jrobe

Just for the fun of it, I would like to ride one of his bikes. I have a suspicion that I wouldn't be selling my Cervelo R3 or any of the other "off the shelf" bikes I have owned. Anyone else been able to make a similiar comparison??

55/Rad

You do that big boy.

ViperZ

My goodness, you want one? Get in line...

Ya don't ...? Ride on...!

This roughing up of others is just crazy talk.

sfcrossrider

I've raced many "off the shelf" bikes, and several customs since I started racing track in 1986. I've raced MANY aluminum, carbon, and steel bikes in BMX, track, xcmtb, and road races... mostly at the expert level. I also have spent a lot of time, and money the last few years learning to build my own frames, which I can do reasonably well with enough time to correct silly mistakes.

I wish Richard would extend his list another few months so I could get on it. Does that answer your question.

FlowerBlossom

+1.

Psimet2001 

Well...that's kind of the point to a Sachs rig....with them being virtually impossible to get or ride you basically always get to take someone else's word on it. What's more is that person's opinion will always be right by default. Nothing to contrast it with.

....how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop?

....what's the best saddle (and no it's not a Brooks you hippies)?

redmist

what's the big deal? either you want a frame, or you don't- it's pretty cut and dry. it's not like those waiting for a frame can't ride another bike while waiting for a RS (or SW) frame to be finished. why does it matter if joe blow in idaho wants to wait 5 years for a frame? how does that affect your life? i can tell you that 55/Rad waiting to get his paint finished isn't ruining my life. DarrenCT paying $3,000+ for a RS frame didn't affect my life one bit- and if he thinks it's the best frame he's ever had the chance to ride- good for him!


maybe some people just want something to hate.

Psimet2001 

Why do you hate haters?

redmist

life's too short to have to listen to negativity. i'd rather do my own thing than worry about what others are doing.

mazdaspeed

Here is a question:

How many of the people hating on these frames have ridden one?

And:

How many of you can afford one?

I think that should clear things up pretty fast.

Psimet2001 

That's kind of the point. There aren't enough for many to actually ride. As for who can afford one...you have to be kidding me. After you take out the starving college students on here just about everyone else can.

Again...not really the point. IIRC it isn't necessarily Sachs intent to price these into the stratosphere or make them unavailable to all but a select few. I do truly believe he simply is a well regarded craftsman who has been blessed with the opportunity to conduct business in a way that he prefers - maintaining the "integrity" of his product in his eyes while affording him the opportunity to live his life the way he wants....just want any man would want I would assume.

Hope I haven't come off as a Sachs hater on this one - because I am not - I just get bugged when people start worshipping ANY bicycle.

....except for 7-Eleven Serotta frame....those are OK to worship because they were made by god and ridden by angels.

Surferbruce

i'd go for a Kirk, Mooney, or a Bohemian before a Sachs. There's so many talented frame builders right now.
the deal comes down to handmade. I'd love a Crumpton or Ruegamer too. Even something like a Time is very handmade (did you know they only allow women to do their cf layups?), and for me holds a lot more value than say a PedalForce or Giant.
you can argue all you want about art vs. tool - form vs. function, but when all the elements of something so complex all come together under the hands of a master craftsman (or woman), just for you, it's something more than just buying off the rack at the local shop.

BikerJoeP

Amen Brother!!!!! I mean whata stupid comparison

BikerJoeP

Touche!!!

DrPete 

I don't think you know what that means. Or certainly not how to use it in this context.

