Challenge Criterium open tubular a no-go on Velocity A23’s
11-27-18, 01:46 PM
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Challenge Criterium open tubular a no-go on Velocity A23’s
QWow - I’m giving up for now! For nearly 2 hours I have been trying to mount some Challenge Criterium 700x25 open tubulars onto my Velocity A23 rims. I wore through a set of Michelin Power All-Season tires and wanted to try something different. I was planning on re-using the Vittoria latex tubes. These worked well with the Michelins.
Previously I had Velox tape (19mm width) when I ran the Michelin’s. It was tight but I made it work. For this install I got rid of the Velox and wrapped 2 layers of 19mm tubeless tape on there and poked a hole through for the latex inner tube valve. So far so good. I was having no luck stuffing the latex inner tube into the tire once I got one bead on the rim.
Upon looking at a few YouTube videos and double checking the visual instructions on the box, I saw where they recommend seating the valve last (not first). So I tried that. I get down to the last 6” or so of unmounted bead before it is just ridiculously tight. 2 plastic tire levers can’t even get enough purchase on that bead which just doesn’t want to cooperate. Tire lever free mounting seems out of the question and I’m amazed how the guy mounting Paris Roubaix tires did it with just his hands.
I will I’ll go back at this later, possibly going to give up on this combination. Maybe the ERD on the Velocities is just too much of an incompatibility.
Please help!! Any suggestions on how to get these tires to mount would be met with much gratitude!
Previously I had Velox tape (19mm width) when I ran the Michelin’s. It was tight but I made it work. For this install I got rid of the Velox and wrapped 2 layers of 19mm tubeless tape on there and poked a hole through for the latex inner tube valve. So far so good. I was having no luck stuffing the latex inner tube into the tire once I got one bead on the rim.
Upon looking at a few YouTube videos and double checking the visual instructions on the box, I saw where they recommend seating the valve last (not first). So I tried that. I get down to the last 6” or so of unmounted bead before it is just ridiculously tight. 2 plastic tire levers can’t even get enough purchase on that bead which just doesn’t want to cooperate. Tire lever free mounting seems out of the question and I’m amazed how the guy mounting Paris Roubaix tires did it with just his hands.
I will I’ll go back at this later, possibly going to give up on this combination. Maybe the ERD on the Velocities is just too much of an incompatibility.
Please help!! Any suggestions on how to get these tires to mount would be met with much gratitude!
11-27-18, 01:53 PM
#2
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Try a different tire, or a different wheel ? you choose..
Operating at 100+psi I like tight tires better than loose fitting ones..
Operating at 100+psi I like tight tires better than loose fitting ones..
11-27-18, 03:33 PM
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Another option I’m considering w/ these A23 wheels is to just install tubeless valves, mount some Panaracer 25mm tubeless tires and fill with 2 once’s of stan’s sealant,
11-27-18, 03:33 PM
#4
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Two hours? Not worth it. It doesn't even matter if you have missed something or if someone's brilliant suggestion could help you get it on. Don't spend any more of your life trying to mount this tire.
11-27-18, 04:01 PM
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i’m annoyed & depressed - why I the world won’t these tires mount?
11-27-18, 04:29 PM
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I've been experimenting with tubeless. Got my first unsealable hole yesterday. Whew, what a pain.
What I realized is that I should have left one bead in place while I cleaned everything, removed the tubeless valve and installed the tube and second bead.
After puncturing my two spare tubes, I patched one tube, and moved my rear non-tubeless tire to the front (Ultegra WH-6800) and moved the tubeless tire to the rear (tubeless ready, but less of a shelf, WH-RS10).
I've given up on Velox tape in general. It is too thick. The WH-6800's are tapeless.
I'm still searching for the best tape, but not going through that many wheels that need it, so I haven't done a lot of experimenting.
Some people are using a tubeless tape, and others are using a strong packing tape.
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...-rim-tape.html
Your idea of doing the valve last might help some. I did that with the original tubeless install, I think. It should allow you to force the tire down into the channel better.
But, tire + tube is much more difficult to get everything down in the channel than simply tubeless tire.
Would it be possible to work the first bead up onto the shelf before installing the second bead?
What I realized is that I should have left one bead in place while I cleaned everything, removed the tubeless valve and installed the tube and second bead.
After puncturing my two spare tubes, I patched one tube, and moved my rear non-tubeless tire to the front (Ultegra WH-6800) and moved the tubeless tire to the rear (tubeless ready, but less of a shelf, WH-RS10).
I've given up on Velox tape in general. It is too thick. The WH-6800's are tapeless.
