Disc brakes are now the default on road bikes and no one cares
#226
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,945
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3948 Post(s)
Liked 7,291 Times
in
2,945 Posts
What "better " seems to mean to people who like their "modern" dual pivots is only that less force is needed at the lever. I don't subscribe to the idea that those with no hand strength at all should even be attempting to ride down the mountain. Strength is needed to control every other part of the bike. If you ain't got it you should not be there. Or at least you should ride slow.
Last time there was a change in brakes that made a difference was 1953.
Likes For tomato coupe:
#227
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,279
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8274 Post(s)
Liked 9,030 Times
in
4,470 Posts
What "better " seems to mean to people who like their "modern" dual pivots is only that less force is needed at the lever. I don't subscribe to the idea that those with no hand strength at all should even be attempting to ride down the mountain. Strength is needed to control every other part of the bike. If you ain't got it you should not be there. Or at least you should ride slow.
Better materials than the forged arms of a Mafac brake? They last forever, do not wear out. Older Weinmanns the same, they just do not wear out. Yes, you can set them up so as to sabotage them and get very poor performance. Failure rate on these archaic dual pivot brakes is essentially zero. Anyone ever see one broken? Millions and millions of calipers made and they all work. Proven track record of these parts is stunning. No one, no one at all is going to be using any current production bike part 60 or 70 years from now. All of it landfill in progress.
Better materials than the forged arms of a Mafac brake? They last forever, do not wear out. Older Weinmanns the same, they just do not wear out. Yes, you can set them up so as to sabotage them and get very poor performance. Failure rate on these archaic dual pivot brakes is essentially zero. Anyone ever see one broken? Millions and millions of calipers made and they all work. Proven track record of these parts is stunning. No one, no one at all is going to be using any current production bike part 60 or 70 years from now. All of it landfill in progress.
Some people like having new stuff, bikes, cars, whatever.
As to your argument about hand strength, I know people who have had injuries or surgeries and don't have lots of hand strength. I've also ridden with 2 amputees who ride with one arm. I have hands that are pretty big and strong and there are times when they get tired and ache from long braking efforts. I've done a century in the mountains during a rainstorm when my hands felt like they might give up. Discs would have been great that day.
Likes For big john:
#228
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 2,799
Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Liked 1,022 Times
in
722 Posts
Obviously there is no "modern style" brake that is 90 years old. What kind of question is that? There are two pivot cantis at least from 1929. Two pivots is two pivots. In the "modern style" the arms move inexorably to center and simply crucify the rim. Then rapid rim wear becomes a reason for using discs. Only works well when the rim and frame are more perfect than can reasonably be expected. Needs every part of system in perfect alignment and needs every part to remain in perfect alignment. Bikes aren't like that.
What "better " seems to mean to people who like their "modern" dual pivots is only that less force is needed at the lever. I don't subscribe to the idea that those with no hand strength at all should even be attempting to ride down the mountain. Strength is needed to control every other part of the bike. If you ain't got it you should not be there. Or at least you should ride slow.
Better materials than the forged arms of a Mafac brake? They last forever, do not wear out. Older Weinmanns the same, they just do not wear out. Yes, you can set them up so as to sabotage them and get very poor performance. Failure rate on these archaic dual pivot brakes is essentially zero. Anyone ever see one broken? Millions and millions of calipers made and they all work. Proven track record of these parts is stunning. No one, no one at all is going to be using any current production bike part 60 or 70 years from now. All of it landfill in progress.
On mountain descents where the pavement remains same as it was there is no change in how long it takes to get from peak to valley for 65 years now. If you want to like a brake because it feels good to you, fine, you don't need any more reason than that. That there is a night and day difference in function is rubbish. What the rider does is in every case far more important than what brake is on the bike. Last time there was a change in brakes that made a difference was 1953. Since then the best brakes of the day have all been more than good enough. The rider rides the bike. The kit does not operate the bike.
Likes For Russ Roth:
#229
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,922
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,882 Times
in
998 Posts
No denying that discs have advantages to rim brakes, primarily in the wet...and no wear on your trims. BUT, I have at least 6 pair of different wheels that I like to switch out for different reasons between my different bikes--but you can't do that unless all your wheels are discs.
Things change, we move on.
#230
Senior Member
Wow, I'd never trust a Mafac or Weinmann brake these days, not when my Campy Chorus rim brake on my road bike or XT on my commuter will stop so much faster with a lot less pressure. You know what, I've lost strength in my hands over the years and don't want to be holding on for dear life to the levers going down a hill. My XT brakes need one finger, although I usually use two and stop in NYC traffic when needed.
But what I was going to say is that I rented a Roubaix when I was in San Fran a few months ago and it had disc brakes and I wouldn't want anything else in SF with those hills. It just felt secure to ride with them. It was my first and only time with discs, and between that and the shock stem I started looking at them as my next bike, that was until my wife reminded my I have 8 bikes at the moment.
