Ice
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Ice
Brrr...How does ice affect your daily life this winter?
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So far, here in metro NYC, not at all. A refreshing change from last year.
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The frozen water version ground everything to a halt for a day during the winter ... back on August 3rd.
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I use studded tires, ice has never been a problem for me.
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I’m pretty capable of walking (carefully) on ice. When I drive, especially to work, I leave early and my general rule is stay away from other vehicles as far as possible.
For cycling, the possibility of ice on the road completely defines my winter cycling.
BTW, here is IMO, the best thread I have read about black ice:
And, as @PauRivers of Minnesota has knowingly posted:
These statements do seem to reflect my experience with black ice. On my worst black ice day I had to ride about bout five miles after my first fall, sans studded tires, extremely slowly until the sun rose to warm up the road within a few minutes.
For cycling, the possibility of ice on the road completely defines my winter cycling.
In 2013 was the first winter with the CF bike, and over the past two winters, that bike essentially is not ridden from January through March, and I ride the heavy-duty beater bike with studded tires. Last year, I thought about a second lesser quality road bike to ride on dry, but salted roads. My wife nixed the idea of three bikes in the condo…
This morning though as I rode the CF at 39°F, I could be confident that the sheen on the road was wet water, and not black ice. I was reminded about the post by @ tsl Rochester New York, which convinced me to get studded tires in the first place…
I’ll have to keep that in mind to ride a road bike with unstudded tires during the winter. The reason I want a second tier, (but not crappy) road bike is for a nicer ride, without too much remorse about messing it up.[Studded tires are not available for tires less than 30C.]
This morning though as I rode the CF at 39°F, I could be confident that the sheen on the road was wet water, and not black ice. I was reminded about the post by @ tsl Rochester New York, which convinced me to get studded tires in the first place…
30-40F is the black ice sweet spot (keeping in mind most thermometers are a few feet above the ground so measuring warmer temp than the ground itself)
…There are many ways black ice can occur, including vapor deposition (ie. dew) melt/refreeze, etc….
So there's one label that can describe many similar problems. What makes it Black Ice isn't how it forms, but the fact that it's thin and just about invisible, so there's no warning before you're on it.
BTW - you get the most black ice when air temps are near or slightly above freezing, and the pavement is well below freezing.
So there's one label that can describe many similar problems. What makes it Black Ice isn't how it forms, but the fact that it's thin and just about invisible, so there's no warning before you're on it.
BTW - you get the most black ice when air temps are near or slightly above freezing, and the pavement is well below freezing.
I expect that's why we rarely if ever saw black ice in Winnipeg though it's a phenomenon in the East. Prairie air temperatures are too cold -- rarely hovering around freezing -- and the air is too dry. If water vapour freezes in the air it turns directly to ice crystals….Those 32F/0C temperatures lead to treacherous conditions.
I do live in Minnesota, but around a decade ago studded bike tires were either new or not well known. On my last ride of the year a whole group of bike club members tried to convince me I could keep riding in the winter. Having been through this before, I nodded along, then casually asked them if they had ever broken anything while riding in the winter. Almost all of them had - collarbones mostly, various other stuff from slipping on unexpected ice. They all had super dramatic stories that made it sound like it was a big coincidence - how could they have seen the ice? It was so unexpected. But to me, that was the point.
Ice is just scary, and my risk threshold is to low to take risks with it on the bike when studded tires will eliminate it. (Well the risk of sheer ice that you can't see causing a crash).
Ice is just scary, and my risk threshold is to low to take risks with it on the bike when studded tires will eliminate it. (Well the risk of sheer ice that you can't see causing a crash).
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 01-11-16 at 06:51 AM.
#6
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last Monday my son wiped out turning out of the driveway on his way to school. I ran to help him and went flying did a faceplant onto our concrete steps, so finally reached him gushing blood all over my face. He was fine although I wound up driving him to school (wheel in one hand, paper towel in the other, stick shift in the last...).
This morning, not really thinking about it, did a 3 stooges backflip on the backdeck wooden stairs, so slammed directly into my spine above the pelvis. No bones or even skin broken. Crazy. Son made it out of the driveway fine, and I am about to ride to work myself. It is raining so I am counting on that to disperse whatever black ice might remain. I will be going slow though.
This morning, not really thinking about it, did a 3 stooges backflip on the backdeck wooden stairs, so slammed directly into my spine above the pelvis. No bones or even skin broken. Crazy. Son made it out of the driveway fine, and I am about to ride to work myself. It is raining so I am counting on that to disperse whatever black ice might remain. I will be going slow though.
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last Monday my son wiped out turning out of the driveway on his way to school. I ran to help him and went flying did a faceplant onto our concrete steps, so finally reached him gushing blood all over my face. He was fine although I wound up driving him to school (wheel in one hand, paper towel in the other, stick shift in the last...).
