Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Disc brakes are now the default on road bikes Ė and no one cares

Notices
Road Cycling ďIt is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.Ē -- Ernest Hemingway

Disc brakes are now the default on road bikes Ė and no one cares

Old 02-24-20, 03:51 PM
  #201  
63rickert
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,464
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 720 Post(s)
Liked 122 Times in 92 Posts
Originally Posted by OldChipper View Post
Agree whole-heartedly with the last point. That said, rim brakes HAVE evolved and improved. Todayís rim bakes are 1000% better than those of 20-30 years ago and even noticeably better than in the 2000ís. There are also direct-mount rim brakes which are a notable improvement. Iíd submit that precisely BECAUSE mediocre rim brakes work just fine is why THEY should prevail. Improperly bled hydraulic discs, ones that get a bubble in the line (come on, how many of us have more than one bike hung upside down in the garage! ), ones where youíve touched the lever with the wheel out (horrors!), ones that you didnít cover with a plastic bag when you cleaned or lubed your bike, or one with even a slightly tweaked rotor, etc. etc. DONíT.
Direct mount brakes have been available at least 90 years. Some recent rim brakes are harder to mess up but they have so many other mechanical problems I'll stick with old ones.

Thanks for agreeing with what was the most important part.
63rickert is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 03:53 PM
  #202  
sloman
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: coastal NC,USA
Posts: 4

Bikes: Three Bianchis,Fuji fixed(sold),assorted others

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
There is really no downside to disc.(except grams) , but I still prefer rim brakes for looks. But I'm an old guy. Now get off my lawn
sloman is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 03:56 PM
  #203  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 743

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Ridley, Factor, Cervelo

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 439 Post(s)
Liked 170 Times in 90 Posts
Originally Posted by Cbare68 View Post
8 pages on rim vs disc... I am sure glad the internet wasnít around when we went from non-indexed to indexed shifters...
There are a lot of old cyclists, and a lot of clouds in the sky ...
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 04:34 PM
  #204  
LeftyS7
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 30

Bikes: Specialized Roll Elite Low Entry

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Brakes

I'm still trying to decide if Center pull or Side pull brakes are better. I'm hoping to enter the 21st Century soon.
LeftyS7 is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 05:09 PM
  #205  
Johnk3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Dripping Springs, TX
Posts: 59

Bikes: Simoncini, Wilier (2), Cinelli Supercorsa, Cicli Barco XCr

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Disc brakes are now the default on road bikes – and no one cares
Pure climbers are winning on disc brake bikes and no one cares, so has the argument been settled?

Last weekend, Nairo Quintana blazed up the notorious 10km climb to Chalet Reynard on Mont Ventoux, to win stage three of the Tour de la Provence and take the overall race lead.

After the stage, chatter across the cycling media was focused almost entirely on the return to form of a rider whose star has waned slightly in recent years. What didn’t warrant a mention, however, was that Quintana rode a bike equipped with disc brakes.

Bike Radar

This raises several issues.
1) Carbon rims need disc brakes to be safe and avoid undue wear.
2) Disc brakes are heavier, require stronger stays and forks because they are not centered, the braking force tends to torque the frame, and it is annoying to change wheels.
3) If you have a hydraulic leak you are toast.
4) Direct mount rim brakes on alloy rims is a newer solution. They are much stronger and effective than the old style brakes. The weight difference between carbon wheels and alloy wheels and the weight of the disk brakes and the heavier stays and forks end up making the carbon wheels of questionable value unless you are a racer.
5) Direct mount rim brakes have an inherent mechanical advantage over disc brakes. The force it takes to stop a rotating force at 3 or 4 inches is many times that of a rim brake at 12 inches from center.
6) Disc brakes are clodish and ugly. There is nothing remotely elegant about them. The frame connections are ugly.
7) Disk brakes and carbon wheels push the cost of a bike up dramatically.

One major problem with direct mount rim brakes is that you can not just put them on any bike. The frame has to have the connections built in to the fork and stays. See the photos below.





