Replacing drive side spokes enroute
#26
Senior Member
The problem is that the “stronger, stiffer” rim doesn’t have anything that makes it stronger nor stiffer. If you look at the profiles of the rims, the rims that are supposedly “stronger” don’t have any thicker material. They are usually wider or taller but they use the same wall thickness as narrower rims. No extra metal is added except that needed for the extra width or height. I’ve done calculations based on the profile and the increased volume of of wider or taller rims and all of the extra metal is accounted for by the change in dimension. A “stronger” rim to me would mean one that has more metal to provide that strength.
Typically your average strong touring rim is going to have a pretty high profile. Of course then there's deep V's which probably wouldn't be a bad choice overall.
Of course then there are reinforced spoke beds like the ryde andra line of rims, but that doesn't directly affect the stiffness of the rim. Then again there's also added wall thickness in the andra rims overall so they're pretty beefy and indestructible. My tourer has andra 321 with 36 DT Swiss alpine 3's. Those are pretty strong wheels.
Additionally, if you change the metal of the rim from aluminum to steel, the steel rim is significantly stronger and stiffer than an equivalent aluminum rim. It would resist the decrease in tension far better than an aluminum rim will but even the significant increase in strength doesn’t provide any protection against spoke breakage. Spokes still break on steel wheels.
Hjertberg has another, far nerdier, article on spokes in which he posits that the increases in wheel strength are due to better metallurgy of the spokes.
The ability of low spoke count wheels to better withstand the rigors of riding has less to do with the rim than the far better spokes we have available today. I have no problem doing off-road bikepacking trips on some of the lightest, (presumably) weakest rims around…395g Mavic XC717 or 422g Velocity Aeroheats. But I pair them to DT Apline III or Pillar triple butted spokes. I went from regular spoke breakage pre-Alpine III use to no spoke breakage post Alpine III use. I haven’t changed how I build.
#27
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Shape is more important than wall thickness. A taller rim is going to be stronger and resist deformation than a shallower rim that has the extra material put to wall thickness. That isn't to say that wall thickness doesn't matter because it obviously does. However it is less important a consideration than shape.
Typically your average strong touring rim is going to have a pretty high profile. Of course then there's deep V's which probably wouldn't be a bad choice overall.
Typically your average strong touring rim is going to have a pretty high profile. Of course then there's deep V's which probably wouldn't be a bad choice overall.
Full disclosure: I do have Deep Vs on my touring bike. I don’t have them because of the strength and some would question using a rim with a 14mm internal width with 32 to 38mm tires. I don’t have a problem with the tires but others might. I don’t find them any different from any other rim I currently use, however. I still build with triple butted spokes because that’s where the strength is needed…not in the rim.
All things considered, however, I’d have no issue touring on an A23. It’s stiff enough and strong enough for touring. It’s also the only rim in the Velocity line that offers off-center drilling which goes a very long way in terms of wheel strength by significantly reducing the drive side/nondrive side tension imbalance.
Of course then there are reinforced spoke beds like the ryde andra line of rims, but that doesn't directly affect the stiffness of the rim. Then again there's also added wall thickness in the andra rims overall so they're pretty beefy and indestructible. My tourer has andra 321 with 36 DT Swiss alpine 3's. Those are pretty strong wheels.
However, the common wisdom for spokes is that once you’ve broken a few of them…estimate range from 2 to 5…the wheel needs to be rebuilt with brand new spokes. The reason for that is that the other spokes tend to get stressed with a spoke breaks and can ultimately fail as other spokes break. In other words, a broke rim is a fairly minor repair. A broke spoke is far more serious and more likely to result in needing a new wheel.
My wheels with Dyad or A23 rims or even the slightly heavier Deep V are equally strong but weigh significantly less.
Now that all would be true if all factors were equal. But they aren't are they? There aren't any steel rims with the same profile and wall thicknesses of aluminum rims. Steel rims typically have pretty squat profiles and they lack the double wall construction of aluminum rims as well as the material uniformity and wall thickness variability you get with extrusion. If you've got a solid block of material or a piece that's a bunch of folded sheets, the solid block is going to be stiffer.
One of the reasons why wheels can go with lower spoke counts is higher rim profiles. Once high profile carbon rims entered the foray, you could effectively build "smaller" wheels with shorter spokes and with the added benefit of a rim that exhibits practically zero deformation in any direction.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
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Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#28
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I have read of a dodge that I have not tried: buy an extra-long spoke for this job. On the spot put a 90 degree-plus bend in it where you would need it to be, then just 2mm later, where the head would be (the width of needlenose pliers tips?) put another 90 to direct it back to straight. Threading this into place can be done without removing the freewheel and apparently it does the job.
