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Most compatible Shimano splined cassette for a Campy rider?

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Most compatible Shimano splined cassette for a Campy rider?

Old 09-14-18, 02:40 AM
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zacster
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Most compatible Shimano splined cassette for a Campy rider?

I just bought the Wahoo Kickr Core wheel off trainer and I'm going to need a cassette to put on it. It comes with a Shimano freehub and I don't believe there is a conversion hub yet for Campy. What Shimano system gives the closest approximation of Campy 10? I know it won't be perfect, and I'm not looking to modify the drivetrain with a shiftmate or anything else. Is there a Shimano splined but campy spaced cassette available? I know there used to be, but it didn't work well as the position still wasn't right so you had to mess with the limit screws.

When my bike was still relatively new I put a Shimano 10 wheel on it and did a long ride, and came home and swore I'd never do that again. Shifting basically sucked. Even though it was a better wheel I gave up trying and ultimately bought a similar wheel with Campy.

So, is Shimano 10 as close as I'll get? Or is there something from Miche? or SRAM, or Shimano 9? Shimano 11? or will I need a different chain? It is an indoor trainer, ERG mode so I don't have to shift a lot, but it does need to work OK.

I love my Campy gear but I wish it were a little more compatible with everything else. As I look around I keep reading the 11 speed is pretty much the same across all the systems but not the 10.
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Old 09-14-18, 09:03 AM
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Campag made a driver for their hubs to use shimano cassettes, Part in a bag, last seen online (at $100)

IDK for what cog count it was.. (then) seems their freehub drivers had support bearings,
shimano only the axle ones..

Only tourists have Campag , they're passing through, not residents..









o
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Old 09-14-18, 03:11 PM
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Upgrading to Campy 11 takes care of that problem, since both 11 speed cassettes are close to the same spacing. It's about time, since 11 speed has bee available for over 9 years. I changed all of mine over in 2009. Most bikes could be done with nothing but a cassette, chain and shifters. Reselling the old 10 speed parts makes the swtich even cheaper.
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Old 09-14-18, 03:28 PM
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I'm not looking to change the bike, it is staying Chorus 10. I've never seen the need to go to 11. This Isn't Spinal Tap.

And the hub on the bike isn't the issue, it is the freehub on the trainer.

I'll probably just put a Shimano 10 on it and learn to live with it. In ERG mode you don't need to shift much anyway.
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Old 09-14-18, 03:40 PM
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There is/was an American Classic Conversion Cassette. I presume you could find one if you hunted. E-Bay?

American Classic

Maybe other brands too.

Looking at the cassette pitch:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bicycl...ing_Dimensions

9s Shimano: Pitch: 4.35mm, Sprocket: 1.78mm, Spacer: 2.54mm.
10s Shimano: Pitch: 3.95mm, Sprocket: 1.6mm, Spacer: 2.35mm, Stack: 37.2mm
10s Campagnolo: Pitch: 4.15mm, Sprocket: 1.7mm, Spacer: 2.42mm, Stack 38.8mm
11s Shimano: Stack: 39.0mm

So, the Campagnolo pitch is about 0.2mm wider than Shimano. And, over 5 speeds from the middle, that is 1.0mm (which may or may not work), but over 10 speeds, adds up to about 2.0mm.

This means that you should be pretty close if you found a 10s cassette with 100% loose (or riveted) cogs. For example, Shimano 4700/HG500 cassette.

Then replaced the 10s spacers with 9s (2.54mm) spacers.

Your cassette will be about 2mm wider, and you would be best off using an 11s freehub. If you don't have a 11s freehub, you could mount 9 of 10 sprockets, lock out one sprocket on the derailleur, and whatever spacers you need.

Once you build the first conversion cassette, then just keep the spacers, and the future ones should be easy to configure.

You may have issues with sprockets with built in spacers. It looks like the 4700 cassette above has 2 or 3 sprockets with built in spacers depending on the version. That may not be enough to cause issues. You could probably thin a 9s sprocket to work if needed (11T, 12T, and maybe 13T).

