. such spokes do not necessarily break easier at the nipple unless proper stress relieving is done. if the spokes are always in elastic bend near the yield limit then creep and fatigue will work them for those portions until they break.

Originally Posted by adipe

8. if i were to have a bike that i need not worry for the spokes when securing the wheel with the bike lock or other ways in which they are vulnerable i would build with about 1.8mm DS and 1.5mm NDS but that also is for rims that are not to be straightened out. rims that are bent out of shape can be a nightmare to be fixed when using thin spokes. and... i would gladly use 36h both front and rear if the rim model is available in 36h. and i'd go 135kgf DS - which would mean about 88kgf NDS - so that when the tire is fitted (which should lower the tension even with 0 psi) and inflated the max DS tension is just a bit higher than 120kgf so that those wheels don't need to be touched again with the spoke key.

Originally Posted by adipe

9. i guess this aspect is something anyone can figure out. i wrote in my recent posts that the wheel could be pressed not on the axle per se but on the flange that sits on some support. to use less words i would just say "pressing on the axle" and also the classic YMMV in regards to whatever the cartridge bearings you have or the weight you use (some are clydes, some are not) etc. for example i had 64kg at the time i worked with a DT Swiss TK540 and Rev (1.5mm spokes) when i stood on that wheel at just a tad under 120kgf average spoke tension. the hub was a cup and cone. the latter work i performed on a motor hub i trusted to have strong bearings. grabbing spokes in parallel sets is safer and quite alright when working on new rims but sometimes you need to fix light tacoed rims.

Originally Posted by adipe

10. not many people are so unsensitive to the difference between 600 and 604 Hz. that's 11 cents in musical language. usually everyone can be precise to 4 cents which means about 0.5% error. using a precise spoke tension meter is better when you have one. if you don't have one and you have my stubbornness you use zip ties and acoustics AND a tone generator AND a computer to gather all data and figure out the angle for each nipple to turn.

Originally Posted by adipe

11.a.) the spokes should be able to remain at 150 static tension after you cold worked them to more than 200kgf. i would not advise achieving 150kgf and leaving the spokes at that tension without going to at least more than 30% more tension. the means to do so is another matter. see the youtube video above to get a picture regarding delta tension at the point of 6:00 spoke(s) getting slack. the bend near the nipple will be made in a quite precise way.

11.b.) using almost 150 DS tension with the tire inflated is something i would advise only for final spoke tension variance of +/-5% and i would say it's quite appropriate to do so when using straight gauge spokes and/or high diameter flanges that have shorter spokes to the rim by imposing 2x patterns. that and the rim height being under 20mm as i wrote above (mine is 18mm). if i were to take the tire off the rim i wouldn't be surprised to measure more than 160kgf maximum spoke tension. i dunno exactly at which level they would be now with the tire taken off, i never bothered to measure. the maximum spoke tension now with the inflated tire is about 144kgf and that is with a radial/lateral runout at +/-0.05mm and tension variance surely less than +/-6%. but i'll say it again: 250mm spoke length (2x) on a 18mm height rim, 36 DT Alpine spokes. this affords me peace of mind for dynamic loads even higher than 400kgf as the tension drop was about 18% with respect to the load measured on the scales (rear wheel contact when weighing). the least tensioned NDS is about 85kgf.

11.c.) spoke tension is excessive at any level if the person who uses the wheels pressure washes them without adding something to prevent corrosion after the pressure wash. this is just one example of bad practice. stress corrosion cracking is not preventable just by using "normal" tension. it's just that the process starts depending on tension variance but there's the stuff that could get to the rim's surface wherever the anodized surface is scratched and bad stuff gets to it.

99. lubricate the threads with wax based lubes. the best mix should have lithium stearate as an additive. avoind graphite and moly as they are not corrosion free. the lower friction coefficient the less you need to apply techniques as to momentarily lower spoke tension when turning the nipples in order to raise spoke tension. microcrystalline wax is of much use and these substances are also generically called isoparaffins. add a bit of linseed (flaxseed) oil to the mix in order to seal the stuff against bacteria that degrade waxes (one of the causes of tire rot). as far as i know they say that microcrystalline is not so easily biodegradeable. you could check this stuff out for your own.