But what I was going to say is that I rented a Roubaix when I was in San Fran a few months ago and it had disc brakes and I wouldn't want anything else in SF with those hills. It just felt secure to ride with them. It was my first and only time with discs, and between that and the shock stem I started looking at them as my next bike, that was until my wife reminded my I have 8 bikes at the moment.
Likes For zacster:
#231
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
Somebody posted an example in this thread of a race bike that's 200 grams heavier with disc brakes. I think it was Scott Foil?
#233
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 2,799
Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Liked 1,022 Times
in
722 Posts
Wow, I'd never trust a Mafac or Weinmann brake these days, not when my Campy Chorus rim brake on my road bike or XT on my commuter will stop so much faster with a lot less pressure. You know what, I've lost strength in my hands over the years and don't want to be holding on for dear life to the levers going down a hill. My XT brakes need one finger, although I usually use two and stop in NYC traffic when needed.
But what I was going to say is that I rented a Roubaix when I was in San Fran a few months ago and it had disc brakes and I wouldn't want anything else in SF with those hills. It just felt secure to ride with them. It was my first and only time with discs, and between that and the shock stem I started looking at them as my next bike, that was until my wife reminded my I have 8 bikes at the moment.
But what I was going to say is that I rented a Roubaix when I was in San Fran a few months ago and it had disc brakes and I wouldn't want anything else in SF with those hills. It just felt secure to ride with them. It was my first and only time with discs, and between that and the shock stem I started looking at them as my next bike, that was until my wife reminded my I have 8 bikes at the moment.
#234
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,902
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4802 Post(s)
Liked 3,923 Times
in
2,552 Posts
If my guess is true, now you can buy rim braked bikes with the weight and (reduced) comfort of a disc bike. Lose-lose. "You can have your rim brakes but cannot have the advantages."
Ben
#235
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,945
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3948 Post(s)
Liked 7,291 Times
in
2,945 Posts
#236
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,945
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3948 Post(s)
Liked 7,291 Times
in
2,945 Posts
Part of it is that they almost certainly use the same fork and frame minus the caliper mounts, built for discs and just overbuilt for rim brakes. That way they can just shuttle off a few standard frames to get rim brakes before the mounts are put on. (I wonder if this is part of why reducing road vibration is such a big concern now. The forks we used to use are neither stiff enough or strong enough for disc brake use. Stiffer means more road shock. I had my Mooney built with a fork that was stiff enough to be a good touring fork. Never liked the ride and it was too stiff to handle well on bumpy descents. Had a second fork built of smaller diameter tubing. Made a real difference in handling and comfort (with old school not very wide sewups). Sweet ride after the switch but totally unsuitable for discs.
If my guess is true, now you can buy rim braked bikes with the weight and (reduced) comfort of a disc bike. Lose-lose. "You can have your rim brakes but cannot have the advantages."
If my guess is true, now you can buy rim braked bikes with the weight and (reduced) comfort of a disc bike. Lose-lose. "You can have your rim brakes but cannot have the advantages."
"The disc version of the Svelte fork largely follows the shape and size of the rim brake fork, but with a slightly asymmetric design and specific layup to withstand the disc braking forces."
#237
Senior Member
No, but the closing between rim and disc models of a bike has seemingly been driven in part by rim-brake models getting heavier.
For example, a 2020 Emonda ALR 5 disc is less than half a pound heavier than the 2020 Emonda ALR 5 rim, but the 2020 Emonda ALR 5 rim is nearly a pound heavier than my Emonda ALR 5 from 2015. And that's not because the Emonda ALR 5 has been getting cheaper: its pricing has nearly tracked inflation over the last several years, while it's gradually increased in weight. There have just been subtle downgrades: for instance, the 2015 rim version and the 2020 disc version both have carbon steering tubes, while the 2020 rim-brake version was sneakily swapped to an aluminum steering tube.
Here's another random fun tidbit: if I went down to the R&E shop in Seattle tomorrow, I could buy an off-the-peg steel-framed road bike that clocks in at over 200g lighter than the lightest disc-brake carbon road bike that Trek currently offers, and for a slightly lower cost.
It's actually a sensible marketing maneuver. When rim brakes first started getting phased out, the manufacturers told everyone that the brake types would coexist just fine. It was fairly obvious even at the time that this was nonsense (there's no way that they ever intended to eat the cost of a bunch of duplicated SKUs in a contracting road market!!!), but I guess some people believed it. But a rapid phase-out cannot be denied for very long, and when you can no longer deny something, the next step in a good marketing plan is to claim that it doesn't matter even if it's true. By de-prioritizing the quality tier of rim-brake models in line with their phase-out, that opportunity arises naturally: you can just tell people that the rim versions have lost most of their advantage over the disc version.
