raybo

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I am adding some features to version 2 of the on-line bike touring game.

Let me start by saying that I have never stealth camped on tour. I have always camped in campgrounds or on people's property. But, I wanted to add stealth camping as an option in the game, as a number of people suggested it.

In designing the stealth camping feature, I wanted to make it a double edged option. That is, there is some change for both good (costs $0 and can be done almost anywhere) and bad outcomes (see below), just like in real life. While I am not trying to be "accurate," I do want it to be somewhat realistic.

My current thoughts:

No stealth camping in towns.

There is a 50/50 chance of finding a suitable spot to camp whenever someone opts to stealth camp.

If someone finds a spot:

60% - gets a good night's sleep
30% - gets a bad night's sleep, which reduces the number of miles they can ride the next day.
10% - they get "rousted" forcing them to spend the night in a (nearby) motel for $40+ and invokes a point penalty.

Independent of the above odds, there is a 10% chance that an animal gets any food they are carrying on their bike.

I realize these may not be true to life or match any one rider's personal experience. I am posting these to get feedback for inclusion in the game.

Thanks,

Ray

Machka 

You're right ... they don't match my experience.

First of all, I wouldn't call it "stealth camping". Free camping or wild camping or bush camping, or just pitching a tent in a likely-looking spot are better descriptions.


No stealth camping in towns ... depends a bit on the town, and what you might consider the town boundaries. Sometimes you can camp in town parks ... depends on the town and what kind of rules and regs they have posted. I spent a night on a grassy verge surrounding a truck stop/roadhouse in Queensland, right on the edge of a town once ... and that was fine.

As for finding a suitable spot ... I suppose it would depend a bit on where in the world you are. Here in Australia, your chances of finding a suitable spot (outside a large city) are pretty close to 100%. However if you were doing Jasper to Banff on the Icefield Parkway, it would be 0% ... there's no free camping allowed anywhere in the National Park.

As for the type of night's sleep ... again, it would depend where in the world you are. Here in Australia, there would be very little difficulty finding a spot, and should be very little reason why you'd have a bad night's sleep or be asked to move on. However if you did attempt to free camp somewhere between Jasper and Banff, you've got a good chance of being asked to move on.


So if the tour is taking place in Australia, I'd put the percentages at:

No stealth camping in towns over 10,000 people (a number picked out of the air to designate a larger town)

90% chance of finding a suitable spot

85% chance of getting a good night's sleep
10% chance of getting a bad night's sleep
5% chance of being asked to move on (which probably wouldn't happen unless you camped under a "No Camping" sign somewhere)


However, as mentioned, the percentages for other parts of the world will vary. So you might check what the rules for free camping are in various countries or parts of countries.

Burton

Personal security is an issue anytime anyone camps informally. Most 'restrictions' on camping in Canadian parks are usually for your own protection. In Western Canada there can be bear issues and in Eastern Canada there are coyote issues. Within city limits there can be issues with street gangs that frequent city parks after hours. That doesn't mean there are no homeless people living in the street and sleeping in city parks here, it just means that most of them have nothing worth stealing.

On the plus side of things, it's fairly easy to meet people while on tour and Canadians are generally hospitable and chances are you'll get an invite to sleep in someone's backyard or in the spare bedroom. In exchange for stories from your tour, of course!

My experiences in South America were pretty similar. Designated camping areas had continuous security monitoring. The most dangerous animals in every country seem to be the two-legged variety. In Canada it's only the commercial addresses that have barred doors and windows. In South America ALL the residential addresses have them. The more affluent addresses also have armed security guards, walled enclosures, guard dogs - or all of the above.

fietsbob

remote Norway and Sweden , no problem , legal.

perspiration

I see a lot of people on CGOAB do perfectly fine stealth camping all the way across America on the TransAm--finding a hospitable host for the evening is also fairly common.

Ekdog

Coyote issues? I've spent quite of bit of time around them in the Southwestern United States and in Baja California and have found them to be shy creatures that do their best to stay away from human beings.

Ekdog

I am baffled as to why some of you are on a bizarre crusade against this wonderfully descriptive term, especially when you go on to use it yourself a few lines later:


Camp stealthily
Under the radar
Under the stars
Avoiding detection
Courteously
Leaving no trace
Avoiding detection
Watchful!
Alert!
Stealthful!

Burton

Any information I personally post in this forum is intended to be accurate and helpful. Nice to hear that the coyotes in areas you've visited are little puppy dogs. I'm originally from Nova Scotia and there the coyotes have interbred with stray dogs, run in packs, and have become a problem so serious that the government has put a bounty on them. You just have to do a Google search using 'Nova Scotia coyote attacks' to confirm that over the past four or five years there have been numerous attacks, maulings and deaths from coyotes in that province.

