4Rings6Stars

I've read some conflicting information on the internet (shocking, isn't it?) and I just want to see if anybody here knows definitively.

I have 8s Sachs New Success Ergos and long cage RD on my IF. I was told initially that they are the same as first generation Campagnolo Ergo not only in appearance but also cable pull, ratio...etc. I did a little searching and saw some people say they are the same as Shimano. I then was told that the cable pull was similar to Shimano and would likely work with Shimano but was actually different than both Campy and Shimano...

I'm currently running them with the New Succes RD and an 8s Shimano cassette and they work pretty well (not nearly as crisp as my 10s Campy but I think as well as I remember 8s STI Shimano working).

I would be excited to hear that they are the same as / meant to work with Shimano. That would mean I could use them with a 34t Shimano 8s cassette and 9s Deore XT RD, correct?

RobbieTunes

They are Campy-spaced, from what I know, but 8-sp Campy and 8-sp Shimano are very close and tend to work together.
I've run a Campy 8-sp rear wheel with 8-sp Shimano STI, no problems.
I've run a Shimano 8-sp rear wheel with 8-sp Campy Ergo, no problems.
Not fluid and automatically perfect, but no problems.

fietsbob

They Intend for you to only buy stuff from their company , exclusively, of course..

Harlan

Yeah I always figured they were a Campy clone since the RD and ergos look the same.

4Rings6Stars

Still not sold... I searched more today and saw lots of conflicting claims.

Somebody have something conclusive and not just anecdotal?

GrayJay

Sachs had a lengthy history of manufacturing deraillers. I am pretty sure they actually manufactured the ARIS NEW SUCESS rear derailleur that was intended to go with the re-branded Campy ergo shifters, the RD was not just a rebranded campy derailler.

https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...6b822&Enum=108

Not too hard to mount the RD, a cable and ergo shifters onto a frame and measure the derailleur movement as it shifts over the gears. THen, do the same for an early campy and a shimano RD and see which one it most closely matches.

edit- Disreali Gear cites that the ARIS RD was based on Shimano design.
https://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/...erailleur.html

I do seem to remember hearing that the sachs branded ERGO shifters had a pull ratio that was different from campy. This list post indicates that the RD is cross-compatible with shimano shifters;
https://search.bikelist.org/beta/View...aspx?id=332615

4Rings6Stars

This is the derailleur I'm using currently, I have one in both long and short/medium cage length.

https://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/...erailleur.html

Like I said, I'm reading lots of "I seem to recall this was designed..." or "I heard somewhere they were designed to work with Shimano(or Campy)" but nothing concrete.


New question: Does anybody know of a bike that was spec'd with 8s New Success in 93 or 94? What cassette was OEM?

Harlan

You might start hunting new success rear hubs and see what splines they have on them.

Also from what I read the ergos were made by campy but were also shimano compatible. So there you go, no answer really.

buldogge

PM Oliver1850 over on Serotta, he knows a bit about the Sachs stuff, has the catalogs too, I believe.

4Rings6Stars

Thanks for the tip, I should have thought to PM Mark as I'm pretty sure I got one of the RD's from him.

JJScaliger

My De Rosa has Sachs New Success 8 speed shifters and rear derailleur running with a Dura ace cassette and chain. Works perfectly. I thought I read (online) that the travel ratio for Sachs shifters was almost exactly the same as Shimano and that the internal round shifter cog was different than same generation Campy.

I am very interested in this compatibility question since I have recently acquired a set of chorus tubular wheels with cassette that I would like to run on this bike with the Sachs shifters; if the shifting is precise. I was assuming I would have to buy an 8 speed Campy ergo.

dddd

The Sachs New Success derailer has "Shimano" geometry and is Shimano compatible. I've these with Shimano SIS systems and there was no difficulty getting it well adjusted.

The Sachs 8-speed system may have been intended for Campagnolo's 8-speed cassette spacing however, which is about .2mm wider between each cog but is a small yet noticeable difference. In that case, the Sachs shifters could not be said to be completely Shimano compatible.

RobbieTunes

I wish I knew the answer to this, there's a bike with that 8-sp group on it here for $350.

mudboy

For a while I ran New Success 8s ergo's, a Sachs Quartz RD, and a 12-28 XTR cassette. It worked well.

