SurferRosa

Which one is your lbs?

repechage

I have seen this done various ways, I think OK on a high flange hub. I am not liking the radial spokes' path on the imaged wheel.

Drillium Dude 

Bothell Ski & Bike (which is actually located in Kenmore these days). They have a couple older guys wrenching there that appreciate - and know how to look after - the old stuff.

DD

norcalmike

I've been watching a bunch of YouTube videos on wheel building. It's something I've always wanted to try. I end up with mismatched wheels buying bikes a lot and if I switch things around I can make a couple matching sets for zero dollars. I think it would be fun too.

Mad Honk 

DD, Too bad you are so far away from me or I would offer you a four hour course on wheel building that would have you proficient in the art. It is not that bad, but there are some basics involved. If wanted contact me by PM and I can talk you through the process by phone. Smiles, MH

Drillium Dude 

The more I read and talk to people locally, the more it seems the prudent approach would be to leave them be. Well, they still need truing, but not worry about the weaving. This is for my experimentation bike anyway.

DD

Drillium Dude 

Because I intend to use this wheelset on big-climbing days, this gives me concern. While I was thinking to leave well enough alone (since many seem to be saying they will be strong enough as-is), it sounds practical to at least weave the driveside spokes to avoid derailleur rub. The climbs I want to ride this on will require going to the basement reliably.

DD

ironwood

It's too bad that you feel you're too old to learn new tricks, but it is a useful skill, and isn't that complicated. I think a lot of bike boom bikes were thrown together an assembled rapidly. Your wheel may have been partially machine spoked and not inspected, but it definately would be stronger if the spokes were properly woven.

jimmuller 

DD, first an editorial comment. Wheelbuilding is relaxing but not hard! Worth a sipping beer. Or two.

A few technical observations. Jobst Brandt's book describes the spoke and rim behavior of a wheel in use. The spokes are under elongation from tension. At the bottom where the tire contacts the ground the rim flattens from the pressure. This momentarily shortens the spoke and reduces its tension. This reduction and subsequent restoration of tension causes repeated flexion of the elbow at the flange, eventually leading to fatigue failure. That's where most breaks occur, and usually on spokes at the bottom of rotation, not at the top or around the rest of the rim. So anything you can do to distribute the changes in tension, and therefore changes in displacement, away from the elbow is desired. Thinner multi-gauge spokes last longer because they stretch and shrink more along the length of the spoke rather than concentrating the displacement at the elbow.

When a spoke is laced around another it has some lateral displacement in the middle instead of being a straight line from rim to hub. So when the rim deforms upward the tension of other spoke will pull that portion of the spoke sideways and take up some of the displacement. Essentially it helps maintain a more constant tension in the spoke and reduces the flexion at the elbow. It makes the other spoke shorten a little but better to have two spokes flex a little than each flex more one at a time. So in principle it will make the spoke last longer before it breaks from fatigue.

Inotherwords, your wheel should last longer if it is strung right.

If it was mine I'd change them. I'd go around the rim reducing each spoke little by little until they are all pretty soft. Only then would I loosen each by very much at a time. That way it minimize deforming the rim either laterally or radially. Then I could go around the rim and restring each spoke. Re-tightening them is an exercise you'll need to do, so if you do this you might as well restring with better spokes. If that seems too much, then keep the wheel tensioned so you don't have to do the full re-tightening exercise.

Classtime 

DD, it is about time you started tuning/rebuilding your wheels. The bikes that you post are testament to the top shelf handiwork you are capable of. With out the weave, that broken spoke will flop around. But you probably wont break one. I suggest that you put that wheelset on your Casati and use new rims, spokes and nipples on Record hubs to build wheels for your Bianchi. Then you can go back and play with that 4X wheelset.

repechage

If I intend to save the rim and or spokes, 1/2 turn per spoke on ONE side at a time. Until loose, I make sure I segregate drive and non drive side spokes on the rear wheel, the drive side should be 1-2 mm shorter on a rear wheel.
FIRST- check the spoke engagement all around the wheel, note with a sharpie spokes that are long, on the spoke and at the rim.
Reason is to check for weird corrections and or non common length spokes.
I have found enough built in errors over the years, to make me wary. Unless I built the wheel.
I am not against reusing rims. Or spokes, not for "Show" bikes but for "training wheels"
I had one set of wheels built with used rim and spoke in front, used rim and cad spokes for the rear, and They would not die. Finally retired them after 40 years. (there was 10 years worth of total storage in that time frame)
Upon reflection, I should have built with stainless steel spokes in the rear wheel. It was corrosion of the spokes that called the end.
Using new nipples wherever possible. The front were Robergel... not a chance there.

desconhecido 

It's a worthwhile exercise, in my opinion, but if you are replacing spokes (going 4x to 2x or replacing galvanized with ss) you will spend some change. Even if not replacing spokes, good rim strips and replacing nipples won't be free, though not very much with used spokes.

desconhecido 

I just went and checked a wheel from a 74 Sprite -- pretty much the same bike as a Record only with upright bars and fenders, and the spokes are not interlaced. Of course, the spokes on the Sports never were either.

