Left Turn on Red Permitted?
#1
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Left Turn on Red Permitted?
Louisiana allows a left turn on red onto a one way street. Take a look at this intersection. Would a rider be allowed by law to take a left on red onto Veterans at the red light where the two red vehicles are stopped? Veterans is a two way street, but at that location the lanes only flow one way, so the rider wouldn't have to cross a lane of traffic to turn onto Vets.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Veterans+Blvd,+Louisiana/@30.002946,-90.1507824,124m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x8620afa2de514b21:0x1d15631b7fb14e14!8m2!3d30.0056752!4d-90.1972718!16s%2Fg%2F1hhkczphn?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Veterans+Blvd,+Louisiana/@30.002946,-90.1507824,124m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x8620afa2de514b21:0x1d15631b7fb14e14!8m2!3d30.0056752!4d-90.1972718!16s%2Fg%2F1hhkczphn?entry=ttu
#2
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Based on this I would say no:
https://axleaddict.com/safety/Obscur...e-is-no-excuse
Seems like the spirit of that law is more for "downtown" where you're traveling on a one-way street, come to a stop, and make a left onto a one-way street if it's clear.
The REAL reason I posted...I used to deliver pizza in that area, LOL. Did a quick street view, didn't recognize anything....
https://axleaddict.com/safety/Obscur...e-is-no-excuse
Seems like the spirit of that law is more for "downtown" where you're traveling on a one-way street, come to a stop, and make a left onto a one-way street if it's clear.
The REAL reason I posted...I used to deliver pizza in that area, LOL. Did a quick street view, didn't recognize anything....
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You have to provide a link to the actual text of the law that allows it.
https://lawyerdon.com/louisiana-traf...2Dway%20street.
https://wwwsp.dotd.la.gov/Inside_LaDO...ycle_Laws.aspx
Based on the above, yes, it's legal in LA. The basic principle is: if a driver is allowed to do it, a bicyclist is allowed to do it.
https://lawyerdon.com/louisiana-traf...2Dway%20street.
A vehicle may also turn left when facing a solid red light as long as no signs prohibit otherwise; it stops before executing the turn; and, it is turning from a one-way street onto another one-way street. La. R.S. 23:232(3)(c).
In Louisiana, bicycles are vehicles according to the statute that defines vehicles. A person riding a bicycle has all of the rights and duties of the driver of a vehicle as provided in Title 32 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes, except as to those provisions which by their nature can have no application. Source: La. Rev. Stat. Ann. §§32:1(92); 32 §194.
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-26-23 at 04:02 PM.
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Wrong question. U-turn on Red permitted in Louisiana?
Why yes, yes it is.
-mr. bill
Originally Posted by RS 32§232. Traffic-control signals
...
(3) Steady RED indication:
(a) Vehicular traffic facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, or if none, then before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown except as provided in Subparagraph (c) of this Paragraph.
(b) Vehicular traffic facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, or if none, then before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain standing until an indication permitting the movement indicated by such red arrow is shown except as provided in Subparagraph (c) of this Paragraph.
(c) Except when a sign prohibits a turn, vehicular traffic facing any steady red signal may cautiously enter the intersection to turn right, or to turn left from a one-way street into a one-way street, or to U-turn at a signalized U-turn after stopping as required by Subparagraph (a) or Subparagraph (b) of this Paragraph. Such vehicular traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.
(3) Steady RED indication:
(a) Vehicular traffic facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, or if none, then before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown except as provided in Subparagraph (c) of this Paragraph.
(b) Vehicular traffic facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, or if none, then before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain standing until an indication permitting the movement indicated by such red arrow is shown except as provided in Subparagraph (c) of this Paragraph.
(c) Except when a sign prohibits a turn, vehicular traffic facing any steady red signal may cautiously enter the intersection to turn right, or to turn left from a one-way street into a one-way street, or to U-turn at a signalized U-turn after stopping as required by Subparagraph (a) or Subparagraph (b) of this Paragraph. Such vehicular traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 07-26-23 at 05:57 PM.
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That is not a plain square intersection, so there's NO way it's go when you feel like it. Besides I see NO reason to be in the middle of those merge lanes to the left of cars. Those crosswalks are there for YOU. Even then it must be hell to ride between the thru lane and those never ending turn right lanes.
That's the craziest whackadoodle road design ever. LOL. I don't see how it can be anything but a demolition derby in heavy traffic. They have to angle across 3 lanes TWICE?? WTF.
That's the craziest whackadoodle road design ever. LOL. I don't see how it can be anything but a demolition derby in heavy traffic. They have to angle across 3 lanes TWICE?? WTF.
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If a motor vehicle can lawfully make a left on red, then any cyclists, following the rules of the road, can make a left on red.
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Being at a sharp angle instead of 90° to the road you want to get on sort of makes it a pain to look back over your shoulder and assess the traffic conditions. But I'd think a cyclist would have a better view of things than those drivers in the red car.
So what's the beef? I'm assuming you already know the answer as to what the law says and are merely posing a situation and wanting to know what others think about it. The double right turn lanes whether 90° or the reverse of what you show are allowed to turn right after stopping and their traffic clear for entry.
Or perhaps I'm just not understanding the situation you set up.