I'm still searching for the best tape, but not going through that many wheels that need it, so I haven't done a lot of experimenting.
Some people are using a tubeless tape, and others are using a strong packing tape.
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...-rim-tape.html
Your idea of doing the valve last might help some. I did that with the original tubeless install, I think. It should allow you to force the tire down into the channel better.
But, tire + tube is much more difficult to get everything down in the channel than simply tubeless tire.
Would it be possible to work the first bead up onto the shelf before installing the second bead?
11-27-18, 05:46 PM
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I've been experimenting with tubeless. Got my first unsealable hole yesterday. Whew, what a pain.
What I realized is that I should have left one bead in place while I cleaned everything, removed the tubeless valve and installed the tube and second bead.
After puncturing my two spare tubes, I patched one tube, and moved my rear non-tubeless tire to the front (Ultegra WH-6800) and moved the tubeless tire to the rear (tubeless ready, but less of a shelf, WH-RS10).
I've given up on Velox tape in general. It is too thick. The WH-6800's are tapeless.
I'm still searching for the best tape, but not going through that many wheels that need it, so I haven't done a lot of experimenting.
Some people are using a tubeless tape, and others are using a strong packing tape.
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...-rim-tape.html
Your idea of doing the valve last might help some. I did that with the original tubeless install, I think. It should allow you to force the tire down into the channel better.
But, tire + tube is much more difficult to get everything down in the channel than simply tubeless tire.
Would it be possible to work the first bead up onto the shelf before installing the second bead?
What I realized is that I should have left one bead in place while I cleaned everything, removed the tubeless valve and installed the tube and second bead.
After puncturing my two spare tubes, I patched one tube, and moved my rear non-tubeless tire to the front (Ultegra WH-6800) and moved the tubeless tire to the rear (tubeless ready, but less of a shelf, WH-RS10).
I've given up on Velox tape in general. It is too thick. The WH-6800's are tapeless.
I'm still searching for the best tape, but not going through that many wheels that need it, so I haven't done a lot of experimenting.
Some people are using a tubeless tape, and others are using a strong packing tape.
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...-rim-tape.html
Your idea of doing the valve last might help some. I did that with the original tubeless install, I think. It should allow you to force the tire down into the channel better.
But, tire + tube is much more difficult to get everything down in the channel than simply tubeless tire.
Would it be possible to work the first bead up onto the shelf before installing the second bead?
11-27-18, 06:40 PM
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tire jack
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11-27-18, 06:55 PM
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[left]
So far the bead that is already mounted is riding in the middle depression in the rim. I saw (on a you tube video) where a person with hot water heat placed their tire on a radiator prior to installation. I would be curious about the effectiveness of something like that & what alternatives are there? Can a clincher tire be pre-stretched?
So far the bead that is already mounted is riding in the middle depression in the rim. I saw (on a you tube video) where a person with hot water heat placed their tire on a radiator prior to installation. I would be curious about the effectiveness of something like that & what alternatives are there? Can a clincher tire be pre-stretched?
I probably should re-do my tires on my road bike now that I'm back home. What a pain to work on tires in the middle of the night at a truck stop 60 miles from home (I suppose better than on the road shoulder).
Anyway, my idea is to mount the first bead, then use the thumbs to push it into place. After the first bead is in place, install the tube and the second bead. At least that is the theory, we'll see how it actually goes in practice.
11-27-18, 08:56 PM
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QWow - I’m giving up for now! For nearly 2 hours I have been trying to mount some Challenge Criterium 700x25 open tubulars onto my Velocity A23 rims. I wore through a set of Michelin Power All-Season tires and wanted to try something different. I was planning on re-using the Vittoria latex tubes. These worked well with the Michelins.
Previously I had Velox tape (19mm width) when I ran the Michelin’s. It was tight but I made it work. For this install I got rid of the Velox and wrapped 2 layers of 19mm tubeless tape on there and poked a hole through for the latex inner tube valve. So far so good. I was having no luck stuffing the latex inner tube into the tire once I got one bead on the rim.
Upon looking at a few YouTube videos and double checking the visual instructions on the box, I saw where they recommend seating the valve last (not first). So I tried that. I get down to the last 6” or so of unmounted bead before it is just ridiculously tight. 2 plastic tire levers can’t even get enough purchase on that bead which just doesn’t want to cooperate. Tire lever free mounting seems out of the question and I’m amazed how the guy mounting Paris Roubaix tires did it with just his hands.
I will I’ll go back at this later, possibly going to give up on this combination. Maybe the ERD on the Velocities is just too much of an incompatibility.