Last edited by Johnk3; 02-24-20 at 05:19 PM.
Johnk3 is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 05:14 PM
  #206  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 7,287
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3601 Post(s)
Liked 579 Times in 374 Posts
Originally Posted by Johnk3 View Post
This raises several issues.
1) Carbon rims need disc brakes to be safe and avoid undue wear.
2) Disc brakes are heavier, require stronger stays and forks because they are not centered, the braking force tends to torque the frame, and it is annoying to change wheels.
3) If you have a hydraulic leak you are toast.
4) Direct mount rim brakes on alloy rims is a newer solution. They are much stronger and effective than the old style brakes. The weight difference between carbon wheels and alloy wheels and the weight of the disk brakes and the heavier stays and forks end up making the carbon wheels of questionable value unless you are a racer.
5) Direct mount rim brakes have an inherent mechanical advantage over disc brakes. The force it takes to stop a rotating force at 3 or 4 inches is many times that of a rim brake at 12 inches from center.
6) Disc brakes are clodish and ugly. There is nothing remotely elegant about them. The frame connections are ugly.
7) Disk brakes and carbon wheels push the cost of a bike up dramatically.
thatís a lot of horse**** for one post.
noodle soup is offline  
Likes For noodle soup:
Old 02-24-20, 05:42 PM
  #207  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 7,619

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 97 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1935 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 313 Times in 231 Posts
Originally Posted by LeftyS7 View Post
I'm still trying to decide if Center pull or Side pull brakes are better. I'm hoping to enter the 21st Century soon.
The old Mafac centerpull (and cantilever) brakes are still pretty good. I use RACERs as from brake for my winter/city/rain bikes and they are stoppers. For pads I use the ubiquitous KoolStops and for levers I use Tektro road, To get the same feel I use Weinmann (I believe; they are Schwinn approved) CPs on back. With full length rear housing, they have the same "squish" as the Mafac fronts and far less power so I don't get lockup on very hard stops.
79pmooney is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 06:16 PM
  #208  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 5,451

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2683 Post(s)
Liked 222 Times in 180 Posts
Originally Posted by Notso_fastLane View Post
The climb is fun, but the descent is an absolute hoot!

Is the sheriff still up there that likes to hassle anyone on two wheels (he used to be as bad with bicycles as motorcycles)?
I can only say it was a nice uphill drive when I visited the area on a non-bike trip... but boy that seemed long even in a car :-)
Sy Reene is offline  
Likes For Sy Reene:
Old 02-24-20, 06:37 PM
  #209  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 743

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Ridley, Factor, Cervelo

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 439 Post(s)
Liked 170 Times in 90 Posts
Originally Posted by Johnk3 View Post
Disc brakes are heavier, require stronger stays and forks because they are not centered...
Do these stays and fork look big and heavy to you?
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 06:39 PM
  #210  
Russ Roth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 367

Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Liked 59 Times in 49 Posts
Originally Posted by 63rickert View Post
Dual pivot brakes are at least 90 years old. Original Shimano 600 were ordinary single pivot sidepull. If you think current Ultegra is good enough then you would be happy on most any antediluvian rim caliper were it only properly fitted.
I eagerly await your pictures or links to pictures of a modern style dual pivot that's 90 years old. When shimano 600 came out you are right they used single pivot and you can read what I said that way. What I was actually saying was that when shimano came out with dual pivots the shimano 600 version that I bought were much better then any previous brake. And no, most old rim brakes, no matter how well you set them up were crap, the materials are by modern standards subpar and the means of mounting, quality of the pad rubber, actual engineering, etc were not up to the task of a decent stopping job. To attempt to claim that being happy with the stopping power of a modern ultegra dual pivot would somehow equate to being happy with any previous version of rim brake is absurd and makes your arguments sound ludicrous. quality V-brakes and dual pivots came into existence and stuck around because of their obvious superiority. Just like disc are here to stay.
Russ Roth is offline  
Likes For Russ Roth:
Old 02-24-20, 06:42 PM
  #211  
Johnk3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Dripping Springs, TX
Posts: 59

Bikes: Simoncini, Wilier (2), Cinelli Supercorsa, Cicli Barco XCr

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Do these stays and fork look big and heavy to you?
Stronger and heavier does not necessarily mean larger. But I am a steel guy and believe that one reason for the tour bikes being large diameter carbon is the increase in advertising space for their name.
Johnk3 is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 06:43 PM
  #212  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 7,287
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3601 Post(s)
Liked 579 Times in 374 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
I can only say it was a nice uphill drive when I visited the area on a non-bike trip... but boy that seemed long even in a car :-)
Itís long, but not very steep.