Drillium Dude 

I missed this post, but it answers a lot. One, it does suggest that the wheel is safe and reliable to ride as-is. Two, I was not wrong to be surprised at the lack of lacing; the wheel in question, btw, has early stainless steel barrel/alloy flange Phil Wood hubs and spokes with unmarked heads which are possibly chromed or galvanized - I can't tell what kind of patina it is. Rims are Ambrosio Synthesis Durex Super Professional tubulars. So yeah, the spokes are the only bit that appears somewhat cheap, but they are also hefty and may well have been the answer to the question why they weren't weaved: it was easier, and somewhat cheaper, to do it that way.

I'm going to clean off the old glue myself and have my LBS re-tension both wheels. I took a good look at the wheel in the Casati's rear triangle today during unrelated preparatory maintenance and noticed the dish is out a bit, which makes sense: this wheelset came from the Bianchi which had been off a bit. I'll then tape up the tires and take it for a test ride as soon as I get a dry afternoon.

Kind of in a hurry to try out tubulars again, I guess! But the wheel-building stuff will have to wait just a little while longer, unless the test ride results tell me I need to make changes.

DD

Last ride 76 

There's an easy middle ground fix!

mechanicmatt

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but a magnet would tell you if they are stainless or not.

Last ride 76 

+1 Absolutely 1/2 turn- same side all the way around and then flip, don't get too hasty. once the tension is off go all the way off one after the other.

Kuromori

Only kind of. While 304 or 18/8 usually used in stainless spokes is non-magnetic when annealed, when cold worked it is somewhat magnetic, although not as magnetic as a chrome or galvanized spoke.

USAZorro

Thanks for the very informative explanation of the dynamics. The only thing I see a problematic is the reference to new spokes. I have built enough wheels to know the horrors of trying to lace spokes with their heads on the outside of the hub while the spokes that have their heads on the inside are present. This can quickly lead to scratched rims, frustration, swearing and drinking while trying to make this take place.

If going the route of relacing the wheel with new spokes, I advise reducing the tension to just about zero, removing all the spokes with their heads on the inside of the hub, and then set about to replacing them one at a time.

ThermionicScott 

My English 3-speed didn't have interlaced spokes, and that's a bike that's been ridden since the Beatles appeared on Ed Sullivan. Lots of bikes throughout history were made that way, and I think the merits of interlaced spokes may be overstated by those of us who obsess about best practices.

Helping the rear derailleur cage clear the spokes is one solid argument for doing it on rear wheels. But arguments for wheel strength involve the boundary condition where spokes are momentarily losing ALL their tension. That just shouldn't happen (well, hardly ever) on a wheel with proper tension.

If you do decide to interlace the spokes, I will contradict most of the advice here. I would NOT completely loosen the wheels first. Just do it one spoke at a time -- loosen the crossing spoke completely, lace it through, pull it back up to tension. You'll know it's right when that spot come back into true with the rest of the wheel.

Kuromori

3 speeds have the advantage of not having dish. Derailer equipped bicycles, especially later ones that are less C&V have the unfortunate problem of not having proper tension on the rear NDS except when there's some asymmetry like 2:1 lacing or offset rims to compensate.

79pmooney

I'd de-tension the rim and cross the spokes. De-tensioned enough, the order you do the crosses in won't matter. But ... this is a full wheel build except for the seating of the spokes and thist is a nice wheel. I'd do my learning elsewhere.

Wheel building is a great skill. I"m surprised you haven't mastered it yet. Grab a hub and rim, go to a calculator or trusted bike shop, get the right length spokes and build your first. Do another. (It gets more fun every wheel.) Then take this one on. And you'll find this is much easier than new spokes you have to bend and seat.

Now, you could buy new, lighter, double butted spokes. That wold be a full build. But, you have the lengths you need already done for you, Hub flange holes are seated. Spoke directions are defined. End result would be a really sweet wheel.

Too old to learn - naw! Just do it!

Ben

Drillium Dude 

And this is why I will wait to do my first wheel-build another time. If this wheelset is generally understood to be fine, if a little aesthetically lacking, I would rather leave it alone and just ride it - but not invest in new spokes, nipples, perhaps have to unlace the entire wheel...no.

It sure is funny the way threads seem to go way out into left field in the winter months! All I wanted to know at the outset of this thread was whether or not the wheels were safe to ride without the weave

DD

Mad Honk 

Bump