Burton

I don't see any crusade. Someone said they wouldn't use that term themselves and then used it because that was the term the OP chose to request responses be posted against. What's the issue?

The thing that seems to be being overlooked is that even areas like crown land that it's legal to use - there's a catch. You're expected to report your presence and expected stay to whoever is responsible for the property. It's supposed to be be for your own protection on case of accident or mishap. But hey - be stealthy if you wish. If you go missing no-one will even notice.

Tansy

Guys, this doesn't have to be a stealth camping debate. The guy just wants some advise for his game...

My take on it:
You can stealth camp anywhere, but in a town with a population greater than 3000, the chance of not getting enough sleep or being ousted increases. Stealth camping in any town has a 15% chance of providing you with a free meal(friendly stranger offering you a meal or bringing you some energy bars), and a 2% of theft - maybe more if you want to include a 'Raccoon steals your breakfast' possibility. I think it would be fun to put in a 'find host' option with a 50% chance of success in towns with a population over 5000.

Machka 

I think the restrictions in National Parks in Canada has more to do with the desire to preserve the National Parks ... especially the ones along the Canadian Rockies which can see thousands of visitors every year. If they started letting people camp wherever they wanted to, the mess would be incredible.

Here in Australia, one of the reasons there are "No Camping" signs up in what might be considered nice camping areas (along pondages, rivers, etc.) is because there have been problems in the past with the mess campers make and leave behind.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And regarding camping freely ...

Here in Australia there are lots of State Forests where camping is allowed. It's free, and you don't have to be stealthy about camping there or anything. Same with rest areas on main highways. Many of them have a 48-hour stay restriction, so a cycletourist can stay there overnight or for a couple nights, free of charge. Again ... no stealth involved. And there are a few "bush camps" around which, again, are free. There are also beach camping areas which are often free, or available for a low fee ... but you do have to book and register for those.

You don't have to be stealthy in order to camp for free, and it wouldn't be difficult to find places to camp for free. It is, however, a good idea to "leave no trace" when you pack up to go.


raybo, a suggestion ... using Google, look up 'Free camping Canada', 'Free camping Australia', etc. just to get an idea of what's available.

The information you'll get will tell you what's available in terms of places designated for free camping ... and then add to that all the small groves of trees along the road, the quiet gravel roads, the grassy verges, etc. etc. where people can just pull up and pitch for the night.

Burton

Hey Machka,

Australia sounds like a lot of fun - I'll have to see about a visit 'down under' at some point!

Agree that most people are kinda irrisponsable campers, and unfortunately that just compounds any risks from wildlife. Within National Parks where camping is permitted, there are strict rules intended to keep both people and animals safe. If there is no camping permitted in some areas it's usually for the same reasons. I've tagged a few links from some of the parks. Unfortunately, regardless of posted notices, lots of people think that all wildlife is cute and harmless and there are usually a few incidents of cougar and bear attacks every year and the animals have to be trapped and destroyed.

https://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/ab/banff/visit/visit14.aspx

https://www.pc.gc.ca/docs/v-g/oursges...7/og-bm7a.aspx

https://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/nl/torngats/activ.aspx

https://www.env.gov.bc.ca/bcparks/exp...s/bearsaf.html

Burton

If this is a game and you're looking for ways to up your chances of meeting people and either being given permission to camp in someone's backyard, directions to a great place to stay, or just an invitation to share coffee and conversation, I always found that prominent signs of being a 'professional' tourist usually got me that.

That included a clean appearance, Canadian flags neatly sewn on packs, frequenting high traffic coffee shops like Tim Hortons where the bike would be parked just outside the entrance (an invitation to other bikers to look for the guy with the helmet), and a friendly approachable demeanor.

Don't know if you could use chance draws to acquire those but those are the suggestions that work for me anywhere.

Before ordering coffee at Tims I'd already have hit the washroom, opened my handlebar bag, washed my hair, shaved, washed down with a cloth, put on some deodorant, changed my shirt and brushed my teeth.

Ekdog

Lighten up, Burton! I have no doubt about you trying to be accurate. That's why I asked you about those aggressive coyotes. You see, this is a public forum. If you make a statement, others might comment on it or (gasp!) even share an experience that is different from yours.

I did take your advice and Googled for information about these attacks. This is what I found:

There are two recorded fatalities in North America from coyote attacks. In 1981 in Glendale, California, a coyote attacked toddler Kelly Keen, who was rescued by her father, but died in surgery due to blood loss and a broken neck.[62][66] In October 2009, Taylor Mitchell, a 19-year-old folk singer on tour, died from injuries sustained in an attack by a pair of coyotes while hiking in the Skyline Trail of the Cape Breton Highlands National Park in Nova Scotia, Canada.[67] Recent studies have shown, however, that the large northeastern coyotes responsible for this attack are coyote-wolf hybrids (or coywolves) due to absorption of wolves when coyotes moved into eastern North America.[68]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote

One death caused by coyotes in Nova Scotia. Unfortunate? Definitely. Worth getting alarmed about? I think not.