Next time Iíll get one of those behind the saddle bottle holders.
noodle soup is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 06:50 PM
  #213  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 743

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Ridley, Factor, Cervelo

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 439 Post(s)
Liked 170 Times in 90 Posts
Originally Posted by Johnk3 View Post
Stronger and heavier does not necessarily mean larger.
That disc brake frame weighs only 4g more the rim brake version. That's less than a 0.5% difference.
But I am a steel guy and believe that one reason for the tour bikes being large diameter carbon is the increase in advertising space for their name.
Yeah, I'm sure that's why they do it.
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 07:03 PM
  #214  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 20,300
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10420 Post(s)
Liked 1,623 Times in 970 Posts
Originally Posted by Johnk3 View Post
This raises several issues.
1) Carbon rims need disc brakes to be safe and avoid undue wear.
2) Disc brakes are heavier, require stronger stays and forks because they are not centered, the braking force tends to torque the frame, and it is annoying to change wheels.
3) If you have a hydraulic leak you are toast.
4) Direct mount rim brakes on alloy rims is a newer solution. They are much stronger and effective than the old style brakes. The weight difference between carbon wheels and alloy wheels and the weight of the disk brakes and the heavier stays and forks end up making the carbon wheels of questionable value unless you are a racer.
5) Direct mount rim brakes have an inherent mechanical advantage over disc brakes. The force it takes to stop a rotating force at 3 or 4 inches is many times that of a rim brake at 12 inches from center.
6) Disc brakes are clodish and ugly. There is nothing remotely elegant about them. The frame connections are ugly.
7) Disk brakes and carbon wheels push the cost of a bike up dramatically.

One major problem with direct mount rim brakes is that you can not just put them on any bike. The frame has to have the connections built in to the fork and stays. See the photos below.
​​​​​​Have you ever heard of anyone getting a hydraulic leak on a bike? There are a lot of hypothetical things that could go wrong. Metal rims could fail from wear on there brake tracks. I've actually heard if that happening to somebody.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
Old 02-24-20, 07:18 PM
  #215  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 5,451

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2683 Post(s)
Liked 222 Times in 180 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
That disc brake frame weighs only 4g more the rim brake version. That's less than a 0.5% difference.
.
The pessimist in me says that the bike makers are making the rim brake versions heavier than they need to be, just so they can make these kinds of claims. But I'm partially insane.
Sy Reene is offline  
Likes For Sy Reene:
Old 02-24-20, 07:20 PM
  #216  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 7,287
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3601 Post(s)
Liked 579 Times in 374 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
​​​​​​Have you ever heard of anyone getting a hydraulic leak on a bike? There are a lot of hypothetical things that could go wrong. Metal rims could fail from wear on there brake tracks. I've actually heard if that happening to somebody.
Iíve had the end of a brake cable snap off once, but I still stopped safely.

To be totally honest, I had no brakes after that, but it happened on a FG bike.
noodle soup is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 07:21 PM
  #217  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 5,451

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2683 Post(s)
Liked 222 Times in 180 Posts
Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Itís long, but not very steep.

Next time Iíll get one of those behind the saddle bottle holders.
I was most impressed by the fact when I left town (tuscon) it was a nice ~60 degrees... and at the top of Mt Lemmon, the ski lifts were operating
Sy Reene is offline  
Likes For Sy Reene:
Old 02-24-20, 07:21 PM
  #218  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 7,287
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3601 Post(s)
Liked 579 Times in 374 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
The pessimist in me says that the bike makers are making the rim brake versions heavier than they need to be, just so they can make these kinds of claims. But I'm partially insane.
Only partially?
noodle soup is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 07:24 PM
  #219  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 5,451

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2683 Post(s)
Liked 222 Times in 180 Posts
Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Only partially?
It's hard to answer that question because I'm not sure which voice to listen to.
Sy Reene is offline  
Likes For Sy Reene:
Old 02-24-20, 07:29 PM
  #220  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 12,886
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 606 Post(s)
Liked 303 Times in 211 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
​​​​​​Have you ever heard of anyone getting a hydraulic leak on a bike? There are a lot of hypothetical things that could go wrong. Metal rims could fail from wear on there brake tracks. I've actually heard if that happening to somebody.
I was with a guy when his brake track blew off, it sounded like a gunshot. When I used to mtb in snow a lot I would wear through brake tracks regularly.
Have seen other road bike wheels with a failed brake track.
big john is offline  
Likes For big john:
Old 02-24-20, 07:33 PM
  #221  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 12,886
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 606 Post(s)
Liked 303 Times in 211 Posts
I've had 4 bikes with cantilever brakes, still have one sitting in the garage. Cantilever brakes suck, vee-brakes are way better. I have Mavic caliper brakes on my main bike and they are way better than any cantilever brake I've ever used.
big john is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 08:01 PM
  #222  
Johnk3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Dripping Springs, TX
Posts: 59

Bikes: Simoncini, Wilier (2), Cinelli Supercorsa, Cicli Barco XCr

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
​​​​​​Have you ever heard of anyone getting a hydraulic leak on a bike? There are a lot of hypothetical things that could go wrong. Metal rims could fail from wear on there brake tracks. I've actually heard if that happening to somebody.
That is quite true. It is hypothetical. But I worry that now that disc brakes are the norm on almost every level of bike, that inexperienced bike mechanics may change that.