Last edited by CliffordK; 09-14-18 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 09-14-18, 04:00 PM
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I haven't found any conversion cassettes yet. Wheels MFG also used to have, but both WM and AC were expensive. I had looked into these years ago when I bought a Campy bike but had a pair of nice Shimano wheels. Ultimately I just bought some Campy wheels.

And of course Campy 10 is midway between Shimano 9 and 10 in pitch, so neither will work.

The freehub on the trainer is 11 speed, so I have some leeway with what goes on.

Again, I'll try a 10s Shimano and hope for the best.
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Old 09-14-18, 04:25 PM
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I'd buy a 10 pack of the 9s spacers. They aren't too expensive.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Pack-Shi...r/253527609221

Bust apart a 10s cassette, and try it out.

Perhaps also a 1mm spacer, just in case you need it.
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Old 09-14-18, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
I'd buy a 10 pack of the 9s spacers. They aren't too expensive.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Pack-Shi...r/253527609221

Bust apart a 10s cassette, and try it out.

Perhaps also a 1mm spacer, just in case you need it.
+++++ ditto.
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Old 09-14-18, 06:56 PM
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A 10-speed Campy spaced cassette is too wide to fit on a Shimano freehub. It will fit on an 11-speed Shimano freehub.

I know you don't want to change the drivetrain, but the best solution is running a 1992-2000 vintage Campagnolo indexing rear derailleur with you current 10-speed Campy shifters. I've been doing this for years - the shifting is flawless. The slightly lower actuation ratio of the older derailleurs exactly compensates for the narrower cog spacing of the Shimano system. I just works.

These older Campy rear derailleurs (with the B-tension screw) are relatively cheap and easy to find on Ebay.
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Old 09-14-18, 09:21 PM
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You all aren't getting one point. I want to keep the bike the way it is. It is flawless for shifting and I don't want to muck it up, What I want is a cassette that will work on the trainer, on the trainer's freehub.

It comes with an 11 speed freehub for Shimano so maybe the spacers will work. I believe I have a spare Shimano 10sp cassette already, so I can try putting the spacers on just for the price of the spacers. And even if I have to buy a cassette, well I need one in any case. My commuter bike is Shimano 10 with Dynasys XT derailleurs. Maybe I could just use that but it won't have the road bike feel.

My Chorus build is very nice, why would I downgrade it to ride indoors?

And in any event, the trainer won't arrive until October so I have time to explore.
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Old 09-14-18, 10:24 PM
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Keep in mind, if you are swapping wheels on the bike, you probably should touch up the derailleur adjustments with every wheel swap.

Probably not a big deal, but an extra step.
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Old 09-15-18, 12:25 AM
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There aren't any really great products out there for this that I'm aware of. You could try messing with spacers. Complain to Wahoo. Maybe buy things that will work together in the first place?

Also, you could buy an inexpensive road bike with Shimano or Sram or Campy 11 drivetrain and permanently install it on the trainer. Would save wear on your nice bike and require less fuss swapping between on road and indoors.
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Old 09-15-18, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by cpach
There aren't any really great products out there for this that I'm aware of. You could try messing with spacers. Complain to Wahoo. Maybe buy things that will work together in the first place?

Also, you could buy an inexpensive road bike with Shimano or Sram or Campy 11 drivetrain and permanently install it on the trainer. Would save wear on your nice bike and require less fuss swapping between on road and indoors.
The problem is that none of the current generation of smart, wheel-off trainers support Campy 10. Wahoo supported it up to 2016 but no longer with the newer ones. I think since Campy 11 works with Shimano they just dropped it as only us old folk are still using 10. As for buying another road bike, my wife would throw me out of the house! We already have 9 bikes in the house. But I do have a friction shifted classic Campy SR bike that could go on the trainer and with friction shifting it doesn't matter what the spacing is. I'd have to get a new saddle for it as it has the original from the 1980s still. I don't know what they were thinking back then, but they weren't taking into consideration the shape of one's arse.

In any case I'm looking forward to having a smart trainer this winter. As much as I could follow along with a power meter on a dumb trainer I still felt there was something missing. I'll have to make sure I have FTP/4DP numbers set correctly so it doesn't kill me.