Originally Posted by Bike Gremlin

For me it is very hard to judge radial truenes without first achieving lateral truenes. Dish is not as important at starting stage, but I first get the rims laterally true, before measuring and correcting radial trueness.

Originally Posted by Bike Gremlin

Generally agree with one note - some frames are built with an error (not designed with an offset, like some MTB frames) - it's safest when you have the frame at hand just to be sure. For properly built frames, it's not an issue - up to 0.5 mm to the either side. Though, for having a more uniform DS and NDS tension and to get as much angle as possible for the DS spokes, I prefer to err towards the left - for the rear wheels. Hence, my acceptable margin is not +- 0.25 mm, but 0 to 0.5 mm to the left hand side.

Originally Posted by Bike Gremlin

Maybe I've not explained what I mean properly, but in my experience, both the relative and absolute variances diminish as the spokes gain tension. Talking about (adjacent) same side spokes with different angles ( / \ - to illustrate) with cross lacing pattern.

Originally Posted by Bike Gremlin

1.5, even 1.8 mm wide spokes are weaker at the threads, so I'd stay clear of those. Swaged 2 mm spokes fix the problem of NDS spokes loosening even with the heaviest riders - from my experience.
With deformed rims (as in not straight without any spokes laced), for me it is impossible to get both the rim true and the spokes to have an even tension.

Originally Posted by Bike Gremlin

Those who sense that (most normal people) find the plucking method quicker and easier. I don't, unfortunately.
Using a microphone and computer for that is definitely slower. Bother with that only for motorcycle wheels, where bike wheel tension meter is useless.

Originally Posted by Bike Gremlin

Not sure I understand the use of working spokes to an extremely high tension, then backing it off. Suspect the risk of damaging the spoke key to nipple interface, threads, or nipple to rim interface is increased, with questionable gains.
Any effect of work-hardening the rim, or spokes, in that way must be minimal (could be wrong).

Originally Posted by Bike Gremlin

My favourite lube is anti-seize (mounting) paste (if you don't mind the colour, "copper grease" is good).

Originally Posted by mrrabbit

Wow...just wow...

=8-|

Originally Posted by adipe

lateral runout affects radial adjustment by about 1/10. so, of course you need to bring lateral runout to a low level, just that you need not be as precise as +/-0.05mm at that stage. you could be alright with ~0.005mm maximum error in radial runout due to lateral being +/-0.05mm.
you should be as precise as possible in regards to measuring each radial runout for each spoke and also tension variance after establishing which is the average tension so that you can balance things out. if you go by zero radial tension as to not be able to measure precisely but work only with zip ties then a small lateral runout won't affect too much the radial runout which is more important for that matter.



i've had a frame several years ago (stolen now) that had assymetrical chainstays as to have an offset for the wheel in order to lessen dish. it was a Scapin EOS 7 and it had the TK 540 rim laced up with DT Rev spokes at almost 120kgf maximum tension (no disc). first wheel i worked on. i am not at ease when i am reminded of frames that have offset for the rear wheel in order to have a lower dish wheel. Gary Fisher Piranha is another example of an offset chainstays frame. i have it on me for a later project.



if you look at the strain-stress curve you will get that the rim is more stubborn and will not want to give in. the more it is compressed the more spoke tension over the average is required as to correct get radial runout to zero. so things do not progress as to have that lower spoke tension variance as you'd expect.
it's not a good thing to get zero radial runout from the get go because you will mess up later on and it's very difficult to readjust radial runout for as long as you raise NDS tension.
the more practical thing to do is to compute those values as to have the spokes at the same length if they were to have the same tension in the event that later on the rim would become straightened out.



i've gone to almost 190kgf when stress relieving the DT Rev spokes on that front wheel. that is not by nipple turn but by laying it on the axle (it was cup and cone - you can put the wheel as to not press directly on the axle but on the flange if you are not sure about it, i'm being expedient in the formulation). it was difficult enough to have tensioned the thin spokes to 120kgf (torsional stress, avoided permanent twist) so i stress relieved them further to 190kgf and straightened the rim. i ended up with lower tension variance and with the flat spot being fixed. you get the picture.