This morning, not really thinking about it, did a 3 stooges backflip on the backdeck wooden stairs, so slammed directly into my spine above the pelvis. No bones or even skin broken. Crazy. Son made it out of the driveway fine, and I am about to ride to work myself. It is raining so I am counting on that to disperse whatever black ice might remain. I will be going slow though.
This morning, not really thinking about it, did a 3 stooges backflip on the backdeck wooden stairs, so slammed directly into my spine above the pelvis. No bones or even skin broken. Crazy. Son made it out of the driveway fine, and I am about to ride to work myself. It is raining so I am counting on that to disperse whatever black ice might remain. I will be going slow though.
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 01-11-16 at 10:15 AM.
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Some 40 years ago, I slipped on black ice while walking between two parked cars. I did a classic Charlie Brown fall, bringing my shinbone up into the underside of the license plate bracket. The most intense pain I've ever felt to then and since. Nothing broken, but I still have a dent if the front of my shin.
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I get my studded tire bike ready the night before just in case there is ice in the morning. Ice then becomes easy for me to ride on, but of course that does not help drivers or anyone else. In some cases it is easier to ride with studs than walk without.
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Of course you do become vulnerable to skidding cars. Another reason, IMO to wear a rearview mirror...to view cars skidding behind you, and know your options when cars skid towards you.
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When I was living in the Chicago 'burbs, I got up to go to work one morning, looked out the window:
"Oh, just a little wet on the ground."
I stepped out side, made it about 3'...BAM!!! Flat on my back!
"Oh, just a little wet on the ground."
I stepped out side, made it about 3'...BAM!!! Flat on my back!
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Hope she's OK. Son and I both successfully rode to our destinations today.
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I've gone down twice this winter on my bike (with studded tires.) The studded tires I'm using (45Nrth xerxes) aren't really meant to be ridden on glare ice (which I was riding them on.) Last winter when I used different, better studded tires I didn't go down once (on ice... I hit an unseen curb once...)
I didn't get hurt either time I've fallen this year, in fact I thought it was hilarious how far I slid once I fell.
I didn't get hurt either time I've fallen this year, in fact I thought it was hilarious how far I slid once I fell.
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@Jim from Boston Thanks for the mention, I keep wondering if there should be a general advice thread on ice and riding. Hmm.
That's interesting, you went down on ice using the 45nrth Xerxes? Were they at high pressure (studs off the ground) or low pressure (studs in regular contact with the ground?).
Really curious about real world results on the tires. I know with my Schwalbe Marathon Winters with 4 rows of studs I can ride across an ice skating rink without a problem at low pressure (all 4 rows in contact with the ground), but I've been very curious about the Xerxes.
I've gone down twice this winter on my bike (with studded tires.) The studded tires I'm using (45Nrth xerxes) aren't really meant to be ridden on glare ice (which I was riding them on.) Last winter when I used different, better studded tires I didn't go down once (on ice... I hit an unseen curb once...)
I didn't get hurt either time I've fallen this year, in fact I thought it was hilarious how far I slid once I fell.
I didn't get hurt either time I've fallen this year, in fact I thought it was hilarious how far I slid once I fell.
Really curious about real world results on the tires. I know with my Schwalbe Marathon Winters with 4 rows of studs I can ride across an ice skating rink without a problem at low pressure (all 4 rows in contact with the ground), but I've been very curious about the Xerxes.
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Needless to say, my faith in both 4 wheel drive and studded tires was diminished for life. Not saying they're not good things, just saying not to be over confident in what they can do.
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@Jim from Boston Thanks for the mention, I keep wondering if there should be a general advice thread on ice and riding. Hmm.
That's interesting, you went down on ice using the 45nrth Xerxes? Were they at high pressure (studs off the ground) or low pressure (studs in regular contact with the ground?).
Really curious about real world results on the tires. I know with my Schwalbe Marathon Winters with 4 rows of studs I can ride across an ice skating rink without a problem at low pressure (all 4 rows in contact with the ground), but I've been very curious about the Xerxes.
Really curious about real world results on the tires. I know with my Schwalbe Marathon Winters with 4 rows of studs I can ride across an ice skating rink without a problem at low pressure (all 4 rows in contact with the ground), but I've been very curious about the Xerxes.
This winter I have been engaged with myself in a Great Debate about a second road bike for the winter…
My current resolution is wait until spring, and maybe then buy the second road bike and use that as my warmer weather beater, but keep the Mountain bike as my Winter (only), studded tire beater.
See also preceding post #57 why I don't want to ride the Carbon fiber bike during the winter, FWIW.
My current resolution is wait until spring, and maybe then buy the second road bike and use that as my warmer weather beater, but keep the Mountain bike as my Winter (only), studded tire beater.
