KlunkerBiker

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unworthy1

BB threading? Seatpost size? Forkcrown COULD be British (Haden or Davis) but the serial number sure does not look "Raleigh" to my eye.

USAZorro

The serial number font doesn't look like Raleigh. I can't make out the entire serial, but if it doesn't start with a W and have another letter immediately following, it DEFINITELY is not a Raleigh. Also a Raleigh Professional made in 1974 would have fastback stays. I do see the similarity with the rest of the lugs and the general shape of the fork crown though.

It looks like a very well made bicycle and with top of the line dropouts, but I think you can rule out Raleigh as the maker.

nlerner

I agree. Not a Raleigh. My WAG: Condor.

Charles Wahl

The fork crown ought to be distinctive enough for someone to identify the source for that. Long point lugs suggest 70s to me. WAG: Italvega?

noobinsf 

You may want to post a picture of the full frame in profile. Nice job on the detail shots. Maybe also show the lug points behind the head tube.

unworthy1

Italvega also popped into my head, but need to know the BB (it's prolly stamped on the cup if you get the cranks off) and I think it's the paint and chrome together that gives it that whiff, but not sure if these details match the top Italvega models; IIRC they had some disticntive BB shell piercings, correct? And those under BB cable guides, if original, point to a "late-late in the era '70s" or there were some later braze-ons. I don't know enough about what Condors look like to say yay or nay....paging MauriceMoss and some of the usual experts.

steve sumner

stays to dropout treatment looks Italian but the fork crown is NOT Cinelli
looks more like Davis which would lead to Brit build. BB threads will tell
under BB cable routing means 78 or later

mech986 

Wow, interesting find there. My size too! Where are you located again? Heh, so what’s the story behind this frame and fork and how did you get it?

The paint looks pretty good. The BB serial number looks pretty sharp but the possible size number a little filled in. The paint detail around the lugs looks like production though. If a repaint with a few mods, it was well done.

The lighting inside the garage may make color Identification a little harder because shading changes with lighting. Cameras can also change shading.

BB and numbers kinda looks a little like this:


Or with a little lighting effect:


The seat lug kinda looks like this:


or this:


The head lugs are similar to this:


Ignore the stack.

The bottom head lug and crown detail resembles this:


The head tube makes me think of this:


The fork treatment makes me think of this:



To be continued!

mech986 

and the rear Campy dropouts remind me of this with a couple of different details:



But gosh, even though it seems a little familiar, I just have no idea!

i would say though that you should be able to use your super sleuthing ability to figure out the BB threading without taking off the cranks. Just use a Sherlock Holmes method with one of his famous tools and look “wery, wery careful-wry” like this:


As Holmes would say: “Watson, their are still more clues and important details to uncover. The Inspectors above have mentioned a number of areas ripe for investigation so we must press on. More questioning and detailed viewing will be needed, but especially we must see the forest before we get lost among the trees. Even with a clever disguise to try to throw us off, we will reveal our mystery's true identity.”

“Remember, once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”

“Come Watson! The game is afoot! Or at the very least, in a toeclip!”

Bart

unworthy1

Well! Enough details match to say definitely is a Italvega (Torresini) product, even seems there was at least a model with Campy ends that did not get any BB shell piercings, like the "Super Light", but have welded shells. HOWever, either the OP's had the under-bb guides and stop brazed on after-market OR this was a latest of the '70s model, so would have been toward the end of the Italian line for the "-vegas" and just about when Mr. Lawee was transitioning to Japan and launching "Univega".

mech986 

my sense of it is a Torpado-Torresini product. Seeing as Klunkerbiker is in Idaho and not New York or Detroit, it’s more likely an Italvega branded than Torpado branded because Torpados were sold primarily in Canada in that era, probably a marketing agreement with Lawee.

I agree the BB cable guides and upside down shifter cable stop were brazed add on’s. The lack of lug lining and brown metallic shade difference suggests a repaint - from variously called cola, root beer, or cofffee brown to more of a milk chocolate or cocoa brown.

Discussion of early Italvega models:
All earlier 70-74 transition year Italvegas, AFAIK, had Agrati seamed and welded BB shells and the lug pattern varied a bit - I have seen three, maybe 4 variations through the years and models.

The Italvega models with full Columbus tubing frames (SP), forks and stays (exhibiting the early rectangular Columbus frame sticker in Italian, French or English) include the Super Speciale, Super Record, and the later 74-76 new model Super Speciale and Superlight. The Super Record also was a holdover through 74-76 and was upgraded . I have no solid documentation that Italvega produced (smaller?) frames made with SL tubing as all frames I have come across so far use a 27.0 seatpost.
The Italvega models with Campagnolo rear dropouts include the Super Speciale, Super Record, Gran Rallye, and Nuovo Record.

The Italvega models with Columbus trei tubing (3 tubes) frames and uncommon triangular gold tubing decal include the Gran Rallye, Gran Turismo, and Nuovo Record. The forks and stays were likely Falck tubing.
The Italvega models with stamped rear dropouts include the Gran Turismo and any model / frame which used a separate claw derailleur hanger.

The Italvega models with a sloping chromed fork crown would include the earlier Super Speciale, Super Record, Gran Rallye, and Nuovo Record. The later Super Record in the 74-76 brochure online stated it was a "Thomas Crown", not to be confused with Steve McQueen or Pierce Brosnan.
The Italvega models with flat fork crown include the Gran Turismo and all other lower level models.