i used plucking as to guestimate and i still do sometimes but i now rely on plucking AND a tension generator to listen to say 600hz sound and compare it with what i hear (no microphones etc.). i need to pluck the spoke and then try upper or lower as to be able to translate the value of the frequency in kgf. if the spokes that cross have almost the same frequency i either neglect it if it really small like 1Hz or pluck each of them to be able to discern which is the lower and which is the higher frequency. the errors due to the distance measured (from the nipples to the cross) or the transition of butted spokes are negligible and will affect mainly the error in estimating average tension. the spokes have the same thickness and transition of the butting - you won't have them mixed up, those cases are not covered - so for figuring out how much exactly each spoke is longer or shorter from the average due to difference in spoke tension... this is good enough. if i were rich i would buy a precise tension meter. i won't but a less expensive crappy one but i'd rather go by ear. i buy a bike and fix wheels very very rarely. but when i do... i am a bit manic about it and won't do the job in a few hours. many people are obsessed with maintaining multispeed drivetrains and spend so much time for that. i obsess as to not maintain the bike frequently. i need singlespeed bikes that work perfectly and don't need too much maintaining. so i fix the wheels so that they never need to be fixed again.

i don't use a microphone as i don't expect some software to beat the human ear. a tone generator is quite alright, you should try the 600Hz against the 603Hz (1.01 factor as a result in tension) - i'm sure you can discern the difference - and see for yourself your accuracy. and you don't really need accuracy for high tensions like for 800Hz sounds because you adjust radial runout at medium tension. at which you should precisely balance - using numbers - the tension variance with the radial runout.

some people may apply these things and find some neat results with tensioned spoked motorcycle wheels. but usually the spokes are quite thick and short so that usually the balancing is done without precise measurements of radial runout and tension variance for each spoke.



the risk would be spoke permanent twist - torsional stress being large due to friction at the nipple threads. i do this only after wax lubing spoke threads and brass nipples. i am careful that anticorrosive stuff reach the surface of the rim and penetrate wherever it has to where the eyelet is. advice is to either drip machine light oil or wax spray lubricant with penetrating carrier solvent. i lubed from both outside and inside, spraying through the holes. but be sure to not have the rim urethane tape affected and swell as a result. you need to have the rim surface where you mount the rim tape cleaned with some cloth that only leaves a very very thin protective layer under the tape so that the urethane does not absorb too much of the oil.

unless you carefully balance out radial runout with tension variance from the get go you might also develop flat spots on the rim when it goes more than 200MPa in average compression. but i did this way overboard BECAUSE it had a large enough flat spot over ~2 spokes and it had also a small taco in that place. the wheel had tension all over the place from the factory i guess... sloppy work.

https://youtu.be/w8OgXTiiWw8?t=20
the nipple has about 4mm in diameter, that makes about 140MPa for shear if the tension goes 180kgf before settling to a lower value and the wall thickness is taken as only 1mm (and not 3mm as it really is). the safety factor is therefore taken as 3. and also there are eyelets on the rim to spread the load. so the rim can take more than 180kgf.

so, the thing you need to worry about is fatigue and stress corrosion cracking.
having everything lubed is key in such practice.

Brandt has written that spokes go 50-100% more tension when strong parallel grabbing for stress relieving.
if you have 120kgf maximum tension then you end up with 180-240kgf when stress relieving. so i am not that heretic after all. i just go with nipple turn at 180kgf after wax lubricating the threads for plain gauge spokes so that i end up with low tension variance and radial runout. but if the rim is perfectly straight, both radial and lateral i won't need to go there by nipple turn but just stop at about 150-150kgf and then parallel grab without having my hands hurt.

spoke tension going from 120kgf to 180kgf when grabbing...
290mm initial length, 290.3mm length when grabbed - 0.3mm delta from the strain, elastic modulus being considered 179GPa
rim having 0.5mm radial deflection towards the hub; you may correct me if i'm wrong for this thrown in guesstimation as i'd say i expect it to be very well be less than that...
sqrt(290.3^2-289.5^2)=21.53

that's 21.53mm less distance between the spokes (even less if rim deflection is less than 0.5mm);
12.44kgf needed to press on the spokes to bring them together with that 21.5mm distance: (290+21.5)/21.5*12.44kgf = 180kgf.
i surely can press more than 20kgf using my right hand which is weaker than my left.

what is the amount of force you press when you grab parallel spokes? you can object to the question but i will also object to the general advice which is "press until your fingers hurt; take some gloves so that they don't hurt". generally ordinary people get the impression that only some select few are able to figure out how much and that feeling can't be expressed. i have strong feelings for this... unable to be expressed feeling.

