big john

Thank God. Imagine more arrogant, impudent, pompous know-it-all retrogrouches like him running around.

tomato coupe

ftfy

Breadfan

This is what I did. I bought some fairly inexpensive shoes and the (clip on one side) Shimano PD-M324 pedals and the SH56 cleats. Some say this kind of cleat releases too easy but it hasn't happened to me yet and it has to be more secure than flats. As long as you are keeping pressure on, your feet will stay clipped. Only thing I don't like about any of them is when you need a split second to put your foot down, you'll be using that split second to unclip until it becomes second nature. I haven't hit the deck yet, but I've had a few close calls. I do like the having the flat side available, it works great in heavy traffic if you are starting and stopping a bunch. I may just keep the one sided pedals for a long time. Best of both worlds except for having to flip the pedal to the side you want. If you are racing, I can see where that may be a problem time wise. I really only decided to use the cleats because I have terrible foot posture and it was hurting my knees. This has helped me keep in perfect alignment and it really cut down on the pain. And it's true, you feel like you are one with the bike.

livedarklions

I have absolutely no dog in this fight because I cannot use any foot retention without setting off very bad chronic pain in an ankle due to a gongenital defect. I'm stuck with platforms no matter what.

It really isn't all that far-fetched that racers are "wrong". My understanding is that the evidence for actual benefit of clipless is so marginal that we can't necessarily sort out whether they all train that way because of the benefit or whether they're just better on clipless because they train that way. As the cliche goes, practice makes perfect. If you don't ride on platforms, there's no reason to assume you'd be particularly good at it when you do objective testing.

I'm a firm believer that people should try things for themselves and see if they work better or worse for them. I have no idea whether OP will be faster, slower, more or less comfortable, but as long as there's no harm in trying, it's going to be a lot more informative than reading a bunch of arguments over what should or shouldn't happen.

One thing I will argue with, however. Usually, someone in these threads will start rattling off a list of things "you can't do" on platforms, which usually consists of items I do regularly on platforms, and/or assertions that platforms are somehow "dangerous". This stuff is so misleading, that I feel a need to correct that. I am convinced, however, that platforms suck for sprinting.

big john

Sure. I have ridden with people on mountain bikes who do fine on flat pedals. Hard climbs, whatever. Would they make more power with clipless? I don't know. It doesn't matter to me.
I've ridden with a few (very few) people who use flat pedals on the road. They are usually not leading any climbs, but it's probably not the pedals. I have also seen people who use flats because of physical reasons, as you have described. I always use clipless for all riding and have since I stopped using clips and straps in the 80s. Do they make me faster? Doesn't matter. I would still use them even if someone could definitively prove they didn't help me make power.

People like to say "studies have shown" or someone says you can't make power on the upstroke. Again, I don't care about that, but with just a little looking I found a study which shows an increase in upstroke power when riders were instructed to pull up. You can find other such info/opinions, whatever.

It's similar to arguing about speed. Like everything every rider does is always about more speed. We've seen it many times. Someone says they are buying something and others say it won't make them faster. Or you can be just as fast on a cheap bike as on an expensive one. Is that what all of us are always doing?

Eric F 

My apologies about my assumption regarding your use of clipless pedals.

You might also note that current pro racer and cycling coach, Dylan Johnson, sums up his video by saying that he does not recommend flat pedals for most serious cyclists and cycling situations, and clipless pedals are not more efficient than flat pedals "when pedaling down a flat road at a moderate pace". I completely agree that under moderate conditions, clipless pedals would not be an advantage. However, many of us ride our bikes hard, and have had enough personal experience to make a determination that clipless pedals are our preference, usually for more reasons than only the ability to apply force around a larger segment of the pedal circle, which is a factor you seem to keep ignoring.

Additionally, current pro racer and cycling coach, Dylan Johnson, uses clipless pedals when he races and trains. If you know anything about Dylan, you would know that he takes advantage of every incremental gain he can. If flat pedals were an advantage, he would be using them.

Again, one of the biggest reasons people bristle at your comments is your insults. Your repeated insistence that people who have made a determination that is contrary to yours are less intelligent, and/or are unable to make a rational decision for themselves, is ignorant and arrogant.

indyfabz

Or maybe the mold broke during the manufacturing process and the best parts leaked onto the floor.

Eric F 

What color anodized chainring will make my MTB faster? I assume it's red, but I just want to be sure I'm getting the fastest one. Also, if I use blue bolts with a red chainring, does that make it slower?

livedarklions

Looking at the stuff a few times over the years, I think the reasons that studies are back and forth about it is because whatever the effects are, they are so weak as to be easily counterbalanced or artifacts (e.g., pulling up--small marginal benefit at the cost of quicker exhaustion). But these are averages. I suspect like most things, some people will experience noticeable benefit from a change, many will not, and some will find it makes things worse. I don't think any of them are likely "wrong".


Like I said, no substitute for trying things for yourself.

big john

Exactly.

nomadmax 

Was that code for "Lighten up Francis" ?

tomato coupe

More likely it was code for "stfu, nobody cares."