Machka 

raybo ... all of this is why I find the term "free camping" more all-encompassing than "stealth camping".


Free camping includes ...

• camping for free in areas which allow free camping (like state forests, rest areas, bush camps, etc.). Your search on "free camping" might turn up quite a few of these options. Tourism sites might also have some information.
  
• camping for free in areas where you have to register ... but there is no charge to stay (like certain parks, along certain sections of beaches, in remoter areas of the mountains, etc.). Again, searching on "free camping", or having a look through Tourism sites, might help locate these.

If you can find free camping areas (of the above 2 types) within 100 km of each other ... the chance of finding a suitable spot to camp would be quite high.

• camping for free in likely-looking, legal spots such as ditches and road reserves (for these, you might want to be discreet, so as not to be disturbed ... tucking in behind the shrubbery, etc.).
  
• camping for free in locations where it is probably in your best interest to be a bit on the stealthy side (perhaps in a more populated area where you don't want to be noticed)

Next time you go for a ride or drive, have a look at the ditch/road reserve and think to yourself ... "If I were looking for a quiet, discreet spot to pitch a tent, what kind of spot along here would I choose? Remember to have a glance up the small gravel roads ... you might find the perfect spot 100 metres up a side road that doesn't appear to have a lot of traffic. Just don't consider trespassing.

As you do this exercise, ask yourself what sort of chance you might have of finding a suitable spot to camp in your area or the areas you travel. In my area, the chances would be really high.

• camping for free in backyards (or possibly staying at people's houses) with permission, of course (such as in the situation Burton mentions above ... in Canada one might frequent a Timmy's, in Australia one might frequent the local pub in order to find such accommodation).

Your chances of something like this being successful will likely be considerably lower. In all my travelling, a chance encounter that provided me with accommodation for the night only happened once. For me, that's less than 1%. But it has happened.

As mentioned in my first post ... you'll probably discover that your results vary in different parts of the world.


And Burton ... Australia (and particularly the part of Australia where Rowan and I live) is a beautiful part of the world to cycle and travel.

Burton

Yeah - I guess you're right. Since its not in the Wikipedia we should just ignore all this other stuff. I mean why not! In 2003 a teenaged girl was bitten on the arm by a coyote on the same trail 19-year-old Taylor Mitchell was subsequenty attacked and mauled to death on in 2009 and that was ignored. Can't be important unless someone dies!
CBC News Posted: Feb 28, 2011 A man was attacked by an aggressive coyote on a farm in Milford Station, Hants Co., on Saturday.

CBC News Posted: Jan 21, 2011 An aggressive coyote attacked a meter reader with Nova Scotia Power Friday morning in the Spryfield area of Halifax.

CBC News Posted: Monday, August 9, 2010A teenaged girl was attacked by a coyote while sleeping at a campground in Nova Scotia's Cape Breton Highlands National Park early Monday, Parks Canada says

Private forum post: 30 April 2011
Our area has been a case for a special trapper for a few years now. Like I said last Dec I had two grn guys here in my yard asking questions. They were well aware of the pack of coyotes we had in this small area. If you count the lady's dog that was feeding them going missing, that is 3 dogs in a 1/4 mile radius gone missing in the past 5 weeks.

JANUARY 10, 2012 - 4:35AM: THE CANADIAN PRESSParks Canada plans to pay an American biologist $100,000 to come up with a plan to reduce encounters between people and coyotes in Cape Breton Highlands National Park.

The proposed contract announced Monday comes more than two years after a young Toronto woman was mauled to death by coyotes while hiking alone in the park. Taylor Mitchell’s death on Oct. 28, 2009, marked the first recorded fatal coyote attack in Nova Scotia, and only the second in North America

The maulings were among several coyote attacks across Nova Scotia that prompted the province to offer a $20 bounty for coyote pelts. About 2,600 of the province’s 8,000 coyotes were trapped last season for the bounty

The Sault Star: 332 days ago
Another dog gone in Batchawana

William Chapman was forced to deliver devastating news to his nine-year-old daughter, Josie, Sunday morning.

Her pet dog, a gift from her grandparents, was dead, devoured overnight by what Chapman believes was a pack of wolves.

The Inverness Ora

Coyote attacks continue to occur across Nova Scotia and Eastern Canada.

