Second Trip on the Lynskey
11-19-17, 04:13 PM
#51
Senior Member
Enve has a cross disc fork that looks like the functional equivalent of the Lynskey gravel fork, with the same 395mm axle to crown height, but they use 47mm rake instead of Lynskey's 45mm. Whether that would lower the trail enough to overcome the wheel floppiness I simply don't have the experience to predict, but it would be at least some improvement.
11-19-17, 05:08 PM
#52
Junior Member
Lot of moving parts to this issue. I remember wondering how the stack height on the R260 increased by the 15mm or so from the R250 when the overall measurements from the two frames did not appear to change much if any. I guess adding a fork with 395m A2C would do that. Also, the R265 was a lot taller than the R250. Now the R260 is taller than the R275? Something seems amiss.
If the R260 geometry was not really updated for a fork with a A2C length of 395mm I could see it being an issue. Another thing to consider is for every additional 20mm increase of A2C, the head angle gets 1 degree slacker. So an increase of 27mm would slacken the HA by 1.35 degrees. I think the handling would be great with the Enve road fork (the 43mm one).
If the R260 geometry was not really updated for a fork with a A2C length of 395mm I could see it being an issue. Another thing to consider is for every additional 20mm increase of A2C, the head angle gets 1 degree slacker. So an increase of 27mm would slacken the HA by 1.35 degrees. I think the handling would be great with the Enve road fork (the 43mm one).
Wheel flop is really easy to show on a bike that's not moving at all. Just hold the bike upright by the seat or something. A bike with lots of wheel flop will want to turn the handlebar sharply to one side if you lean the bike just a tiny bit, and if you pay attention, you can actually see the front end drop a little. All bikes with any non-90 degree head tube angle and non-zero trail can do this, but bikes with excessive trail will do this really easily.
I can hold my Trek upright by the seat and lean it from side to side a little without a strong tendency for the wheel to flop over to that side, because the friction of the tire rubbing on the floor or street roughly counteracts the forces trying to flop it over. The R260 will do it very, very easily.
Another way to see it is to see (carefully) how slowly you can ride the bike without hands. At low speeds a bike with excessive trail will be very hard to ride without hands because the wheel naturally wants to flop over towards whichever side it happens to be leaning at any given moment.
As long as you've got your hands on the handlebar and the combination of handlebar width and stem length and such makes for a good stable control this isn't that big of a deal. But it's certainly there, and at lower speeds it can be annoying. I'll do a little more research and put some more miles on the bike to see how I like it, and then decide whether I want to reach out to Lynskey and see what they say. I'm really, really liking the bike so far.
Here's some numbers, though:
Lynskey Pro Road Carbon #5 fork is the one they shipped with the R250. It has an axle to crown length of 368mm.
Lynskey Pro Gr fork is the one they're shipping with the R260. It has an axle to crown length of 395mm. That's 27mm more height for the bottom of the steerer tube to the ground just due to the gravel fork.
The Enve fork that garciawork linked to has an axle to crown height of 370mm, and rake of 43mm, which isn't exactly the same as the Lynskey #5 road fork, but very close. The difference from those two to the Lynskey gravel fork is much greater.
They could have repositioned the head tube slightly (a little higher on the bike) to avoid the taller fork slackening the head tube angle, but I'm betting that they didn't do that. So the R260 will be less stable at slower speeds than the R250 was.
They might just say it's a tradeoff for the massive advantages of being able to run really nice, wide tires on the bike. And so far those advantages are very clear to me: my 32mm Compass tires are massively nicer to ride on than the 25mm and 28mm Conti tires I have on my Trek. The thing is, if they were going to swap forks like this to gain a nicer ride, they really should have tweaked the head tube upwards a little to keep the trail the same. The tradeoff wasn't really necessary, but they did it sort of by default by changing one thing without changing other things to factor it in. That bums me out a little.
I can hold my Trek upright by the seat and lean it from side to side a little without a strong tendency for the wheel to flop over to that side, because the friction of the tire rubbing on the floor or street roughly counteracts the forces trying to flop it over. The R260 will do it very, very easily.