Please help!! Any suggestions on how to get these tires to mount would be met with much gratitude!
Previously I had Velox tape (19mm width) when I ran the Michelin’s. It was tight but I made it work. For this install I got rid of the Velox and wrapped 2 layers of 19mm tubeless tape on there and poked a hole through for the latex inner tube valve. So far so good. I was having no luck stuffing the latex inner tube into the tire once I got one bead on the rim.
Upon looking at a few YouTube videos and double checking the visual instructions on the box, I saw where they recommend seating the valve last (not first). So I tried that. I get down to the last 6” or so of unmounted bead before it is just ridiculously tight. 2 plastic tire levers can’t even get enough purchase on that bead which just doesn’t want to cooperate. Tire lever free mounting seems out of the question and I’m amazed how the guy mounting Paris Roubaix tires did it with just his hands.
I will I’ll go back at this later, possibly going to give up on this combination. Maybe the ERD on the Velocities is just too much of an incompatibility.
Please help!! Any suggestions on how to get these tires to mount would be met with much gratitude!
=8-(
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5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
11-28-18, 03:01 AM
#11
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"Why in the world won't these tires mount?"
Because the standards for bead seat dimension and design are at best rather loose and so are the standards for the tire bead. Right now the ISO is hard at work trying to figure out some way to get tubeless installation better and more predictable. When that work is complete there should be benefits all up and down the line. Until then it's good luck sucker.
FWIW I've installed a lot of Paris Roubaix without tools. Wider tires are easier. And Velocity rims have lots of problems. Recently I installed a Vittoria Corsa G 25 on an old Mavic G40. It took half an hour and was darn near my limit. Only persisted because it was for my wife and she really likes those tires. Right at the end the way to make it happen became clear but still not sure if I would repeat that install on any old narrow Mavic.
Long enough ago that Michelin Hi-Lite was the standard gofast tire I had an early morning flat when the temp was about 35 and going down, the mist was changing to snow. The tire wasn't just cold and wet, it was oily. There was no good place to work. Sitting in wind and road spray off rush hour traffic. Finally got it done, then flatted the other wheel. Resolved that henceforth only tire/rim combinations that did not make me crazy were eligible for use on my bikes.
Because the standards for bead seat dimension and design are at best rather loose and so are the standards for the tire bead. Right now the ISO is hard at work trying to figure out some way to get tubeless installation better and more predictable. When that work is complete there should be benefits all up and down the line. Until then it's good luck sucker.
FWIW I've installed a lot of Paris Roubaix without tools. Wider tires are easier. And Velocity rims have lots of problems. Recently I installed a Vittoria Corsa G 25 on an old Mavic G40. It took half an hour and was darn near my limit. Only persisted because it was for my wife and she really likes those tires. Right at the end the way to make it happen became clear but still not sure if I would repeat that install on any old narrow Mavic.
Long enough ago that Michelin Hi-Lite was the standard gofast tire I had an early morning flat when the temp was about 35 and going down, the mist was changing to snow. The tire wasn't just cold and wet, it was oily. There was no good place to work. Sitting in wind and road spray off rush hour traffic. Finally got it done, then flatted the other wheel. Resolved that henceforth only tire/rim combinations that did not make me crazy were eligible for use on my bikes.
11-28-18, 03:40 AM
#12
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So why is it the first bead always goes on easy and the second is sometimes impossible? I meant its the same rim and its not like one bead is any different than the other. Im speculating if you know the answer to this question you are well on your way to easier tyre mounting.
11-28-18, 05:16 AM
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So why is it the first bead always goes on easy and the second is sometimes impossible? I meant its the same rim and its not like one bead is any different than the other. Im speculating if you know the answer to this question you are well on your way to easier tyre mounting.
11-28-18, 05:53 AM
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Open tubulars are like regular tubulars. Brand new they're very stiff, but once you have them mounted and pumped up for a day they come off and go back on very easily. It's the threads inside the casing that stretch, not the rubber. Since open tubulars have very high threads per inch they're going to be stiffer brand new than a regular chincher. Get the tire beaded as much as you can then use shoestring or something to tie the tire down on each side of the section you still need to bead. Then when you muscle the last part on the tire won't unbead because you have it tied town to the rim.
If you have another set of wheels you could see if they go on those easier then just keep them pumped up overnight to stretch it out.
If you have another set of wheels you could see if they go on those easier then just keep them pumped up overnight to stretch it out.
Last edited by Lazyass; 11-28-18 at 05:56 AM.