skinny

Of course, you are doing the presentation. But it doesn't take anywhere near three hours to align a frame and you don't have to skip processes like you suggest to properly align a frame. In the shop I was at, we tacked the main triangle, aligned, brazed the main triangle, aligned, brazed stays, aligned, etc... There were many alignment steps and they were performed on a machinists table with a dial guage. If I say alignment of a frame took an hour of total build time, I'm overestimating. Now any builder worth his salt knows that if you put a perfectly aligned frame under a rider, it takes less energy to ride and the rider perceives it to be a better riding frame. These frames are literally raved about and sought after I think because alignment was heavily emphasized. They did use all investment cast fixtures that come with the right tolerances for proper brazing, which along with the reduced finish time is the main reason builders use them-less prep. You don't have to skip proper lug fit it you are using quality investment cast lugs, bottom brackets, crowns, etc... with standard tube diameters as it was all done back in the day. If you want to carve little flames into the lugs like some builders, then yes, the instability in the lug requires more attention. But good investment cast lugs require little prep. This isn't Mercian hearth brazing custom cut lugs and tapping with a hammer to close the tolerances between the lug and the tube. And if one wants an example of how it is possible to get proper lug fit with investment cast lugs and dramatically reduce production time, one only needs to consider the 80's example of Trek who were building high end frames with silver brazing, which for the uninitiated requires the most exacting tolerance between lug and tube, and doing it quite well. They didn't have Joe Bell paint to fancy them up, but they were straight, rode well and lasted with no compromise in lug fit.

sacha white

^^^ Skinny,

In my experience, to do things right, it takes the amount of time that I spend. If I could spend less time and have things be at the level that I want them to be, I would spend less time.

The way that I have designed my process, alignment takes the time that it takes, lug fit up takes what it takes etc.

In my experience IC lugs NEVER fit up perfectly right out of the box. Depending on the tube, they are either too loose, or too tight. Getting them to where they need to be is part of the deal for me.

If your experience is different than mine, great. But don't Fuing call me out like I am making this ***** up. That's not my style.

And by the way, if you are going to come in here like a big man framebuilder, use your real name for christ sake.

skinny

I wasn't calling you out and I wasn't acting the big man frame builder. Didn't mean to activate your ego. I was really just informing the readers that there is another side to the issues you raised. Just as an example, you were the one that suggested that proper lug fit would be compromised on frames that didn't take 30 hours or "10 hour frames" as you called them. But if the tolerances are such that good flow is accomplished throughout the lug, what difference does it make if it takes 15 minutes or an hour to prep it. The end result is a strong frame. TREK was the perfect example. I merely tried to make this and other points clearer to people reading.

Now, any more names you'd like to call me? I haven't been called "big man" since high school. You're making me feel young again.

sacha white

I think he meant "oh snap!!!", or maybe "booyah!!!"

DrPete 

Probably. Whatever.

MacBeth

Well, I have one on order, and happily my wait will only be about 2 more years.

I love the bikes and the approach Richard takes to his work. I want to support people like him.

I have a woodshop where I build furniture. You can go to Wallyworld and purchase perfectly servicable furniture. You could buy from me at 3 times the price and still have perfectly servicable furniture. Most go to Wallyworld. Those who buy from me have their reasons. Go figure.

Psimet2001 

Admittedly knowing little to nothing about the specific suppliers supplying the castings in these cases, but speaking as someone who fights with foundries daily, and has mountains of foundry scrap sitting in my casting yard....

...I can believe it would take a mountain of time to obtain what Sacha is wishing to achieve.

....as a mass producer of extremely tight toleranced power transmission components...the whole idea of crafts manufacturing of anything makes my skin crawl. At least you guys have an opportunity to deploy many Lean fundamentals.

Hopefully you all use Lean fundamentals in your offices to help let you work on the business instead of in the business.

DrPete 

Real wood?

It's a little depressing to think what will be in antique shops 100 years from now after all the particle board has disintegrated.

iab

Why do you hate Motorola Eddy Merckx frames? They were ridden by angels too.

And why didn't you man-up and by that Hampsten bike?

Psimet2001 

Meh...Don't know why. Probably because they don't say "Huffy" on them.

As for the Hampsten bike....I had to ignore the listing as soon as you sent it to me. Otherwise I would have done something very silly ....like buy it.

Instead I just went out and rode....

Also, somthing about that listing was fishy. Almost like it was really saying, "just like Hampsten's bike". It looked right, felt right, and probably even smelled right, but something about the whole thing was a little off. Probably the real frame, but everything else was bought and put on....


.....wait a minute...what did you just do to me...???