I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has actually done this...
I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has actually done this...
The problem is that the “stronger, stiffer” rim doesn’t have anything that makes it stronger nor stiffer. If you look at the profiles of the rims, the rims that are supposedly “stronger” don’t have any thicker material. They are usually wider or taller but they use the same wall thickness as narrower rims. No extra metal is added except that needed for the extra width or height. I’ve done calculations based on the profile and the increased volume of of wider or taller rims and all of the extra metal is accounted for by the change in dimension. A “stronger” rim to me would mean one that has more metal to provide that strength.
Hjertberg has another, far nerdier, article on spokes in which he posits that the increases in wheel strength are due to better metallurgy of the spokes.
The ability of low spoke count wheels to better withstand the rigors of riding has less to do with the rim than the far better spokes we have available today. I have no problem doing off-road bikepacking trips on some of the lightest, (presumably) weakest rims around…395g Mavic XC717 or 422g Velocity Aeroheats. But I pair them to DT Apline III or Pillar triple butted spokes. I went from regular spoke breakage pre-Alpine III use to no spoke breakage post Alpine III use. I haven’t changed how I build.
Again, you are giving credit where it isn’t due. High profile rims have been available for a very long time. Bad spokes aren’t less likely to break just because of the rim’s profile. The improvement in materials of the spoke has more to do with the wheel strength and ability to use few spokes. As a large rider carrying heavy loads and riding in tough conditions, I still wouldn’t trust a low spoke wheel to stand up to the rigors that I put my wheels through. But I also realize that I don’t need to drag around hundreds of more grams of wheel weight than I need to if I use a better spoke.
#29
Senior Member
There is only a slight difference due to rim shape and the rims that are marketed as being “stronger” are typically wider, flatter models like the Velocity NoBS (620g in 700C) or Atlas (620g) or Cliff Hanger (675g). They are heavier and wider so the must be stronger, right? Even the high profile rims like the Deep V (580g) only offer marginal compressional strength over something like a A23 (450g). The Deep V is far narrower as well so it doesn’t offer much lateral stiffness as Dyad (535g) or A23 do. Both of those are significantly wider. The Deep V does offer a shorter spoke length which is something of a plus.
Mind you, different companies have different philosophies regarding how to make a rim durable. The DT Swiss TK540 is not particularly heavy at 540g, but it is one of the most durable touring rims out there. It has a relatively high profile and double eyelets (which DT Swiss seems to believe to work).
Ryde on the other hand makes some of the heaviest rims on the market and that weight is put directly towards the extra thick spoke bed, allowing for really high build tensions as well as added wall thickness. And of course the wider Andra models are particularly wide. The Andra line is also relatively high profile compared to squat road or MTB rims.
The common theme with touring rims is that they are typically both relatively wide to accept wider tires as well as tall for added vertical stiffness. Road rims are often high profile but quite narrow (though with the more common use of wide road tires that’s changing fast). MTB rims are often wide but quite low profile to save weight. You could say touring rims combine the best of both worlds.
Lateral stiffness is something I don’t consider to be at all important as the spokes are supposed to handle that aspect of the wheel.
Full disclosure: I do have Deep Vs on my touring bike. I don’t have them because of the strength and some would question using a rim with a 14mm internal width with 32 to 38mm tires. I don’t have a problem with the tires but others might. I don’t find them any different from any other rim I currently use, however. I still build with triple butted spokes because that’s where the strength is needed…not in the rim.
All things considered, however, I’d have no issue touring on an A23. It’s stiff enough and strong enough for touring. It’s also the only rim in the Velocity line that offers off-center drilling which goes a very long way in terms of wheel strength by significantly reducing the drive side/nondrive side tension imbalance.
Are broken rims a common problem? I’ve built, used, and destroyed a lot of wheels as well as rebuilt a lot of those destroyed wheels. I’ve worn out only a handful of rim brake rims in 40+ years of riding and building. I’ve cracked quite a few more rims. But I’ve, by far, broken far more spokes. A worn out or cracked rim can be relatively easily replaced as long as the rim is the same or has the same ERD without changing out the spokes. The wheel is just as strong as it was before.