11-28-18, 11:37 AM
#15
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Kool stop is a shop tire jack, VAR makes a smaller carry along..
I bring 2 in the spare tube & patch kit bag on my bike with tight fitting tires..
3 tire levers get them off ..
...
I bring 2 in the spare tube & patch kit bag on my bike with tight fitting tires..
3 tire levers get them off ..
...
11-28-18, 11:44 AM
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Open tubulars are like regular tubulars. Brand new they're very stiff, but once you have them mounted and pumped up for a day they come off and go back on very easily. It's the threads inside the casing that stretch, not the rubber. Since open tubulars have very high threads per inch they're going to be stiffer brand new than a regular chincher. Get the tire beaded as much as you can then use shoestring or something to tie the tire down on each side of the section you still need to bead. Then when you muscle the last part on the tire won't unbead because you have it tied town to the rim.
If you have another set of wheels you could see if they go on those easier then just keep them pumped up overnight to stretch it out.
If you have another set of wheels you could see if they go on those easier then just keep them pumped up overnight to stretch it out.
I will I’ll try these suggestions. Not sure if tying a shoelace on wheel at location of unseated tire but it is worth a try.
I kind of thought that they would loosen up once mounted. I may try some of my spare wheels laying around to see if they mount any better.
11-28-18, 11:46 AM
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I’d be willing to try them again but the cost on the ones I’ve seen is like $15 each.
11-28-18, 03:03 PM
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11-28-18, 04:04 PM
#19
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I broke off the molded in 2nd tire lever that was part of the tire jack, filed it's stump smooth ,
Over last 25 years, .. I occasionally kept using them for the skinny tire bike's wheels
I rarely ride any more..
Realistically,
a small variation in tires and rims , in many thousands produced , seems a given..
Over last 25 years, .. I occasionally kept using them for the skinny tire bike's wheels
I rarely ride any more..
Realistically,
a small variation in tires and rims , in many thousands produced , seems a given..
11-28-18, 06:28 PM
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Open tubulars are like regular tubulars. Brand new they're very stiff, but once you have them mounted and pumped up for a day they come off and go back on very easily. It's the threads inside the casing that stretch, not the rubber. Since open tubulars have very high threads per inch they're going to be stiffer brand new than a regular chincher. Get the tire beaded as much as you can then use shoestring or something to tie the tire down on each side of the section you still need to bead. Then when you muscle the last part on the tire won't unbead because you have it tied town to the rim.
If you have another set of wheels you could see if they go on those easier then just keep them pumped up overnight to stretch it out.
If you have another set of wheels you could see if they go on those easier then just keep them pumped up overnight to stretch it out.
11-30-18, 01:27 PM
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These look like they would work well. I’m gonna get on for sure. I also recall seeing a shoptool grade tire jack that mounts on your axle and telescopes out to the rim and you rotate it around the hub. I thought it was made by Crank Brothers but I can’t find a match. Does this product ring a bell with anybody?
12-01-18, 02:59 PM
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Good news! Tire is mounted and I’m using a standard butyl tube for now. I’ll be out riding tomorrow on my steed. Am curious about this Challenge tire. It looks like it will have a nice ride but not be very long wearing.
I showed the rim tire combination to my LBS mechanic and he could see that I was “almost there”. I did not want him to do it for me. I had to do it myself. My polished Velocity A23 had been looking real shiny, now it has a bunch of tire smudges all over it. Hopefully their mirror polish will come back...
I showed the rim tire combination to my LBS mechanic and he could see that I was “almost there”. I did not want him to do it for me. I had to do it myself. My polished Velocity A23 had been looking real shiny, now it has a bunch of tire smudges all over it. Hopefully their mirror polish will come back...
12-01-18, 03:42 PM
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Good news! Tire is mounted and I’m using a standard butyl tube for now. I’ll be out riding tomorrow on my steed. Am curious about this Challenge tire. It looks like it will have a nice ride but not be very long wearing.
I showed the rim tire combination to my LBS mechanic and he could see that I was “almost there”. I did not want him to do it for me. I had to do it myself. My polished Velocity A23 had been looking real shiny, now it has a bunch of tire smudges all over it. Hopefully their mirror polish will come back...
I showed the rim tire combination to my LBS mechanic and he could see that I was “almost there”. I did not want him to do it for me. I had to do it myself. My polished Velocity A23 had been looking real shiny, now it has a bunch of tire smudges all over it. Hopefully their mirror polish will come back...
Good luck with your first flat when it is about 25° out. No, not Australian 25°... good old American 25°
Maybe some light snow or sleet.
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