raising the average tension with nipple turn can get the rim at such overall compression as to make the straightening by pulling it as to twist it wherever you need to much easier. i pulled as hard as i could to untwist it where it had a bit of a taco mixed in with flat spot. i was able to fix the taco. taking the wheel off the bike was not an easy thing to do as to press the axle on the floor. there's a technique of pushing on the rim with your elbows as to taco it in order to fix these things. i had to fix a taco that was over 2-3 spokes and not much more than that. that's another reason for going that high tension with nipple turn, the precise straightening of the rim.


as to nipple pull through... it mostly happens with large tension variance, when spokes at 4:30 and 7:30 have significantly larger added tension when under large loads. the higher the average tension the more aditional spoke tension for those spokes. the less tension variance... you get the point.

so yes, nipple pull through occurs. either from stress corrosion cracking or fatigue in riding a wheel that has tension all over the place and not a high compressed rim that is so from a high average tension.

i'd say the fewer the spokes the more tension they get at those 4:30 and 7:30 positions. reasons are:
1. less compression of the rim (less spokes) makes it deflect more right at the point of maximum tire contact - that deflection pulls the rest of the rim away from the hub;
2. less distance between spokes make the spokes that keep it together get more aditional tension.

so i'm perfectly fine with a 36h wheel that has the spokes it does (thick and short DT Alpine) at about 150kgf average spoke tension (~160kgf being the maximum) when the tire is not inflated and not mounted as well. the tire mounted on the rim seat lowering spoke tension even with 0 psi is another thing to wonder at. it can be easily explained by anyone figuring out that you need a proper thick tape.



i dunno about anti-seize reducing friction good enough for such tension i was happy to go at as explained why as well. i now trust wax based lubricants and will maybe add some linseed oil with talcum powder to inhibit corrosion whenever i'll work on other wheels in the future. a bit of linseed oil prevents nipple unscrew when zero tension from large enough radial loads occur. copper anti-seize does exactly that: prevent corrosion.

the wax will dry out and prevent corrosion. you can mix in something to prevent bacteria from degrading the wax. the larger the chain of the molecule the slower the process. i've read that the microcrystalline kind is less biodegradeable so you might use that as it's both more elastic than straight paraffin and you also can find the kind that has 80C melting point. i have also read that linseed oil should be good enough at inhibiting corrosion and also being somehow antibacterial in its nature.

Originally Posted by Reynolds

Am I the only one who thinks there's a LOT of overthinking going on here?

Originally Posted by Mad Honk

... I will try to not be sucked in again.... Smiles, MH

Originally Posted by Mad Honk

You guys are gonna hafta teach me how to use the ignore button on this guy. Way too much information overload on a simple problem. MH

Originally Posted by Mad Honk

Shelbyfv,3-A, BG, TS, Wiz, and the rest of the gang,
This discussion is like a black hole... every time it comes up it sucks us all in, and we are left trying to decipher what the OP is talking about.

Originally Posted by Reynolds

Am I the only one who thinks there's a LOT of overthinking going on here?

Originally Posted by harshbarj

Got the new wheel back. While there is still some bending at the nipples, it's perhaps 20% of what the other builds have had. Thanks to a 2x lacing the bending that way is almost non existent now. Only bending left is outwards as the spokes go to the wide hub. So only time will tell how this wheel will hold up.

The rim seems to be a blunt SS(it's not marked, but it's the only 700c rim they make that matches the measurements of this rim) and the spokes are a 2mm strait gauge Phil Wood's. Total damage was $192 ish for the build. Back to a ramen diet for a while.....

Originally Posted by adipe

this is the mechanics section. if you don't want to think go ride.
your post here is troll-ish, it gives democracy the vote into unscientific dogma.

no mean to offend, just that i'm on the defense.

i have been accused of encouraging others to overtension so as to cause nipple pull through the rim.