Last edited by zacster; 09-15-18 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 09-18-18, 02:37 PM
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Ok, I've been checking specs out all over the place. If I get an Ultegra 12-25 CS6700 10sp cassette, there will be 3 small cogs with built in 2.35 spacers, 4 cogs with 4 2.35 spacers between them, and the 3 cog single unit, with a built in spacer against the last free cog, and a 1mm spacer at the back. If I replace the 4x2.35 spacers with 4x2.54 spacers from a 9 speed, and add .2mm spacers in with the small cogs, and a .2mm spacer between the single unit and the last free cog, I come out to 38.71mm, without the last 1mm spacer at the back. That compares to the 38.8 of a Campy cassette, with maybe one gear slightly off, and 39mm of an 11sp cassette. If I put another .2mm spacer at the back I get 38.91. The only question would then be where does a Campy cassette line up, and then I'd have to adjust my last spacer accordingly.

With this arrangement only the 2nd largest cog could even potentially be out of alignment, but so slightly I doubt it would be an issue at all. And I'll be on a trainer and not out on the road so it won't matter much anyway, just don't use it. And the truth of the matter is that I probably don't have my Campy cassette tuned that closely anyway.

Now all I have to do is find .2mm spacers that fit the outside diameter of the splines. Does anybody know the diameter of them? None of the diagrams I've found show that. .2mm is pretty thin but I see them available I just need the size.

Am I thinking about all this correctly?

Edit: I just realized if I had .2mm spacers I don't need the 9 speed spacers, just add .2mm there as well to the originals. If it was this easy I'm surprised this isn't just a common kluge. Just the last 2 cogs aren't spaced correctly, and the last one is set by the limit screw anyway.

Last edited by zacster; 09-18-18 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 09-19-18, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by zacster
The problem is that none of the current generation of smart, wheel-off trainers support Campy 10. Wahoo supported it up to 2016 but no longer with the newer ones. I think since Campy 11 works with Shimano they just dropped it as only us old folk are still using 10. .
It is entirely possible that the freehub is made by another manufacturer. I bought an Elite Drivo trainer last spring and was able to order a Campagnolo compatible freehub for it. When I received it, I discovered that the freehub was manufactured by Miche
Mavic used to make a cassette that fit their Shimano splined cassette bodies. These cassettes were available with spacers for either Shimano or Campagnolo cog spacing. This is why Mavic freehub bodies were able to convert to 11 speed Shimano cassettes without modification

​​​​​​https://thebloomingpoint.com/mavic-m1...cycleworldcouk

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Old 09-19-18, 11:10 AM
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https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/jtek-engineering/

'shift mate' is now a British based product.

they alter the cable pull per lever click..

to sync the incompatible..





.

Last edited by fietsbob; 09-19-18 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 09-19-18, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/jtek-engineering/

'shift mate' is now a British based product.

they alter the cable pull per lever click..

to sync the incompatible..





.
Again I'll say it. I am NOT looking to change the bike. I am perfectly happy with my Campy 10 setup. It is only the trainer that I am looking to modify, and then only the cassette on the trainer. I will alter the spacing to match the pull rather than the other way around. I am a package of 0.2mm 35x45 spacers away from having a close to perfect match.
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Old 09-19-18, 12:15 PM
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Miche ? https://www.miche.it/

Bought the wrong one? Buy a LeMond Trainer instead? or Rollers?

or just buy another bike to leave on the trainer?
it can be heavy , since it's going nowhere..

I just ride my bike year around, outside, here..





....

