mr_bill

What is "significantly faster?" A specific number in MPH please?

Joey?
livedarklions?
Maelochs?
jon c?

-mr. bill

Notso_fastLane

Maybe in New England, you have too much traffic or not enough interstates to get going the speed limit, but in most of the rest of the US, if you're lucky, traffic is only going about 5-8 mph over the posted speed limit.

In AZ, along the interstates and state highways, traffic is usually 10-15 over the posted. I've been going nearly 90 mph (75 posted) and had to stay in the right lane because a significant chunk of traffic is going faster. (I used to regularly hit triple digit speeds on my ~35 mile commute to work on my motorcycle.)

My experience living in the midwest, southeast, and Pacific northwest isn't all that different.

I would be more inclined to ask you where these magic freeways are that most drivers aren't going well over the posted limit?

mr_bill

Not "most drivers." "EVERYONE ELSE is going significantly faster" than the speed limit.
That is 99 44/100% of drivers are going "significantly faster" than the speed limit.
A highway where there is but one schmuck driving the speed limit who is the danger to EVERYONE ELSE.

-mr. bill

I-Like-To-Bike

"Most" people would understand that "everyone else is going significantly faster than the speed limit" in the context of this thread topic, means motorists driving in the vicinity of the schmuck who are likely to be affected by interaction with the relatively slow outlier's behavior.

However there may be a few snarky electronic sharpshooting sniper types who might think it means everywhere on the highway from end to end, or driving in the other direction, or any other highway location/scenario on the highway not likely to have any interaction with slow moving schmuck.

An analogy that might be instructive for a nitpicker is if local officials choose to ignore complaints that state that "everybody" is speeding through the school zone, residential neighborhood, etc., creating a safety problem, because not "everybody" is speeding, so therefore there is no issue to discuss.

livedarklions

At least 10 mph. I know if I'm going 65 mph south on Rt. 3, I will be passed by a significant number of cars, and I'm 10 mph over. Everybody zooms by the loner going the speed limit unless they're caught in the lane behind them.

Seriously, can you a single multi-lane highway in New England where MOST drivers are obeying the speed limit? I can't.

livedarklions

"Everyone else" in this context would indicate that it's the norm, practiced by the vast majority of drivers--obviously it can't mean literally "everyone" because that would include broken down vehicles, slow moving construction vehicles, vehicles in heavy traffic, etc.

I don't agree that a driver going the speed limit on such a road is creating a hazard, btw, I just agree that it is beyond question that roads where driving the speed limit would cause you to stick out like a sore thumb exist because I drive on them quite frequently.

mr_bill

Rollfast

They haven't killed me or you yet.

JoeyBike

Back in the days when the max speed on Interstate highways was 55mph, I had a motorcycle that would do whatever speed i wanted to do. However, the frame-mounted fairing had a top speed (recommended) of 85mph - which I may have attained passing a car on a 2-lane highway now and then but mostly I was content driving 55-60mph on a nice weekend to get to the beaches one hour away. I am telling this story for a reason.

There is a stretch of Interstate 10 between Slidell, LA (Irish Bayou specifically) and New Orleans, LA (Morrison Road Exit specifically) where the speed limit was (and still is) apparently "unlimited". It was posted at 55 back then, and 70 dropping to 60 now as you enter NOLA city limits from Slidell.

Back in the 1980s I was on the motorcycle in the right lane with cars just roaring past me like a LeMons race course. I always wondered how fast those people were driving (my old van was lucky to go 60mph) and having the motorcycle under me I decided to find out. I waited for a big Mercury Marquis to go past and rolled back the throttle behind him. Withing a few seconds I was at the 85 mph limit of my fairing windshield and that particular line of cars was STILL DROPPING ME. At least 90 mph in a 55.

Nowadays, that same stretch of I-10 exists except the limit drops from 70mph to 60mph at the city limits as you head into the city where it remains 60mph all the way through the other side of the burbs (Kenner). Many, but not most motorists are doing 70+ through the 60mph parts. My best guess is 75-80 for the left lane.

So my numbers for "significantly faster" would be 10-15mph over the limit that nobody drives. And there are times when driving exactly the speed limit in the left two lanes of the 60mph section would qualify my as a menace to the flow of lawbreakers and a danger to myself.

mr_bill

The speed limit is 70 mph. Nobody drives the speed limit. You never drive faster than 70 mph. All three of these statements can not be true.

(BTW, how many pedestrians on I-10?)

Zero Target

-mr. bill

Leisesturm

Interesting. Very interesting. On a Portland specific forum that I frequent a main pet peeve is how slow Oregon drivers drive. Especially through the I-5 corridor through Portland. You'd think the average driver is going 45mph. The limit on most freeways in Oregon is 55 and I'd say the majority of drivers are doing 60ish. 65 would be rare. So would be 50mph. Or 45. On cross country trips, that same 65 set on a cruise control will usually suffice. Where are all these 80mph and 90 mph drivers? Most people I know HATE tickets and they drive at speeds guaranteed not to attract State Police attention. Personally, I think cyclists routinely overestimate the speed that drivers actually achieve and drivers routinely underestimate the speeds that drivers around them achieve. Usually by very generous margins.