A while back I was talking to my local LBS owner and racer type about a very steep hill that was used for a time trial. I asked how do you get back down? He laughed and said "You sure don't want to try that on a Walmart bike put together by a 15 year old kid."
Johnk3 is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 08:04 PM
  #223  
63rickert
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,464
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 720 Post(s)
Liked 122 Times in 92 Posts
Originally Posted by Russ Roth View Post
I eagerly await your pictures or links to pictures of a modern style dual pivot that's 90 years old. When shimano 600 came out you are right they used single pivot and you can read what I said that way. What I was actually saying was that when shimano came out with dual pivots the shimano 600 version that I bought were much better then any previous brake. And no, most old rim brakes, no matter how well you set them up were crap, the materials are by modern standards subpar and the means of mounting, quality of the pad rubber, actual engineering, etc were not up to the task of a decent stopping job. To attempt to claim that being happy with the stopping power of a modern ultegra dual pivot would somehow equate to being happy with any previous version of rim brake is absurd and makes your arguments sound ludicrous. quality V-brakes and dual pivots came into existence and stuck around because of their obvious superiority. Just like disc are here to stay.
Obviously there is no "modern style" brake that is 90 years old. What kind of question is that? There are two pivot cantis at least from 1929. Two pivots is two pivots. In the "modern style" the arms move inexorably to center and simply crucify the rim. Then rapid rim wear becomes a reason for using discs. Only works well when the rim and frame are more perfect than can reasonably be expected. Needs every part of system in perfect alignment and needs every part to remain in perfect alignment. Bikes aren't like that.

What "better " seems to mean to people who like their "modern" dual pivots is only that less force is needed at the lever. I don't subscribe to the idea that those with no hand strength at all should even be attempting to ride down the mountain. Strength is needed to control every other part of the bike. If you ain't got it you should not be there. Or at least you should ride slow.

Better materials than the forged arms of a Mafac brake? They last forever, do not wear out. Older Weinmanns the same, they just do not wear out. Yes, you can set them up so as to sabotage them and get very poor performance. Failure rate on these archaic dual pivot brakes is essentially zero. Anyone ever see one broken? Millions and millions of calipers made and they all work. Proven track record of these parts is stunning. No one, no one at all is going to be using any current production bike part 60 or 70 years from now. All of it landfill in progress.

On mountain descents where the pavement remains same as it was there is no change in how long it takes to get from peak to valley for 65 years now. If you want to like a brake because it feels good to you, fine, you don't need any more reason than that. That there is a night and day difference in function is rubbish. What the rider does is in every case far more important than what brake is on the bike. Last time there was a change in brakes that made a difference was 1953. Since then the best brakes of the day have all been more than good enough. The rider rides the bike. The kit does not operate the bike.
63rickert is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 08:10 PM
  #224  
Johnk3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Dripping Springs, TX
Posts: 59

Bikes: Simoncini, Wilier (2), Cinelli Supercorsa, Cicli Barco XCr

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
That disc brake frame weighs only 4g more the rim brake version. That's less than a 0.5% difference.

Yeah, I'm sure that's why they do it.
I was being my typical cynical and facetious self. But, only half so. I do think the big bike companies spend a lot of time and effort into what their bikes look like and how prominent their name is displayed. After all, advertising is one of the major reasons a bike company would want their bikes used by a team in the tour.

The frame for a disc bike does not weigh much more than a rim bike frame, but according to road.cc the rotors, fluid, calipers etc. can add up to a pound more than a rim brake bike for the whole disc bike.

Last edited by Johnk3; 02-24-20 at 08:24 PM.
Johnk3 is offline  
Old 02-24-20, 08:23 PM
  #225  
Tom B.
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Disc brakes

No denying that discs have advantages to rim brakes, primarily in the wet...and no wear on your trims. BUT, I have at least 6 pair of different wheels that I like to switch out for different reasons between my different bikes--but you can't do that unless all your wheels are discs. Not to mention more maintenance then good calipers--and more weight too.
Tom B. is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.