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Old 09-19-18, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by zacster
Again I'll say it. I am NOT looking to change the bike. I am perfectly happy with my Campy 10 setup. It is only the trainer that I am looking to modify, and then only the cassette on the trainer. I will alter the spacing to match the pull rather than the other way around. I am a package of 0.2mm 35x45 spacers away from having a close to perfect match.
Yes, I understand this. In my previous post I showed information about Mavic cassettes that fit Shimano spline pattern freehubs. If you could find one that came with the correct spacers for Campagnolo 10 speed, you could use it on your trainer.
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Old 09-19-18, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
Yes, I understand this. In my previous post I showed information about Mavic cassettes that fit Shimano spline pattern freehubs. If you could find one that came with the correct spacers for Campagnolo 10 speed, you could use it on your trainer.
Yea, I looked, but they just don't seem to be available anymore. I think my solution of 0.2mm spacers should work on a Shimano cassette. I think I figured out too why this wasn't done before because it just seems too easy. Back in the days of just 10 speed, not 11, the freehub couldn't take the extra spacers. With 11 speed hub you have much more room for spacers with 10 cogs. I'll just insert one between each loose cog on a CS6700 and it'll be pretty close to Campy spacing. Only the 2 largest won't be spaced correctly since the last 3 are a single unit, but the largest has the limit screw leaving only one cog that MAY not be spaced correctly. NBD. When I used a Shimano wheel on this bike about half the cogs would be quiet and the other half I'd have to jockey around.

On a related note, I took the Campy cassette off the wheel because I've been having clicking noises, and the 2nd from largest also was very noisy. I cleaned them all off so they are shiny, put it back together and slience! I also adjusted the derailleur and lubed the chain with Squirt wax. I've basically rebuilt the entire drive train of this bike over the last few weeks trying to find the source of the clicking. BB, chainrings, crank, pedals, pedal threads, seatpost, cleats, derailleur hanger, chainring bolts, all those things that can make noise, lubed and re-assembled. The bike isn't new anymore I guess.
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Old 09-19-18, 03:47 PM
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0.2mm washers would be thin, but you can probably find them somewhere. You can measure your freehub, and don't really need notches.

I'd go with regular spacers wherever they would work, but perhaps use the thin washers in places that had built in spacers. I don't know if spacing out the first couple of sprockets would be good, but perhaps it would be OK to use stock spacing between the 11T and 12T, but add a spacer between 12T and 13T (or whatever you are using).

I believe that in general, Dura Ace and Ultegra level cassettes use 2 common carriers.
105 level cassettes use 1 common carrier.
Sora/Tiagara, and lower quality cassettes don't use common carriers.

Also consider, if this is mainly be used on a trainer, you might not actually be using all 10x2 speeds.
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Old 09-19-18, 03:49 PM
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Oh, keep in mind, some Dura Ace 10 speed freehubs use tall teeth, but these shouldn't be a problem with any other Shimano freehub.
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Old 09-19-18, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Oh, keep in mind, some Dura Ace 10 speed freehubs use tall teeth, but these shouldn't be a problem with any other Shimano freehub.
The Op is asking about an 11 speed freehub body on a new trainer. Nothing to do with long discontinued Shimano wheels
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Old 09-19-18, 07:09 PM
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Look around for some stiff plastic sheet that is 0.2mm thick. A few years ago I used those opaque plastic milk cartons to make some spacers to adjust a shimano 9spd cassette to Campy spacing (i think it was 0.3mm). Try the clear plastic film used in photo copiers for example.You need to cut them in a ring and scissors work OK. Inner diam fits over the spline and about 5mm more to outer diameter.
And I agree with CliffordK - use a cheap cassette as on 105/Ultegra/durace the large cogs are mounted to a separate aluminum carrier that is one piece so you cannot put spacers between the cogs.
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Old 09-19-18, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by bluehills3149
Look around for some stiff plastic sheet that is 0.2mm thick. A few years ago I used those opaque plastic milk cartons to make some spacers to adjust a shimano 9spd cassette to Campy spacing (i think it was 0.3mm). Try the clear plastic film used in photo copiers for example.You need to cut them in a ring and scissors work OK. Inner diam fits over the spline and about 5mm more to outer diameter.
And I agree with CliffordK - use a cheap cassette as on 105/Ultegra/durace the large cogs are mounted to a separate aluminum carrier that is one piece so you cannot put spacers between the cogs.
I'll look around at Staple tomorrow, or in the office. I guess it doesn't have to be pretty.
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