Another way to see it is to see (carefully) how slowly you can ride the bike without hands. At low speeds a bike with excessive trail will be very hard to ride without hands because the wheel naturally wants to flop over towards whichever side it happens to be leaning at any given moment.
As long as you've got your hands on the handlebar and the combination of handlebar width and stem length and such makes for a good stable control this isn't that big of a deal. But it's certainly there, and at lower speeds it can be annoying. I'll do a little more research and put some more miles on the bike to see how I like it, and then decide whether I want to reach out to Lynskey and see what they say. I'm really, really liking the bike so far.
Here's some numbers, though:
Lynskey Pro Road Carbon #5 fork is the one they shipped with the R250. It has an axle to crown length of 368mm.
Lynskey Pro Gr fork is the one they're shipping with the R260. It has an axle to crown length of 395mm. That's 27mm more height for the bottom of the steerer tube to the ground just due to the gravel fork.
The Enve fork that garciawork linked to has an axle to crown height of 370mm, and rake of 43mm, which isn't exactly the same as the Lynskey #5 road fork, but very close. The difference from those two to the Lynskey gravel fork is much greater.
They could have repositioned the head tube slightly (a little higher on the bike) to avoid the taller fork slackening the head tube angle, but I'm betting that they didn't do that. So the R260 will be less stable at slower speeds than the R250 was.
They might just say it's a tradeoff for the massive advantages of being able to run really nice, wide tires on the bike. And so far those advantages are very clear to me: my 32mm Compass tires are massively nicer to ride on than the 25mm and 28mm Conti tires I have on my Trek. The thing is, if they were going to swap forks like this to gain a nicer ride, they really should have tweaked the head tube upwards a little to keep the trail the same. The tradeoff wasn't really necessary, but they did it sort of by default by changing one thing without changing other things to factor it in. That bums me out a little.
11-20-17, 07:10 AM
#53
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FWIW, when I was discussing an R230 with Don when he was there, he basically said that the R230 was designed around the Enve road fork. So, essentially, the previous generations of the bike we are all talking about was dialed geometry-wise around a specific fork. Now, it looks like without a geometry shift, they just stuck on a completely different fork (without noting it in the copy on the website) and hoped it would work. That really is a bummer, I have had a lot of Lynskeys, and I hope for their sake they fix what I see as an issue, as the new specs on the 260 make me REALLY want one, if the geometry is similar to the previous generations, that is.
11-20-17, 07:54 AM
#54
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Lots of theory here but I haven't seen anyone writing that the new R 260 was not a great ride. It is.
11-20-17, 11:28 AM
#55
Senior Member
Gettingold, yeah I was just going to post this. The R260 does have more wheel flop than I'm used to, and I wish they'd compensated for the longer fork when they updated the design for 2018, but I paid close attention to both low speed and high speed stability this morning, and to be honest, the longer trail with its associated increase in flop just doesn't bother me very much at all.
I removed the FSA compact 44cm handlebar that came with the Lynskey yesterday. I moved my 3T Ergonova Pro 46cm (alloy) bar over to the Lynskey last night. The 300mm Di2 cables from the shifters just barely reached the junction box, which I had to move closer to the handlebar. I'll probably order a pair of 350mm cables and replace them. I don't like how close a fit it is, and I don't want there to be tension or sharp angles or anything in the cables. The Ergonova Pro handlebar has flat ovalized tops which are way, way more comfortable than the circular tubing at the tops of the FSA bar. The Ergonova Pro also has around 20mm more reach. I was a little nervous about the extra reach because I'd thought the fit with the FSA bar had been pretty good. It was not a problem at all. In fact I rode the hoods for about 90% of my 32-mile ride this morning, and it was very comfortable. I think the fit is even better now. The 46cm bar is pretty wide, but I quite like it, and I think my shoulders are broad enough that it's appropriate for me.