So what's the beef? I'm assuming you already know the answer as to what the law says and are merely posing a situation and wanting to know what others think about it. The double right turn lanes whether 90° or the reverse of what you show are allowed to turn right after stopping and their traffic clear for entry.
Or perhaps I'm just not understanding the situation you set up.
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My city is starting to allow left turns on "Red" at traditional intersections. How they do this is to change all the Red Arrows to blinking Yellow Arrows at many of the intersections.
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If I understand the question, I'd say no.
Left on red is about a typical crossroad situation.
This is more like a merge, with a traffic signal specifically to regulate flow. Since it's not a left turn, the law wouldn't apply.
Left on red is about a typical crossroad situation.
This is more like a merge, with a traffic signal specifically to regulate flow. Since it's not a left turn, the law wouldn't apply.
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I think someone already mentioned the perfect way to characterize the turn in the OP's picture as not a typical left turn, but rather a U-turn, since these two roads are one way routes.
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I city ride, trails and streets are my element. I see that as a "dead right" intersection. You may be right, but you'll end up dead using that right.
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Looking at the street view I'd say it depends on what lane I'm in the U-turn area. If I'm in the left lane and stick to entering the left lane on Veteran's, AND there is no traffic from Vets that I'd be impeding or be in danger from, then I'd cautiously proceed. As always, head/eyes/ears on a swivel, so to speak. If I was in the right lane of the U-Turn area, then no, I'd have to wait. Or if I'm in the left lane and think I'm going to jump across both lanes on Vets to the far right, no. If there was no other traffic, then I would. It's really about using some intelligence here. Also, I don't know about the Police down there, but where I live they're quite approachable, but I live more in the country. If I have a road rule question and see a patrol car I'll waive and and raise my hand as if to ask a question. Or I've called the Highway Patrol many times asking about road situations.
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I'd be curious to know what a traffic enforcer in that area would state?
Can you forward your question to the city officials?
Can you forward your question to the city officials?
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https://www.bikeforums.net/22965282-post4.html
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(c) Except when a sign prohibits a turn, vehicular traffic facing any steady red signal may cautiously enter the intersection to turn right, or to turn left from a one-way street into a one-way street, or to U-turn at a signalized U-turn after stopping as required by Subparagraph (a) or Subparagraph (b) of this Paragraph. Such vehicular traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.
#17
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What is legal and what is safe are by no means the same. Often I have gone across an intersection and then waited for the light to change to cross rather than being in the left turn lane and trying my luck. Getting a ticket is the least of my worries.
#18
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I still say no. I don't think this is a "uturn" or a "left turn". It is a front facing red light at the end of a very large median that should in itself be considered a street. You're basically going straight, not left, not a uturn. I used to drive in the area and can't remember anyone driving legally going through those red lights.
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A left turn on red is explicitly allowed in LA at these kinds of intersections.
https://www.bikeforums.net/22965282-post4.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/22965282-post4.html
The whole question turns (no pun) whether this is a turn or a light controlling a straight flow into a merge. So, rather than argue the left on red law, let's focus on whether this is a turn or not.
I don't have a problem with disagreement on that point, and am happy to let judges in that jurisdiction decide.
FWIW there is only one possible direction to move at the light, so one may find guidance by wondering why it's there in the first place.
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(c) Except when a sign prohibits a turn, vehicular traffic facing any steady red signal may cautiously enter the intersection to turn right, or to turn left from a one-way street into a one-way street, or to U-turn at a signalized U-turn after stopping as required by Subparagraph (a) or Subparagraph (b) of this Paragraph. Such vehicular traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-28-23 at 04:25 PM.
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#21
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If it was a "signalized u-turn" cars would be stopped at the beginning of the median, not the end. The median should be considered a street. Let's say that curved median was a mile long. When at the end of the median are you still making a left or a u-turn? You're going straight....
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It's a U-turn and there's a signal on it. There's like even a sign:
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.0028...8192?entry=ttu
??? The way that crosses the median is U shaped. You go that way, and you change directions. And there's a sign.
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-28-23 at 04:38 PM.
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As I said, the placement of the light and stop line where the ONLY option is straight implies (to me) that left on red doesn't apply.
But this is easy. We disagree, and both have made our opinions abundantly clear, so there's no point in argueing about it any farther. Folks are free to draw their conclusions with the understanding that those in certain areas may, one day, have to justify their interpretation to a judge.
In any case this is a bike forum, not a auto forum, so the real issue relates to safety and the question of merging across to the right lane after the merge. FWIW, while I believe that it wouldn't be legal, I'd proceed against the red (on a bike) if/ when I thought it safe to do so. But then, I have a very casual attitude about traffic lights.
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Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
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WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#24
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Why? There's no reason not to allow cars to wait in the turn.
It's a U-turn and there's a signal on it. There's like even a sign:
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.0028...8192?entry=ttu
Again, there's a sign.
It's a U-turn and there's a signal on it. There's like even a sign:
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.0028...8192?entry=ttu
Again, there's a sign.
However, I still consider this a front-facing red.
Last edited by bikelif3; 07-28-23 at 04:45 PM.
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The green light indicates that it's "safe" to go (you have the right of way).
The red light means you have to stop and you can go if there is no crossing traffic.
It's no different than a right on red.
The quoted law isn't unclear. That's what I'm basing what I said on.
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-28-23 at 04:47 PM.