Pete

dddd

That makes sense since the total deviation from the centerline of a Campag/Sachs Cassette/Freewheel would be only .5mm when using a Shimano cassette.
Some would notice the difference though in terms of how each shift felt and how far and for how long one might have to push/hold the lever. A subtle difference, but it's there.

GrayJay

The ARIS/new sucess grouppo originally came paired with sachs threaded freewheel hubs and a sachs/malliard 8-speed FW. I am not sure at what point they introduced a casette hub to the grouppo but it definitly took a few years (and many broken axels) to happen.

dddd

One of the things about integrated shifters is the much-increased need for some sort of Hyperglide-type sprockets, lest the rider get thrown off course while shifting under power while out of the saddle.
I'm sure that the parts-spec guys got a more-modern cassette lined up for when the Ergo version apeared around 1991, and that that's what it took to motivate them to give up on freewheels and their fragile axles.

tztag

I just sold a whole group on Ebay- here is what I posted with it. The New Success Ergos I had coupled with the New Success RD threw exactly 5mm per click, so the same as Campy 8 or Shimano 7. Net, there were probably a few ratios used in the Sachs ergos, you may have to measure the cable pull on your specific set to really know.

>There were a few different shifter/derailleur/cassette ratios with the Campy/Sachs gear. This combination of shifters and rear derailleur throws 5mm for each click. Any cassette or freewheel with 5 mm spacing from cog to cog will work. This means that you can run either a Campagnolo 8-speed cassette, or if you are installing on a 126mm frame you could use a Shimano 7-speed cassette and the limit screw on the derailleur would lock out the 8th position. The crankset is similar to Campy Athena/Chorus, but the tapers are JIS, not Campy/ISO. I know this may be hard to believe since they are Campy cranks, but I have had 2 other New Success cranksets (one was new old stock) and all measure identically.

dddd

"I know this may be hard to believe since they are Campy cranks, but I have had 2 other New Success cranksets (one was new old stock) and all measure identically"

True, and I found out the hard way when I installed one of these cranks on a Stronlight spindle and the arm literally bottomed out against the bb cup.
I had to machine down both the arm and the end of the spindle!!!

eerriicc

https://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/...98_20klein.pdf

Check out the Navigator at the end of the catalog - Sachs Ergopower levers and Shimano XT derailleur.

Henry III

I run a Sachs ergos on my Guerciotti CX bike with M950 XTR derailleurs front and rear and a 8 Spd XTR cassette. I think it shifts the same the two other bikes in my garage with 8spd Campy ergo setups.

4Rings6Stars

My Sachs 8s ergos are for sale if anybody is interested. Have the New Success RD too.

zero85ZEN

Still for sale?

4Rings6Stars

No, sorry. I sold them a few months ago. Replaced with 10s Chorus and couldn't be happier....

Dave Mayer

I can tell you about my direct experiences in working with Sachs New Success shifters and derailleurs. Mine are from the early 90s.

First off, ignore the relatively minor differences between Campy 7 and 8-speed spacing (5.0mm center to center) and Shimano 8-speed spacing (4.8mm). And recognize in the responses above that most folks, (including those who post to this forum right up to the level of shop mechanics) do not understand the deep fundamentals of indexed shifting. Small differences in cog spacing, or the existence or absence of a floating top pulley, or cog profiles is not the issue here. The key issue is differences in the design of the rear derailleurs.

My Sachs New Success shifters (made by Campagnolo) pull exactly the same amount of cable as 8-speed Campagnolo Ergopower shifters. My Sachs New Success rear derailleur (made by Sachs) is completely compatible with off the shelf Campagnolo 8-speed Ergopower shifters shifting over an 8-speed cogset. My Sachs shifters are not index compatible with any Shimano derailleurs - either road or mountain. Yes, I have tried.

The cable pull and the derailleur geometry is simply different/incompatible between Sachs New Success and Shimano. This may have changed by the late 90's. All Sachs would have needed to do was to get Campagnolo to manufacter and install a custom shift disk that had closer indents to pull less cable. This could have allowed Shimano derailleur compatibility. And this is what they may have done - hence the different opinions on the 'Net. But I cannot speak to every version of this system.