I chose the Andra rim with the reinforced spoke bed because I knew I was going to be putting some intense loads on the wheels. I’ve mentioned before elsewhere that my latest touring system load was around 200kg. Some of it was on a trailer and thus not constantly loading the bike. However, when you brake all that weight is going to be transferred to the wheels. Add a bouncy gravel descent and I’m glad I chose beefy.
Oh, and the andra 321’s were cheap. They were something like 20 euros a pop. The reason I avoid Velocity is that they are way too pricey in the EU. I can get welded DT Swiss for cheaper.
I prefer not to break a rim because getting a new one with the same ERD on tour can be a serious Via Dolorosa even in the EU. It will likely require the shipping of a new rim to the destination we are at the time of rim failure. Next day deliveries are a thing if said rim is in stock at a vendor that provides such service.
However, the common wisdom for spokes is that once you’ve broken a few of them…estimate range from 2 to 5…the wheel needs to be rebuilt with brand new spokes. The reason for that is that the other spokes tend to get stressed with a spoke breaks and can ultimately fail as other spokes break. In other words, a broke rim is a fairly minor repair. A broke spoke is far more serious and more likely to result in needing a new wheel.
My wheels with Dyad or A23 rims or even the slightly heavier Deep V are equally strong but weigh significantly less.
Aluminum rims need the double wall construction to make them stiff enough for use in a wheel. Single wall aluminum rims are around and they aren’t all that strong nor stiff. My point with steel rims is that even with a single wall, they are very stiff and strong but they aren’t any less prone to breaking spokes than aluminum is.
While we are at it, one other interesting point about stiffness is that wall thickness matters more than the material. Steel is three times stiffer than aluminum. However, an aluminum sheet that’s three times thicker than a steel sheet is going to be much stiffer than the steel sheet.
Comparing steel rims to aluminum rims is apples and oranges.
Again, you are giving credit where it isn’t due. High profile rims have been available for a very long time. Bad spokes aren’t less likely to break just because of the rim’s profile. The improvement in materials of the spoke has more to do with the wheel strength and ability to use few spokes. As a large rider carrying heavy loads and riding in tough conditions, I still wouldn’t trust a low spoke wheel to stand up to the rigors that I put my wheels through. But I also realize that I don’t need to drag around hundreds of more grams of wheel weight than I need to if I use a better spoke.
Wheel durability has likely increased due to all the relevant factors improving incrementally. There are better spokes, there are better rims and there are better hubs.
#30
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Shape matters a lot and you sort of contradict yourself here. You mention no extra material is needed except the material needed to make the shape but that's still more material which would increase stiffness. Further, shape by itself changes stiffness. Take all the metal of an I-beam and lay it out flat and it won't handle anywhere near the load of the same metal in I-beam shape. It isn't just the amount of metal that matters but the shape as well.
Shape of the rim has little to do with this flexing of the rim. The difference in the shape just isn’t different enough to make that much difference.
Although I believe spoke metallurgy and design have changed the strength, so has similar changes in material and design of the rim. Older rims were easy to flex by hand vs newer rims in general.
But spoke breakage isn't necessarily a reflection of wheel strength vs spoke strength, picking the right components for the job is important. But wheel strength is more the ability of the wheel to resist deformation and maintain its shape. Proper spoke tension is important to this point as is the rim material.
I agree that care should be taken when picking components for a wheel. Spokes are on of the components of the wheel. But, all too often, spokes are an afterthought. Even here on the Bike Forums, there are endless questions about which hub to pick and which “strong” rim to pick but very few people even consider which spoke to use. If the problem is broken spokes, the solutions is not a different rim.
The stronger the wheel as a unit, and the better the tension is maintained, the better every part of the system will hold up. Rolf as an example didn't use stronger spokes then what was available at the time they first came out and he attributed the strength to rim design and profile. Giving all credit to the spokes ignores the system and the biggest improvements there have been the rims.
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#31
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I’m not entirely sure the added weight isn’t going to additional wall thickness in the rims you outlined. The Atlas for example isn’t particularly tall nor wide but still it is incredibly heavy. That weight must be somewhere. The Cliffhanger is wide for wider tires and that adds weight. But it also seems to have a reinforced spoke bed which allows for higher build tensions. The Atlas seems to have that too, but it’s not as obvious from the profile. The NoBS product description states that it has extra thick sidewalls and 15 % thicker spoke bed, which would account for the extra weight.
Mind you, different companies have different philosophies regarding how to make a rim durable. The DT Swiss TK540 is not particularly heavy at 540g, but it is one of the most durable touring rims out there. It has a relatively high profile and double eyelets (which DT Swiss seems to believe to work).
