Armstrong investigation
02-04-12, 01:07 AM
#27
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If the feds spent all that time and money and didnt even seek an indictment then the evidence must have been non existent. You know the old saying "you can indict a ham sandwich". Well, if there was ANY evidence that the feds could have used they would have.
I would say this looks very good for Armstrong. Not that it will make any difference to the Lance haters though.
I would say this looks very good for Armstrong. Not that it will make any difference to the Lance haters though.
02-04-12, 08:05 AM
#28
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02-04-12, 08:06 AM
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02-04-12, 03:06 PM
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I hope the next employment Novitzky has entails the words, "Would you like fries with that?". I too want my money back. Headed out to buy more popcorn.
02-04-12, 04:57 PM
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Incidentally, if Lance was convicted of - or admitted to - doping, I would be one of the first people to say it doesn't detract from his cycling legacy in the least and that he still earned every one of his Tour titles. He came back from cancer to crush the rest of the top cyclists in the world in the context of a cycling system that largely sanctioned doping. Every guy that could conceivably have beaten Lance was more than likely doped, too. So I am anything but a Lance hater. It's the hypocrisy and mean-spirited attempts to humiliate his detractors and ruin their reputations that I find unsavory and disappointing. I am happy to consider Lance an amazing, inspiring athlete who's life and accomplishments - like those of many complex people, consist of both light and shadow. It's the silly cultural need to create saints and demons that is so unnecessarily polarizing and does not allow for the complexity of human motives and behavior.
02-04-12, 05:05 PM
#34
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Unfortunately Prosecutors at this level are looking to catch the golden goose that will make there careers.. This guy was known for catching high profile athletes, so they thought if anyone can catch Lance, he would be the one.
02-04-12, 05:12 PM
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Misses the point entirely. I have a certain standard for being convinced that someone committed a particular act that may be different from that of the legal system. That's as it should be. People beat raps. Investigations fail to build a strong enough case to convict guilty people. If we had Lance's blood parameters and analyzed them, we could know to a fair degree of certainty whether Lance doped, but this wouldn't lead to a conviction (or even doping sanction) even if his haematocrit was all over the map. If it went from 42 to 49 in the third week of a three-week stage race, it would be very strong evidence of doping, for example, but would not result in a testing "positive" or a criminal investigation. There's a difference between a warrantable assertion and a legal standard of proof in the context of a legal system that is based on the idea that it's better to let guilty people remain free than to punish the innocent. So your sarcastic comment about me knowing more than the feds is really a statement about your inability to distinguish apples from oranges.
Last edited by Kind of Blued; 02-04-12 at 05:20 PM.
02-04-12, 08:53 PM
#36
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Im sure Lance is somewhere right now, laughing his ball off.
Last edited by LemondFanForeve; 02-04-12 at 08:58 PM.
02-05-12, 02:38 PM
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But......what if he didn't do it? He's been analyzed, scrutinized, magnified, etc for over a decade closer than any other athlete EVER and there is not one clear shred of evidence that is unbiased. Everyone can have their opinion, but when it comes down to it.....the guy is innocent until PROVEN guilty. If there was a smoking gun, some hater would have found it. Why can't the guy be just THAT good?
02-05-12, 05:17 PM
#38
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But......what if he didn't do it? He's been analyzed, scrutinized, magnified, etc for over a decade closer than any other athlete EVER and there is not one clear shred of evidence that is unbiased. Everyone can have their opinion, but when it comes down to it.....the guy is innocent until PROVEN guilty. If there was a smoking gun, some hater would have found it. Why can't the guy be just THAT good?
02-05-12, 06:31 PM
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Some interesting things on Cycling Tips today...
https://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2012/02/too-big-to-fail/
https://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2012/02/too-big-to-fail/
02-05-12, 11:28 PM
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I'm not shutting up. They couldn't build a case. Doesn't prove innocence in the least. Doesn't mean the money for the investigation was well-spent, either. But Lance doped. There, I said it.
The linked article also notes that a couple of recent doping cases against athletes haven't yielded the hoped for results for the prosecutors. It's possible the feds felt that even a conviction wasn't worth the effort and expense if it failed to result in a slam-dunk, as the Bonds and Clemens trials have failed to do.