I put some Fizik gel pads on top of the bar and curving up into the hoods, and taped it down around the edges to hold it in place. I should have left it off, but I also put the gel strips on the bar in the drops. I should have just left it off, since I only very rarely ride in the drops. Wrapped the bars with some new Fizik padded bar tape. It's only the second handlebar wrap I've ever done. I took my time and was slow and deliberate, and I think it came out pretty well. I love how comfortable the ovalized tops are on this bar, and with the Fizik gel pads and Fizik padded bar tape on there it's a supremely comfortable ride when on the tops or the hoods. This bar and wrap is far, far more comfortable than the FSA compact bar with the Lynskey bar tape on as it came from the factory.
But yeah, the R260 has more trail, and is consequently less stable at slower speeds than it probably should be, but actually riding it, although I can feel that difference, it's just not a problem. Especially with this Ergonova Pro handlebar with its fairly long reach, 46cm width, and the 100mm stem I've got on the bike, it's as stable as it needs to be at slow speeds and very stable indeed at high speeds. I don't think I'm going to spend much more time fretting about the geometry and what they should have done with it.
Anyhow, here's a couple pics I took after my ride this morning, showing the new handlebar and red bar tape.
I removed the FSA compact 44cm handlebar that came with the Lynskey yesterday. I moved my 3T Ergonova Pro 46cm (alloy) bar over to the Lynskey last night. The 300mm Di2 cables from the shifters just barely reached the junction box, which I had to move closer to the handlebar. I'll probably order a pair of 350mm cables and replace them. I don't like how close a fit it is, and I don't want there to be tension or sharp angles or anything in the cables. The Ergonova Pro handlebar has flat ovalized tops which are way, way more comfortable than the circular tubing at the tops of the FSA bar. The Ergonova Pro also has around 20mm more reach. I was a little nervous about the extra reach because I'd thought the fit with the FSA bar had been pretty good. It was not a problem at all. In fact I rode the hoods for about 90% of my 32-mile ride this morning, and it was very comfortable. I think the fit is even better now. The 46cm bar is pretty wide, but I quite like it, and I think my shoulders are broad enough that it's appropriate for me.
I put some Fizik gel pads on top of the bar and curving up into the hoods, and taped it down around the edges to hold it in place. I should have left it off, but I also put the gel strips on the bar in the drops. I should have just left it off, since I only very rarely ride in the drops. Wrapped the bars with some new Fizik padded bar tape. It's only the second handlebar wrap I've ever done. I took my time and was slow and deliberate, and I think it came out pretty well. I love how comfortable the ovalized tops are on this bar, and with the Fizik gel pads and Fizik padded bar tape on there it's a supremely comfortable ride when on the tops or the hoods. This bar and wrap is far, far more comfortable than the FSA compact bar with the Lynskey bar tape on as it came from the factory.
But yeah, the R260 has more trail, and is consequently less stable at slower speeds than it probably should be, but actually riding it, although I can feel that difference, it's just not a problem. Especially with this Ergonova Pro handlebar with its fairly long reach, 46cm width, and the 100mm stem I've got on the bike, it's as stable as it needs to be at slow speeds and very stable indeed at high speeds. I don't think I'm going to spend much more time fretting about the geometry and what they should have done with it.
Anyhow, here's a couple pics I took after my ride this morning, showing the new handlebar and red bar tape.
11-20-17, 12:30 PM
#56
Senior Member
I wanted to add, since I notice one of those pics showed it pretty clearly, that the Brooks B17 saddle I've got on the bike is really nice. The old saddle I had on my previous bike (some Selle Italia model that was current back in 2003) would be uncomfortable before my 32-mile ride was through. I'd find myself standing up, moving around, etc. trying to alleviate the discomfort during a ride. The 106-mile century I did using that saddle was murderous on my butt. The Brooks now has around 1300 miles or so on it, so it's probably 95% as broken in as it's ever going to be. I actually bought the Brooks after ordering the Lynskey, but I put it on the old bike while waiting for the Lynskey to show up, so it got thoroughly ridden and broken in by the time the Lynskey arrived. The stock Lynskey saddle only got ridden for maybe 500 meters while setting up the bike the day it arrived. I knew right away that it couldn't hold a candle to the Brooks for comfort, so I did the swap immediately.