The Italvega models with Campagnolo fork tips include the Super Speciale, Super Record, Gran Rallye.
The Italvega models with stamped fork tips include the Nuovo Record, Gran Turismo, and all other lower level bikes.

Once we see Klunkerbikes frame, we'll discuss the paint/chrome patterns. juvela also know a lot about these bikes.

unworthy1

Ital BB threads, Columbus fork blade decal (so another nail in any Brit bike theory) and you got this for FREE?! Nice going, I'm sure it will find a good home. You think it has clearance for "fat tires"? Hope so.

mech986 

Thanks Klunker for the update and additional photos. I forgot to ask you to detail the fork dropouts and tell us if they are Campagnolo tips or stamped tips. That will go a long way to differentiating the original model.

The remnant fork decal is a Columbus fork decal but a later one. No Italvega models from 1970-1976 ever had fork tubing decals so it was likely added during this frame’s refurbishment. The added braze-ons for shifters, cable runs and paint are evidence of this refurbishment.

Can you advise what other parts came with the bike as you received it? Nice to have gotten the Campagnolo Italian bottom bracket though. I wonder if any of the other parts were original?

Do you have access to your friend’s porteur bike for better and more recent closeup pics? From what I can tell, the porteur bike’s frame had a flat Italvega badge, so either 70 or 71 as the 3D badges with gold outlining came in 1972. Did that bike have Campy dropouts and fork tips, plus chromed seat stay caps? That and any BB serial numbers would help figure that bikes history.

mech986 

As for your question of what size wheels and tires may fit, assuming 700C wheels of sufficient width, I can attest to using 700C x 35 Compass (now René Herse) Bon Jon Pass Extralight casing tires on my 72 Super Speciale with Campagnolo Record brakes running about 45-50 psi front, 50-55psi rear, there may actually be enough clearance for 38’s at lower pressure.

It’s not easy though to get them up into the brakes without deflating the tires or taking off on pad holder. Centerpulls May be easier to navigate. The other downside is you must run the wheels way back in the rear dropouts for stay and crossbar clearance and the front tires may have toeclip or shoe overlap if you run long cranks, XXL clips like I do or wear long sized shoes. Also, the wider/larger the tire, the higher your bike rides so the top tube stand over and seat swing over heights go up too, possibly to the point of needing seat adjustments or even a next size smaller frame.

This may also also depend on the particular brand or model tire you use. Test fitting was always needed to be sure.

Here’s a pic of my Italvega Super Speciale as set up for Eroica California. Enjoy!



1972 Italvega Super Speciale, my high school senior bike.

verktyg 

Hey guys...

That one of the thickest powder coat jobs I've seen... Just sayin'

Italvega/Torpado with braze-ons added.

Well worth a respray and nice build.

verktyg

mech986 

Hi verktyg, I agree KB's frame is worth a nice build. I don't believe the finish is powder coat because its just so hard to mask off chrome lugs, fork ends, dropouts, and seat stay caps. My guess is the bike is a 71-72 based on the serial number, and a Super Record or Super Speciale frame based on the chromed Campagnolo dropouts, fork tips and seat stay caps. Unlikely to be the Gran Rallye since that usually included eyelets for racks but I suppose those could also have been removed during the previous refurbishment. The clear way to know would be to strip off all the paint and look for what parts of the frame are actually chromed. AFAIK, the Italvega frames are actually not fully chromed, or at least not fully polished chrome.

As it stands, the paint is in pretty decent conditions save for a few areas where its lifting at wear points like the dropouts and seat lug. I'd be inclined to leave the paint alone, add some nice contrasting lug lining, decals and a clear coat or lots of wax.

Yeah, that pretty much cinches it as the full Columbus SP tubing of either the Super Speciale or Super Record frame. They only varied by whether they had chrome rear stay socks and the level of Campagnolo equipment, particularly the brakes.

BTW, since you changed out the fork on the porteur bike, do you still have it? That could be useful to me if you don't need it.

Bart

repechage

I agree best answer an italvega or torpado branded frame, updated at some point, repainted. If not reduced, Imron would go on pretty thick.

mech986 

You're very welcome! To me, its always nice to see bikes get saved, especially when they are Italvega bikes. Everyone seems to remember them BITD but not very many of them survive or survive well. Hopefully, you may be riding this one at an Eroica California event in the near future.

Regarding the fork, Heh, a scavenged fork is why the frame ended up in a junk pile. You seem to find many gems in bike piles! I wish we could see the bikes and rescue them (in all the places they seem to show up) before they headed out to the crusher or landfills. You can just imagine how many classic steel bikes in Los Angeles and Orange County have been discarded by their owners.

juvela

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KlunkerBiker -

the forum has a lively thread "Show Us Your Torpado" in which all Torresini products are most welcome

you may wish to append your find to it...

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...r-torpado.html

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tip -

one simple check you could make would be to examine the interior of the frame's head tube to see if there is evidence of head emblem fastener holes being filled in. this could provide information to differentiate between the Torpado and ItalVega brands.

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Charles Wahl

Charles for the win. Enjoy the frame.

mech986 

juvela I've been meaning to ask you, where are your sources of info on lugs, BB shells, crowns and other frame details? You knowledge seems encyclopedic and I'd certainly love to study any sources you can point to. Thanks in advance for the education.

Bart