i thought i should point out that there are dynamic loads (anyone who hasn't figured this out can watch this video to have some clues) when riding causing additional spoke tension (4.30, 7:30, see "ANSYS Model" video) and if there is uniform spoke tension those additional tensions are lower for the same maximum spoke tension compared to a wheel that does have significant spoke tension variance. other factors that limit the appropriate spoke tension are NDS spoke thickness and spoke count also. general practice tolerates spoke tension variance up to +/- 20% so that is why the manufacturers recommend the maximum spoke tension at a much lower figure than for say +/-5% DS tension variance which is achievable together with +/-0.05mm radial and lateral runout (LE: comparison with what is considered by some to be "extreme" but i consider workable and appropriate higher tension for larger loads to be handled).

i also thought to point out that fatigue and stress corrosion cracking need the chemical factor present as to have cracks propagated.

so, there are plenty of others that are less thinking and rely on dogma.
if you don't want to think or bring scientific argument for or against anything here you are free to bother yourself on other topics where you need to think less.

you can't overthink when it comes to people needing strong wheels and have to deal with 2x spoke cross for electric motor hubs as this is the case of this thread being started. there are clydes as well. some people need to go beyond the recommended maximum spoke tension by understanding that it can be exceeded provided the chemical factor in stress corrosion cracking is not present and that the spoke tension variance is low by a precise wheel build which should imply the straightening of the rim in many cases. i had no creak on the eyelets when reaching 180kgf and i explained that i wax lubricated everything that needed to be so. you may take this as anecdotal evidence. or you can have a look here or here or here. the friction coefficient can be more than 3x lower if best lubrication is provided. manufacturers never specify that if you don't use lubrication you should be building with lower spoke tension. manufacturers don't want to overcomplicate stuff except when it comes to them building the wheels, not when selling stuff.

and i was not saying that everyone would be able to to follow my practice even for the parameters (spoke thickness etc.) i provided. YMMV.

or... lets not think. let's just vote according to bicycle aesthetics, have popularity votes.
let's just protest against bafanging etc. or maybe ridicule the people who go riding e-bikes not for the sake of competition or exercise but need quicker and safer commutes so that they go 20 miles in less than one hour regardless of wind etc... slow riding on roads where cars go at high speed is no fun, everyone knows it.

let's just throw less thinking ridicule and enjoy that we are on the more numerous side.
bolshevik means on the majority.

what you were saying was like: <<hey, anyone else agrees with me so that we can form a majority? can i find some other troll-like people around here to defend dogma against "overthinking"?>>
a majority of not so obvious trolls.

this is why i will be adding you to my "ignore list" from now as i don't rely on moderators to give warning and eventually block people like you who initiate flame. same for the other user adding only a popcorn remark without adding anything else but the implied agreement to the other person's attack on my part which can only be seen as on the right if someone reads stuff out of context as regarding why i don't mind going to extreme tensions only to back off to the appropriate tension given the circumstances.

and then you accuse me of giving all the reasoning and all the circumstances.

i either am wrong for not thinking enough or am wrong for overthinking. not being lazy and not relying on dogma and general practice. or maybe i am guilty of having other people start building and repairing their own wheels (therefore making some of the "professional" wheel builders being either foolish and/or crooks) and seeing that wheel building is not so complicated after all after i give away the research i've done and also the ways you can get away without a precise and expensive spoke tension meter or without dial gauges.

so, which one is it? - rhetorical question, this is the "mechanics" section. for which guilt do i need to be lynched?
i won't be bothered to read your possible answer as i'm pissed off enough to add you to the ignore list for all these reasons.

Originally Posted by adipe

this is the mechanics section. if you don't want to think go ride....

or... lets not think. let's just vote according to bicycle aesthetics, have popularity votes.
let's just protest against bafanging etc. or maybe ridicule the people who go riding e-bikes not for the sake of competition or exercise but need quicker and safer commutes so that they go 20 miles in less than one hour regardless of wind etc... slow riding on roads where cars go at high speed is no fun, everyone knows it.

let's just throw less thinking ridicule and enjoy that we are on the more numerous side.
bolshevik means on the majority.

what you were saying was like: <<hey, anyone else agrees with me so that we can form a majority? can i find some other troll-like people around here to defend dogma against "overthinking"?>>
a majority of not so obvious trolls.

Originally Posted by mpetry912

I think what I would do is use a pair of pliers to introduce a bend about 1" above the nipple, so as to get back to perpendicular. Bending the spoke here will not affect the strength in any meaningful way, and it will improve the loads on the rim and hopefully reduce the propensity to crack.

Do that for all "pulling" spokes, that is, the ones that will carry the torque load from the motor.