JoeyBike

One thing you missed Mr. Bill. If I drive EXACTLY the speed limit 100% of the time, how would I know who else is driving EXACTLY the speed limit? We would all be going EXACTLY the same speed, therefore, we would never encounter each other. There could be thousands of others driving exactly the speed limit and how would I ever know?

So...to rephrase: I drive the speed limit UNLESS i feel i am a menace by doing so. Rarely, as I stated, I drive with the flow of traffic no matter how fast until traffic breaks up and calms to a point where I can get in the far right lane and set my cruise at 69mph. At 69mph I almost never have to touch my brakes or disengage my cruise control, which is how I like it and this is perfectly legal. (although perhaps not perfectly safe in every situation). I don't blindly follow the rules as you may have heard.

Thank you for your interest in my driving habits.

CrankyOne

I'm not sure that speeding on motorways has much to do with the rise in pedestrian and bicycle injuries and deaths.

I'm also not sure that speeding on motorways has much impact on injuries and deaths of people in cars on motorways. Granted, U.S. motorways are much more dangerous than the autobahn in Germany, Austria and Switzerland and the Autostrada in Italy and likely any motorway in Europe but per mile driven I think U.S. motorways are still considerably safer than U.S. surface streets.

Maelochs

I have the same understanding.

Cyclists and pedestrians certainly aren't dying on highways in large numbers .... and would only be there illegally in 99 percent of cases ... and most traffic deaths are probably drunks coming home from local bars and hitting sober motorists, or careless or angry or distracted people ignoring or trying to run lights, squeeze through small holes, making unplanned, unsignalled,turns, and just driving stupidly on surface streets. Nowadays it takes a T-bone, a bad head-on, or a lot of speed to get killed in a car.

mr_bill

First, I almost never see pedestrians on limited access highways. As in, I can't remember the last time I saw someone walking on a limited access highway.

Second, no matter the many breathless claims by some that EVERYONE (or the equally untrue wishy washy NEARLY EVERYONE) significantly exceeds the posted speed, I guess that is simply not true.

I would conjecture that the majority of people travelling on limited access highways and motorways are within 5 mph (10 kph) of the posted speed. I typically encounter A MINORITY of people travelling on limited access highways and motorways at 15 mph (25 kph) or higher over the posted speed. I believe that THEY are the problem, not the many people driving within 5mph (10kph) of the posted speed. However, while driving on a limited access highway it seems to me that this minority of drivers might be putting themselves and other people in motor vehicles at increased risk. Since I rarely see pedestrians on limited access highways and motorways, it seems obvious to me that such motorists are exceedingly unlikely to harm pedestrians while driving on limited access highways and motorways. (Although I think there is a non-zero possibility that they could.) Duh!

In recent times, the various move over/slow down laws and construction zone laws are probably a rational attempt to address the clearly apparent to me real dangers faced by people who are outside of motor vehicles on a limited access highway and motorway.

However, I'm also not so sure what driving on limited access highways and motorways has to do with pedestrian deaths. I've pondered, and I've pondered. About the ONLY thing I can think of that has much to do with the rise in pedestrian deaths is that the people who drive like M*******s on the limited access highways and motorways are perhaps more likely to drive like M*******s almost everywhere. (And it is conceivable that they are more likely walk like M*******s if they walk somewhere. And may even be more likely to ride like M*******s if they hop on a bicycle.)

But what do I know. I'm sure it's possible that in the minds of some it's a pedestrian "war zone" out on the limited access highways and motorways.

-mr. bill

I-Like-To-Bike

Who on this thread or anywhere else on BF is making any statements about the negative effect traffic speed on limited access highways has on pedestrians? Who is your pondering response supposed to enlighten besides your own straw man?

base2 

It may seem totally weird, but speeding traffic actually makes traffic worse. In a downtown corridor with lots of on's, off's, merges, lane changes, exit only's, and high traffic density the total through put is restricted. A speed that allows everyone to make their moves & get to where they need to be & still have human drivers feel safe or within their comfort bubble may only be 45 or 55 mph. When traffic from the 'burbs closes in at 65, 75, 85 mph, the traffic at the constriction doesn't have time to clear. Now the build up in cars backs up to beyond the restricted area increasing the traffic density & forcing even lower speeds to be within each drivers comfort zone. Unchecked by speed enforcement upstream gridlock is the result. It happens 2 times a day, every day.

If you want to make city traffic safer...If you want to improve gridlock...place real & significant penalties to violating speed limits in the burbs 10-30 miles out of downtown. The region as a whole would benefit & the downtown highway restriction would see higher total throughput due to a more metered average demand.