On this morning's 32-mile ride I never once thought about my bum or the saddle during the ride. On the 62-mile ride I did on Saturday I thought about the saddle once or twice, but it was remarkably comfortable over that distance even at my super clydesdale weight. This makes me very optimistic about saddle comfort when I do century rides with the Brooks.
On this morning's 32-mile ride I never once thought about my bum or the saddle during the ride. On the 62-mile ride I did on Saturday I thought about the saddle once or twice, but it was remarkably comfortable over that distance even at my super clydesdale weight. This makes me very optimistic about saddle comfort when I do century rides with the Brooks.
11-20-17, 06:26 PM
#57
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Looking good Seth!
Meanwhile, we had a few inches of lake effect snow last night and my thoughts have turned towards getting a fat bike. I'll actually be able to pedal it in about 4 or 5 more weeks!
Meanwhile, we had a few inches of lake effect snow last night and my thoughts have turned towards getting a fat bike. I'll actually be able to pedal it in about 4 or 5 more weeks!
11-20-17, 07:02 PM
#58
Senior Member
I saw your note on this in the other thread. All I can say is my hat's off to you on the attitude. Get back on the horse!
I'm about to go out in the garage and take my rear tire/tube off and see what the hell caused it to develop a slow leak after my ride on Saturday. Filled it up and gambled that it would hold well enough for this morning's ride, and lost; I had to stop and pump air into it three times in 32 miles to keep it inflated enough for safety. It's a latex tube, which I really like, but I've had finicky little BS problems like this with them in the past. I may try tubeless again sooner rather than later.
11-25-17, 06:10 PM
#59
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I am pretty sure a disc bike clearing 32's would be pretty perfect for me, not sure I will ever truly use a full gravel bike so I could get away with a slightly more compact frame since 45mm tires wouldn't be a factor, and this is definitely on my radar.
11-26-17, 01:49 AM
#60
Senior Member
Not trying to knock your bike at all, apologies if it came across that way. I just know that I LOVED the geo of the R230 I had, and the way things shifted with this years version makes me wonder if I would like it as much. But, if it still rides good and you like it, then who cares!
I am pretty sure a disc bike clearing 32's would be pretty perfect for me, not sure I will ever truly use a full gravel bike so I could get away with a slightly more compact frame since 45mm tires wouldn't be a factor, and this is definitely on my radar.
I am pretty sure a disc bike clearing 32's would be pretty perfect for me, not sure I will ever truly use a full gravel bike so I could get away with a slightly more compact frame since 45mm tires wouldn't be a factor, and this is definitely on my radar.
I've never ridden the R230 so I can't compare it, but even though I contributed to the conversation about the R260's trail, and it's true, in actual riding I'm just fine on the R260, and the ride is amazingly smooth and comfortable. I'm really loving it.
11-26-17, 07:51 PM
#61
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Not trying to knock your bike at all, apologies if it came across that way. I just know that I LOVED the geo of the R230 I had, and the way things shifted with this years version makes me wonder if I would like it as much. But, if it still rides good and you like it, then who cares!
I am pretty sure a disc bike clearing 32's would be pretty perfect for me, not sure I will ever truly use a full gravel bike so I could get away with a slightly more compact frame since 45mm tires wouldn't be a factor, and this is definitely on my radar.
I am pretty sure a disc bike clearing 32's would be pretty perfect for me, not sure I will ever truly use a full gravel bike so I could get away with a slightly more compact frame since 45mm tires wouldn't be a factor, and this is definitely on my radar.
06-21-18, 04:24 AM
#63
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As this thread was resurrected, this is a perfect time to show off a recent father's day gift from my family. My wife almost peed her pants when she saw this! It definitely reminded her of me in the ER and she said I had to have it.
06-21-18, 11:13 AM
#64
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Finally brought my R260 home this week, waiting for a dry day to ride it.
06-22-18, 05:48 AM
#65
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She's a beauty! Good luck with it.
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