Ryde on the other hand makes some of the heaviest rims on the market and that weight is put directly towards the extra thick spoke bed, allowing for really high build tensions as well as added wall thickness. And of course the wider Andra models are particularly wide. The Andra line is also relatively high profile compared to squat road or MTB rims.
The common theme with touring rims is that they are typically both relatively wide to accept wider tires as well as tall for added vertical stiffness. Road rims are often high profile but quite narrow (though with the more common use of wide road tires that’s changing fast). MTB rims are often wide but quite low profile to save weight. You could say touring rims combine the best of both worlds.
Lateral stiffness is something I don’t consider to be at all important as the spokes are supposed to handle that aspect of the wheel.
Deep V probably isn’t a bad rim for touring purposes but as you outlined, it is a bit narrow. That would be an issue for me but then again I like to dabble with the idea of some day mounting 45mm or even 47mm tires on my tourer.
Now that asymmetric thing should definitely be more common! Sadly there aren’t many asymmetric rims ticking enough boxes. But perhaps that’ll change too in time.
Now if you mean to say that the wheels you have with the Dyads, A23’s or Deep V’s are equally strong as the wheelset I described, they aren’t. The rim does matter. Well, if the A23’s are asymmetric that wheelset might well be stronger for less weight. Actually, maybe the Deep V’s too. But those are narrow so not a good fit for my use case. Dyads? Definitely not.
This one is carrying a load of close to 140 kg but is subjected to far more demanding riding. The other bike gets ridden on most smooth roads. This one is ridden on unpaved roads where the term “road” is somewhat nebulous. It’s using Aeroheats which are similar to the Dyad.
And my point is that a double walled extruded aluminum rim is a homogenous piece of metal with varying thicknesses. Those properties are going to make the rim stiffer than a steel rim which is just folded sheet metal. Those folds move about, and the underlying steel is still very thin. The spoke beds are thin and give more than an aluminum spoke bed in an aluminum rim. If you could extrude steel to a rim shape you could get a stronger stiffer rim, but it would also be far heavier.
While we are at it, one other interesting point about stiffness is that wall thickness matters more than the material. Steel is three times stiffer than aluminum. However, an aluminum sheet that’s three times thicker than a steel sheet is going to be much stiffer than the steel sheet.
Comparing steel rims to aluminum rims is apples and oranges.
Wheel durability has likely increased due to all the relevant factors improving incrementally. There are better spokes, there are better rims and there are better hubs.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#32
Senior Member
hey Cycco, sort of off topic, but on my Troll I have a set of those same XC 717 rims, narrow internal diameter, probably exactly the same as yours. They have been on the bike now for all kinds of trips, and I've been pleasantly surprised by how well they have held up. The rear rim even got a slight ding in it six years ago and has been fine since, didn't even break a spoke.
I found it interesting that a rim designed for XC mountain biking has performed so well touring, but I do realize that me and even the heaviest of my touring loads is probably less than a lot of much heavier riders with no luggage at all, so being a lightweight has its advantages with regarding rim choice and what will work.
I just got some DT swiss touring or e bike rims to one day replace the 717s.
I found it interesting that a rim designed for XC mountain biking has performed so well touring, but I do realize that me and even the heaviest of my touring loads is probably less than a lot of much heavier riders with no luggage at all, so being a lightweight has its advantages with regarding rim choice and what will work.
I just got some DT swiss touring or e bike rims to one day replace the 717s.
#33
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hey Cycco, sort of off topic, but on my Troll I have a set of those same XC 717 rims, narrow internal diameter, probably exactly the same as yours. They have been on the bike now for all kinds of trips, and I've been pleasantly surprised by how well they have held up. The rear rim even got a slight ding in it six years ago and has been fine since, didn't even break a spoke.
I found it interesting that a rim designed for XC mountain biking has performed so well touring, but I do realize that me and even the heaviest of my touring loads is probably less than a lot of much heavier riders with no luggage at all, so being a lightweight has its advantages with regarding rim choice and what will work.
I just got some DT swiss touring or e bike rims to one day replace the 717s.
I found it interesting that a rim designed for XC mountain biking has performed so well touring, but I do realize that me and even the heaviest of my touring loads is probably less than a lot of much heavier riders with no luggage at all, so being a lightweight has its advantages with regarding rim choice and what will work.
I just got some DT swiss touring or e bike rims to one day replace the 717s.
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#34
Senior Member
But again, I'm only 135 so a lot of leeway.