(Excerpt from that article): 17:30 RMPSS Barrett contacted by *****; guide with Freewheeling Adventures bicycle tours reported the following events: Around 11:00 a.m. a coyote ran out of the ditch beside the Cabot Trail about 200 m south of the Bog Exhibit, ran across the highway and harassed a female cyclist, *****, who was at the tail end of a group of cyclists in that area at the time. The coyote was aggressive. ***** got off her bike, used it as a shield against the coyote, and screamed for her husband. A passing truck stopped and picked her up and her bike and drove her to the Bog Exhibit. The coyote ran off into the woods. Later, at MacIntosh Brook Campground, ***** was there when the same truck arrived with another member, *****, of the cycling group who was also approached in an aggressive manner by a coyote at the same place. That occurred at about 11:30, a half hour after the first encounter


On the other hand, if anyone was interested in stealth camping in areas like that - I personally think they should be warned. There are Indian reservations close to many parks in Canada and what many native people keeps as pets could technically be better classified as domesticated wolves and have been interbreeding with local coyotes for years. If you want to argue about the details and pretend there's no problem suggest you spend a month in a tent in the woods in any of those areas in question.

I personally stayed at the site where the teenager was mauled while sleeping in a campground in Inverness and it's a very commercial campground close to commercial and residential areas. Lucky for her there were other people around and that she was able to get immediate medical attention. Stealth camping in a secluded area and she would have ended up like what's found left over from those missing dogs after a pack has finished feeding.

indyfabz

I hope no one would be waiting to use the sink.

Ekdog

So, all of that Googling and all you can come up with are two deaths?

It turns out that you're much more likely to be struck by lightning than killed by a coyote, as each year up to ten people die that way in Canada.

Do you recommend taking along a lighting rod?

gpsblake

Ray, I think those are good odds for the game... Because realistically, the odds you'll be disturbed while camping are very low, the odds an animal will steal your food are very low (but much higher if you camp in established areas, critters know this). The biggest danger is probably mosquitoes and ticks, not coyotes and racoons.

surfrider

Not done on a bike tour, but this might work if you're looking for 'options'; try a cemetary/graveyard. In the late 1980s I was trying to drive home to So. California from a monutain climbing vacation in Washington (state). I was still 5 hours from home, dead tired, and couldn't find a hotel room. Finally drove by a cemetary and 'BINGO!'. I drove to a nearby housing development, parked the car, took my sleeping bag and a few other things over to the cemetary and got some real good sleep that night (my 'campground neighbors' were really, really quiet!). Got up at dawn and drove home nice and refreshed. Just an option . . .

hilltowner

No stealth camping in TOWNS? Am I the only one who sleeps in cemeteries?

Oops. I just read the previous reply. So make that two of us.

MassiveD

"No stealth camping in towns."

This is actually one of the best places. A lot of bicycle routes follow roads that are heavily populated, or have farm land. There may be wilderness a few miles away, but the nice roads are there to serve human needs. People do not like you setting up on their property without asking, while towns have all kinds of place that do not belong to anyone in the area. Ravines, abandoned lots, parks. Few people actually think of camping in such places. Certainly during the week there are unlikely to be parties, etc...


"There is a 50/50 chance of finding a suitable spot to camp whenever someone opts to stealth camp."

It's 100% anywhere.

"If someone finds a spot:

60% - gets a good night's sleep
30% - gets a bad night's sleep, which reduces the number of miles they can ride the next day."

I think that can be the case wherever you camp, I don't think stealth camping is any worse. Government parks are the worst for me, there is zero at night supervision, and there is always someone who stays up all night talking, or playing drums, or getting drunk.


"10% - they get "rousted" forcing them to spend the night in a (nearby) motel for $40+ and invokes a point penalty."

That is pretty much zero percent. Remember there are people who camp creatively and never pay. But stealth camping involves the element of stealth. Unless you are really stupid nobody will know you are there, or even care to consider the possibility.

"Independent of the above odds, there is a 10% chance that an animal gets any food they are carrying on their bike."

Again, near zero. Campsites have animals that are used to handouts. Stealth camping, the animals have no routine that involves depending on cyclist, for the most part. One of my main points when stealthing is to think counter to what I think a person would do. If one is on a well traveled route, there are a series of obvious things that happen over and over. People will be looking for stealth cites in similar places. They may prefer to walk downhill, or towards water, whatever. Do the opposite. So even on well traveled routes you should avoid socialized animals.

degan

I stealth camped probably 75% of the time when I rode from Oregon to Connecticut. I never had any problems doing so. Once and a while I would camp in a city park or something, and thats where I had the most problems. Sprinklers, early morning dog walkers (I literally had a dog jump into the tent with me) and general town activities made it more difficult.

If you're out in the middle of nowhere and can get some place that isn't visible from the road, there is almost no chance of ever being bothered by anyone or anything.

fietsbob

Probabilities is a mathematical question, right?

raybo

Yes