The linked article also notes that a couple of recent doping cases against athletes haven't yielded the hoped for results for the prosecutors. It's possible the feds felt that even a conviction wasn't worth the effort and expense if it failed to result in a slam-dunk, as the Bonds and Clemens trials have failed to do.
02-05-12, 11:52 PM
#41
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Isn't all this doped/clean talk premature. It seems like a federal fraud case was dropped. The doping on it's own isn't their jurisdiction. We have to wait for the USADA to finish before somebody can finally say I told you so.
02-06-12, 02:11 AM
#42
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Obviously everyone's minds have been made up for quite some time. there will not be a climactic 'gotcha' moment that sways one side to the other.
However, please understand that the investigation regarded LA possibly misappropriating funds, and laundering it to fund a doping program.
It was not merely an investigation to determine whether or not he doped. That was a side effect of what they were really going after.
Depending on whom you read/believe, the evidence that he doped was/is there, and all of his old team mates ratted him out.
Also depending on whom you believe, LA was completely clean and innocent, and all of those people were on a witch hunt.
Either way, you will be able to argue either point. so keep it up, or just let it go, and let your blood pressure subside...
Now, on to more pressing things- at least in America, cycling now has a blank slate and some legitimacy based on all of this, and team BMC is going to kill it this year in the Spring Classics
However, please understand that the investigation regarded LA possibly misappropriating funds, and laundering it to fund a doping program.
It was not merely an investigation to determine whether or not he doped. That was a side effect of what they were really going after.
Depending on whom you read/believe, the evidence that he doped was/is there, and all of his old team mates ratted him out.
Also depending on whom you believe, LA was completely clean and innocent, and all of those people were on a witch hunt.
Either way, you will be able to argue either point. so keep it up, or just let it go, and let your blood pressure subside...
Now, on to more pressing things- at least in America, cycling now has a blank slate and some legitimacy based on all of this, and team BMC is going to kill it this year in the Spring Classics
02-06-12, 07:32 AM
#43
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Millions out there attracted to conspiracy theories. They love this kind of thing - Marilyn Monroe, Lee Harvey Oswald, Lance. Makes for cheesy "unsolved mysteries" TV and corny movies.
As for the investigators and prosecutors involved, they build names and careers for themselves on this kind of thing, but they couldn't even get a bunt out of this one.
As for the investigators and prosecutors involved, they build names and careers for themselves on this kind of thing, but they couldn't even get a bunt out of this one.
02-06-12, 07:59 AM
#44
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Well, let me fire up my fiddle for poor ol' Betsy. Her testimony against Lance in the past was found to not be worth the breath she spoke it with. Also, you spelled her name wrong. So there.
The investigation concluded without finding. The evidence they uncovered, and the testimony they received, was not convincing or worth pursuing. I can make up a damning story about anybody, and accuse anyone of anything. Lacking evidence, it means nothing. Just like this case.
Lance got away with it. Period, end of discussion (yeah, right). Did he dope/cheat/launder money/eat babies? Maybe, but its plainly obvious that nobody, repeat nobody, can prove it. He's the king of cycling, and cycling is a cesspool full of cheaters. I accept that, and lose no sleep over it. I like baseball, too, but accept the fact that many of the best players in the sport are or were dopers. Its entertainment, so I really don't care one way or the other. I do like to talk about it from time to time, though...
The investigation concluded without finding. The evidence they uncovered, and the testimony they received, was not convincing or worth pursuing. I can make up a damning story about anybody, and accuse anyone of anything. Lacking evidence, it means nothing. Just like this case.
Lance got away with it. Period, end of discussion (yeah, right). Did he dope/cheat/launder money/eat babies? Maybe, but its plainly obvious that nobody, repeat nobody, can prove it. He's the king of cycling, and cycling is a cesspool full of cheaters. I accept that, and lose no sleep over it. I like baseball, too, but accept the fact that many of the best players in the sport are or were dopers. Its entertainment, so I really don't care one way or the other. I do like to talk about it from time to time, though...