For example, a 2020 Emonda ALR 5 disc is less than half a pound heavier than the 2020 Emonda ALR 5 rim, but the 2020 Emonda ALR 5 rim is nearly a pound heavier than my Emonda ALR 5 from 2015. And that's not because the Emonda ALR 5 has been getting cheaper: its pricing has nearly tracked inflation over the last several years, while it's gradually increased in weight. There have just been subtle downgrades: for instance, the 2015 rim version and the 2020 disc version both have carbon steering tubes, while the 2020 rim-brake version was sneakily swapped to an aluminum steering tube.
Here's another random fun tidbit: if I went down to the R&E shop in Seattle tomorrow, I could buy an off-the-peg steel-framed road bike that clocks in at over 200g lighter than the lightest disc-brake carbon road bike that Trek currently offers, and for a slightly lower cost.
It's actually a sensible marketing maneuver. When rim brakes first started getting phased out, the manufacturers told everyone that the brake types would coexist just fine. It was fairly obvious even at the time that this was nonsense (there's no way that they ever intended to eat the cost of a bunch of duplicated SKUs in a contracting road market!!!), but I guess some people believed it. But a rapid phase-out cannot be denied for very long, and when you can no longer deny something, the next step in a good marketing plan is to claim that it doesn't matter even if it's true. By de-prioritizing the quality tier of rim-brake models in line with their phase-out, that opportunity arises naturally: you can just tell people that the rim versions have lost most of their advantage over the disc version.
#238
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,321
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 767 Post(s)
Liked 1,898 Times
in
889 Posts
Choices. We have them in abundance. It's a great thing.
If you like hydraulic disc brakes, well, there's the justification. You got 'em.
Definitely some very strange retrogrouchiness going on here. Implying that if one chooses a lighter lever feel then they have no hand strength is illogical. Again, choices.
I run rim brakes. I've got old and new, and like them all. Also have strong enough hands. Mafac racers are actually nearly on par with many modern dual pivots, but the key is to use modern cables, housings, and shoes. This is true for all old brake designs. Consumables = modern is vastly superior.
If I get a disc bike one day, then I do. If not, I don't. I'll grin while a fly back into the valley either way.
If you like hydraulic disc brakes, well, there's the justification. You got 'em.
Definitely some very strange retrogrouchiness going on here. Implying that if one chooses a lighter lever feel then they have no hand strength is illogical. Again, choices.
I run rim brakes. I've got old and new, and like them all. Also have strong enough hands. Mafac racers are actually nearly on par with many modern dual pivots, but the key is to use modern cables, housings, and shoes. This is true for all old brake designs. Consumables = modern is vastly superior.
If I get a disc bike one day, then I do. If not, I don't. I'll grin while a fly back into the valley either way.
Likes For BFisher:
#239
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Quιbec, Canada
Posts: 2,112
Bikes: SL8 Pro, TCR beater
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 986 Post(s)
Liked 584 Times
in
439 Posts
Hydraulic disc brakes/ what can go wrong will go wrong. Also, the concept destroy the "elegant symplicity" of the bicycle made up of simple frame, balanced spoke forces supporting over a hundred pounds on 2 inches of easily collapseble rim, propelled by human effort and stopped by "elegant sympicity" of pulling on the brake cable and squeezing easily replaced super low cost rubber brake pads (available everywhere in drugstores ) on the wheel rim.
If you like to squeeze your expensive CF rims sidewalls with rubber brake pads, that's your choice!
#240
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
No, but the closing between rim and disc models of a bike has seemingly been driven in part by rim-brake models getting heavier.
For example, a 2020 Emonda ALR 5 disc is less than half a pound heavier than the 2020 Emonda ALR 5 rim, but the 2020 Emonda ALR 5 rim is nearly a pound heavier than my Emonda ALR 5 from 2015. And that's not because the Emonda ALR 5 has been getting cheaper: its pricing has nearly tracked inflation over the last several years, while it's gradually increased in weight. There have just been subtle downgrades: for instance, the 2015 rim version and the 2020 disc version both have carbon steering tubes, while the 2020 rim-brake version was sneakily swapped to an aluminum steering tube.
...
By de-prioritizing the quality tier of rim-brake models in line with their phase-out, that opportunity arises naturally: you can just tell people that the rim versions have lost most of their advantage over the disc version.
For example, a 2020 Emonda ALR 5 disc is less than half a pound heavier than the 2020 Emonda ALR 5 rim, but the 2020 Emonda ALR 5 rim is nearly a pound heavier than my Emonda ALR 5 from 2015. And that's not because the Emonda ALR 5 has been getting cheaper: its pricing has nearly tracked inflation over the last several years, while it's gradually increased in weight. There have just been subtle downgrades: for instance, the 2015 rim version and the 2020 disc version both have carbon steering tubes, while the 2020 rim-brake version was sneakily swapped to an aluminum steering tube.