It's the same reason fq/codel works for internet traffic. It's the same reason road diets work. It's the same reason the stoplight is on the bottom of the freeway on-ramp. 1 car merging is slow, predictable, 15 cars merging because a stoplight on the overpass turned is disruptive to the whole.

All this applies to limited access highways, of course.

As for surface streets, I don't have the answers. Maybe the rarity of speeding tickets being issued fosters excessive speed behavior. On my route to work I averaged 75 in a 60 for the duration just to keep with the flow, and when I take surface streets, some roads with a 45 posted, I'll do 65 & still get passed. I paced an Acura to 90+ on Monday. I avoid that road & it's clearly marked wide & well swept bike lane.

Police just do not care. Wide safe, roads and larger more powerful vehicles with less sense of speed better handling, shorter stopping distances simply beg drivers for higher & higher rates of travel. Combine that with an ever increasing amount of information, environment complexity, & sineage that must be marshalled, just to keep up...it's a sad mix.

Traffic engineers using red light cameras, school zone cameras, narrower roads, metering throughput...Police enforcing actual penalties for poor decisions... courts & prosecutors holding drivers accountable...Car designers making cars "feel" less safe, more vulnerable, & engineering in a sense of speed... All that would go a long way to changing driver behavior.

But: "Freedom!" or whatever.

CrankyOne

Yep. An automobile life safety engineer told me last year that she's amazed at how many people are still killed inside cars in the U.S. given how much safer they've made them for occupants over the past years.

I-Like-To-Bike

Right, whatever?
Any relevance to bicycling advocacy or bicycling safety?

mr_bill

I think more relevance than speeding on limited access highways has to bicycling advocacy or bicycling safety.


-mr. bill

mr_bill

Safety systems are not magic.

In 2012 in the United States, there were roughly five and a half million motor vehicle crashes, about two million vehicle occupants were injured, and about 22,000 vehicle occupants were killed.

NHTSA periodically estimates vehicle occupant lives saved by safety technology:
In 2012 (the most recent year published), rounding, 50,000 vehicle occupants would have been killed in motor vehicle crashes without safety systems. 22,000 vehicle occupants were killed, so safety technology "saved" about 28,000 lives. So just under half of people who would have been killed absent safety technology were actually killed.

The next update will probably include the effects more recently deployed safety technology such as TPMS systems.

Please stand by for predictable whines about any or all of methods, math, statistics, studies, sources, cites, government agencies, nannies, conflicts of interest, etc....

-mr. bill

base2 

Well, speed kills pedestrians & cyclists. Enforcement & penalties in one area of behaviour tends to change behavior across the entire skill-set required for an activity.

I don't know of many city bus drivers that drive with reckless negligence to or from the bus barn in their personal vehicle. The penalty for negligence in a bus is no more job. It's reasonable to derive the conclusion that their driving habits changed for all driving.

I was an un-skilled arrogant scoff-law until I got my CDL with a variety of endorsements. A ticket now, means loss of income & opportunity. I make a game of picking apart amateur mistakes by Joe Public & have for the last 15 years.

Maybe I'm on to something, maybe not. In either case, slowing traffic gives more time to smell the roses, so to speak. Read that as: "More time to look for cyclists & less severe consequences to the cyclist/pedestrian when an error of judgement does happen."

Chris0516

They can't cut through the town I live in, anymore. Without running over a number of speed bumps they town had installed.

I don't where the switch takes place. But I know that 75 goes north from Atlanta, through Athens, and beyond.

CrankyOne

Similarly, if our roads were designed to the same safety standards as most European countries we'd have less than 1/3 of those fatalities so rather than 28,000 it'd be about 8,000 so 20,000 lives saved.

If U.S. traffic engineers designed our roads as well as engineers in Europe then of the 38,000 people killed last year about 29,000 would still be alive today. Of the 378,000 people killed over the past 10 years, about 276,000 would still be alive today.

Or put another way, U.S. traffic engineers are responsible for the deaths of 29,000 people last year due to their negligent designs.

Leisesturm

As I understand it, U.S. limited access highways and interstates are designed so that an 85th percentile driver feels comfortable and in control at 80mph. This has been the case for decades. I've driven cross country many times in my younger years but have not owned a car for decades. When I drove my wife and I to Oregon which is our home now, I had not driven any vehicle for over five years. I drove a loaded 16' Penske rental truck from NYC to Portland, OR in five days in about every kind of road and weather condition there is. Safely. European Civil Engineers are assisted by the high social intelligence of European drivers in making their roads so safe!!! Just this week at church a mother was expressing thanks that her son survived an accident that crushed his car so badly that he had to be 'extracted' from it! The other driver "fell asleep". It is really a stretch to blame America's road infrastructure for what is actually a massive failure in inculcating a culture of good judgement, skills improvement, and civility in the roadgoing public.