See also preceding post #57 why I don't want to ride the Carbon fiber bike during the winter, FWIW.
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Fortunately here, we get more rain than snow/ice.
Since I've gone mostly car-free, I can generally wait out any snow/ice storms that might blow through.
Last year, as so many people were buried under blizzard conditions, I had to do about a 100 mile RT ride to find the snow for the required winter Velo Cheapo photos (a couple of days after the end of the contest, I think). The snow was even sparse at the 5325' pass.
Since I've gone mostly car-free, I can generally wait out any snow/ice storms that might blow through.
Last year, as so many people were buried under blizzard conditions, I had to do about a 100 mile RT ride to find the snow for the required winter Velo Cheapo photos (a couple of days after the end of the contest, I think). The snow was even sparse at the 5325' pass.
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My first introduction to studded tires was nearly 50 years ago. I was riding down an icy road in a friend's Jeep. I commented on the conditions and my friend assured me that with 4 wheel drive and 4 new studded tires we had all the traction we needed. That was just before we slid and down an embankment on a reverse camber section (no turn).
Needless to say, my faith in both 4 wheel drive and studded tires was diminished for life. Not saying they're not good things, just saying not to be over confident in what they can do.
Needless to say, my faith in both 4 wheel drive and studded tires was diminished for life. Not saying they're not good things, just saying not to be over confident in what they can do.
On studded tires there are a lot of factors:
- Are they rubber or metal studs?
- Studs help with ice but not snow - mixed snow ice is still pretty bad
- The weight to stopping power ratio that's required is noteably different with a car vs a bike. The car is much heavier and usually travelling much faster. The car does have 4 tires rather than 2, and those tires are wider - but it's different.
- The kind of person casually going "no big deal I have 4 wheel drive" is...often a bad driver to begin with
I'm mean I'm just speculating - I have not driven a car with studded tires. That's sounds terrifying to go off the road like that.
My personal experience is just on the bike, where I find that a well studded tire (like a Schwalbe Marathon Winter) on sheer ice gives me at least 80% of the grip of dry pavement. But...I'm not doing anything "crazy", and snow/ice mix is still real annoying and not handled nearly as well.
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It wasn't fun, but not so bad either considering what it could have been. We managed to slide down a small embankment without rolling over, so the worst was having to climb out of a badly tilted jeep, and pay a guy with a truck and winch to haul us back onto the road.
In any case, my point wasn't to be a critique of 4-wheel drive, drivers or studs, but simply to remind folks that nothing is bulletproof and studded tires or not, you ave to respect ice.
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Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
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The side streets where I live are pretty much ice, snow, or some combination thereof between the first snows and late March/early April, and the bike lanes become places to store snow. Playtime is over - I'm running Nokian Extremes front and rear throughout the winter.
Ice makes it difficult for me to walk places, so I generally opt to ride rather than walk even short distances throughout the winter. With the studs, I've gone down exactly twice in the last two years; both were while hauling a trailer loaded to about 70 lbs, and both were due to operator error (dragging trailer through ice rut, stopping too fast on ice while loaded.)
That said, I enjoy winter riding - a relatively short ride gives me quite a bit of exercise, as well as a fulfilling sense of challenge and adventure. For the most part, I go about my daily business as usual, keeping in mind that my travel time will increase a bit when compared to the rainy and/or warmer times of year.
Ice makes it difficult for me to walk places, so I generally opt to ride rather than walk even short distances throughout the winter. With the studs, I've gone down exactly twice in the last two years; both were while hauling a trailer loaded to about 70 lbs, and both were due to operator error (dragging trailer through ice rut, stopping too fast on ice while loaded.)
That said, I enjoy winter riding - a relatively short ride gives me quite a bit of exercise, as well as a fulfilling sense of challenge and adventure. For the most part, I go about my daily business as usual, keeping in mind that my travel time will increase a bit when compared to the rainy and/or warmer times of year.
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I just encountered some this morning that almost made me surrender. It was at the top of Cedar Hill Road. A ruptured pipe somewhere under ground meant that a lot of water was covering the road from side to side and 15-20 feet along the road. It being 23 degrees F. Naturally that water was frozen. The kicker is that that part of the road is at least a 13% incline. I stopped the bike half way across the street and very slowly edged my way towards the side of the road, sliding down some times, but eventually succeeding in crossing. Then I continued along side of the road for a ways until the danger was over.
My plan for tomorrow, should I need it. is to do a short-cut through the Baptist church parking lot and hopefully connect with the street farther down.
My plan for tomorrow, should I need it. is to do a short-cut through the Baptist church parking lot and hopefully connect with the street farther down.
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I cringe reading this post, knock on wood. Just about two hours hours ago I got a call from my wife that my daughter slipped on ice, walking with my wife, and they went to the ER because daughter was limping.