79pmooney

A lot of wisdom here. Another suggestion - to get a taste of the various systems for modest bucks - try the Exustar copies of the various pedals. Exustar is a Taiwanese (I believe) company that makes compatible parts to systems past their patents. Usually for bike manufacturers and retailers under their names. Performance had their Forte pedals compatible with the LOOK Delta cleats. (Same pedals could be found at Nashbar and probably a few other sources.) Decent pedals, Not great. Not sure they are worth re-building. (I won't. I tend to ignore pedals until there are issues. With toeclips and straps, the issues are so visible and easy to address that this works just fine. But with clipless, that un-planned pull out could be a crash. So I just use these cheaper pedals for say 10,000 miles then spend the not so big bucks and put on another pair. If I paid the bucks for the real deal, they might stay on my bike forever, like the Campy NRs I put on my Mooney. (At 38,000 miles I changed pedal systems. Did the bearings once.) So for me, the Exustar (Performance pedals work great. Still have a pair or two in boxes. I'm guessing that the Exustars will be near extinct when those die and I'll have to decide what system is next.

VegasJen

I think you're as close as anybody so far in this thread. I've watched a few different videos on the subject (GCN and others), and the results are always similar. The difference is so marginal it's hard to quantify. The discussion almost always reverts to the other factors like foot retention and stability. And that's fine. Everything I've seen does state there is an almost imperceptible advantage to being clipped in. At the elite level, that 0.01% difference could mean the difference between winning and middle of the pack. For you and me, that makes it more a matter of comfort and confidence. I'm sure some people legitimately feel a distinct difference, but for some others, I think it's really nothing more than a placebo effect.

shelbyfv

It must be pretty strong to offset the negatives our contrarian experiences. Think how hard playing the solitary genius must be. Suffering bizarre fit on dubious equipment, all contact points unique, How many among us would do that 19 mile TT with a saddle tilted at 45 degrees? In jorts? On flip flops? The commitment!! And to then receive no appreciation of that genius.

big john

It depends on what you want from the pedals. To me, it's about the connection with the bike, the security, knowing even when I'm having brain fade late in a hard, hot ride my feet will be secure. And more than that. This is way more than a placebo. Way more than 0.01%, it's huge.

big john

Heavy is the head that wears the crown.

rsbob 

Hopefully a last point on the raging debate on flats versus clipless. I am not aware (a constant state of being) of rigid carbon or even plastic soled shoes that help in the power transfer to flat pedals. They may exist but they are out of my universe - but am sure someone will step up and correct me. Perhaps it’s not so much the pedals themselves but the mating of a stout soled shoe which doesn’t flex to the pedal which helps in power delivery. This goes for toe straps/rat traps too.

I really only notice the BOAs on my shoes need to be tightened when climbing - since I do tend to pull up a tad at about the 6-7:00 part of the pedal stroke (bad habit?). There was a thread about BOAs loosening, or not being properly tightened to begin with, and how would this be noticed if the shoe was only being used to push down?

livedarklions

Quote:
Originally Posted by beng1
…there is zero scientific testing…

The science shows that the muscles used…

…switch to independent and critical thinking and actual research and science.



Bad, bad fake "gotcha".

There is scientific testing but it shows no effect. Your quoting of him was deceptively selective because you cut off the part after "zero scientific testing" which said "that shows..." Saying that there is no scientific testing that supports X is not the same thing as saying X hasn't been tested scientifically. If you quoted him that way on purpose, it's as bad as lying.

3alarmer 

big john

So you believed him when he said he used clipless pedals? The great all knowing and omnipotent fount of knowledge, the all seeing stream of consciousness was sucked in to following "fashion" like the ignorant masses? Duped by marketing like so many crazed lemmings? Say it ain't so!

And in a moment of clarity, he saw the error of his ways and decided to poop on others who have made the same faux pas.

livedarklions

You do know you're drastically overstating what he actually said, right? He went out of his way to point out that maximum effort performances like fast climbing and sprinting were not tested, and was pretty clear that the advantages there were too obvious to merit much study.

3alarmer 

These all work pretty well for me:






The important things with clips and straps are to get clips that are the proper length for your feet, so you don't end up with foot issues from pushing on the pedals with your foot mispositioned on the pedal. And to find and buy straps that are stiff enough to maintain a loop for entry and exit of the foot. A double gated clip, like the ones made and sold by Soma, and many of the clips sold as mountain bike clips, can help with maintaining this open loop. But most of the straps currently sold are too limp to work well.

3alarmer 

...this is why I have dedicated my retirement years to becoming an important social influencer. You're welcome.

Eric F 

In hindsight, after my initial post, I realized that he has been around long enough to have maybe had some experience with clipless pedals. Making the assumption of ignorance was possibly inaccurate. Interestingly, the time period he said he started using them is the same as mine (and probably yours). There seems to be a lack of awareness that other folks have also been doing this cycling thing for a long time, have had lots of different experiences with different things, and have done their own research.