...
By de-prioritizing the quality tier of rim-brake models in line with their phase-out, that opportunity arises naturally: you can just tell people that the rim versions have lost most of their advantage over the disc version.
#241
Senior Member
Here's another random fun tidbit: if I went down to the R&E shop in Seattle tomorrow, I could buy an off-the-peg steel-framed road bike that clocks in at over 200g lighter than the lightest disc-brake carbon road bike that Trek currently offers, and for a slightly lower cost.
I'll be in Seattle in a few weeks and I'll check it out myself! Are they still on University? That's where they were when I lived there in the 1980s.
Well, they're still there for one, and as for their weight claim, they seem pretty certain about it.
Last edited by zacster; 02-25-20 at 07:59 AM.
#242
Senior Member
You refute your own argument and then match it with pure BS. Some antiquated brake with 2 pivots is in no way related to a modern dual pivot 90 years later just because they happen to each have two pivots. An apple and an orange aren't the same thing just because they both happen to be round fruit. Modern calipers also don't require anything to be truly perfect to function perfectly fine. They have adjustments that can compensate for minor errors.
Actually better means not keeping the lever squeezed all the way to the handlebar while the bike and its canti/single pivots/center pull brakes get around to deciding if it feels like stopping because they weren't designed to stop as well as a modern V-brake/dual pivot no matter how well they're set up. Nothing about setup will change the fact that old designs are just that; old, outdated, under engineered designs. Refusing to see that these are new, better, properly working designs is just being ignoring the truth before you.
You realize how many millions of the parts you named already fill the landfills or have been converted to scrap? Sure there's lots still running around but not that many when you consider how many were built during the boom years of the 70s. Plenty have failed, you just choose not to see it.
Riiigght
Actually better means not keeping the lever squeezed all the way to the handlebar while the bike and its canti/single pivots/center pull brakes get around to deciding if it feels like stopping because they weren't designed to stop as well as a modern V-brake/dual pivot no matter how well they're set up. Nothing about setup will change the fact that old designs are just that; old, outdated, under engineered designs. Refusing to see that these are new, better, properly working designs is just being ignoring the truth before you.
You realize how many millions of the parts you named already fill the landfills or have been converted to scrap? Sure there's lots still running around but not that many when you consider how many were built during the boom years of the 70s. Plenty have failed, you just choose not to see it.
Riiigght
Not even going to keep track of who replied to what here --- if your old horrible nasty pre-disc brake levers bottomed out on the handlebar you just told me your brakes were not maintained at all. There was nothing wrong with the brake. There was something wrong with you for being out on the road with a bike that did not work.
The rider makes the bike work. The equipment does not ride the bike.
#243
Member
Disc brakes are just plain ugly. Rim brakes can be just as good or even better in performance, for example, Campagnolo Chorus to Super Record.
#244
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 2,799
Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Liked 1,022 Times
in
722 Posts
Any bicycle built before 2019 is a DEATHTRAP. Attempting to ride any bike more than six months old means you certainly WILL DIE. Crazy people who rode bikes in the distant past of 2018 were CAVEMEN. Don't be like those NEANDERTHALS. Just don't get on the road without a brand new 2020 bicycle. Be sure to replace it at least twice before season is over.
Not even going to keep track of who replied to what here --- if your old horrible nasty pre-disc brake levers bottomed out on the handlebar you just told me your brakes were not maintained at all. There was nothing wrong with the brake. There was something wrong with you for being out on the road with a bike that did not work.
The rider makes the bike work. The equipment does not ride the bike.
Not even going to keep track of who replied to what here --- if your old horrible nasty pre-disc brake levers bottomed out on the handlebar you just told me your brakes were not maintained at all. There was nothing wrong with the brake. There was something wrong with you for being out on the road with a bike that did not work.
The rider makes the bike work. The equipment does not ride the bike.
Likes For noodle soup:
#247
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Layton, UT
Posts: 1,606
Bikes: 2011 Bent TW Elegance 2014 Carbon Strada Velomobile
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 626 Post(s)
Liked 701 Times
in
418 Posts
Hadn't thought of this. My bikes are a ~2010 and 2014 model. I don't notice any issues with the cables/housing in any of the components. Have they changed enough, in your opinion, in this time frame to warrant looking at replacing brake and/or shifter cables?
#248
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,279
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8274 Post(s)
Liked 9,030 Times
in
4,470 Posts
#249
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,922
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,882 Times
in
998 Posts
Many people that say that in magazines and forums, have never even tried them. When properly adjusted, they aren't awful
Last edited by noodle soup; 02-25-20 at 10:58 AM.