Training on a trainer vs. IRL riding
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genejockey - that's exactly my experience. I ride at least 60 minutes a day indoors; those who think "it's boring" are either very unusual people are have little to no experience with current training platforms. Having a random guy from Slovakia chase me through the 3rd stage of the 2014 TdF is not boring.
But the structured workouts - which are meant to legitimize smart trainers, and are effective - become "spin class like" to me. That whole bit of giving your ass a rest - doesn't work if you're on erg mode. I had a hardcore sprint section in Zwift yesterday, and coasted once past the finish line. Started to spin it out and - boom! - on screen message says "let's take this down a bit" and I almost broke the chain!
Everyone has a personal level of interest in data; my general observation is that many software programs are creating a very specific type of cycling skill. chaadster - I like the driving range / batting cage analogy (for me it's a climbing gym). But the climbing gym had a bad side to it, which was creating kids who could boulder tough problems but got outside and had no idea what to do on multi-pitch routes.
Trainers seem to me to build crit racers: hour-long sessions, total emphasis on power and managing sustained power bursts. Rouvy is really the only software I've found so far that works better with what I'd call 'more traditional' style, like coasting, taking moments to stand on the pedals, etc.
But the structured workouts - which are meant to legitimize smart trainers, and are effective - become "spin class like" to me. That whole bit of giving your ass a rest - doesn't work if you're on erg mode. I had a hardcore sprint section in Zwift yesterday, and coasted once past the finish line. Started to spin it out and - boom! - on screen message says "let's take this down a bit" and I almost broke the chain!
Everyone has a personal level of interest in data; my general observation is that many software programs are creating a very specific type of cycling skill. chaadster - I like the driving range / batting cage analogy (for me it's a climbing gym). But the climbing gym had a bad side to it, which was creating kids who could boulder tough problems but got outside and had no idea what to do on multi-pitch routes.
Trainers seem to me to build crit racers: hour-long sessions, total emphasis on power and managing sustained power bursts. Rouvy is really the only software I've found so far that works better with what I'd call 'more traditional' style, like coasting, taking moments to stand on the pedals, etc.
Another small point is that depending on the stationary bike used, one can certainly coast, and unless you bolted a track bike to your trainer, you can coast on one of those as well. Spin bikes don’t coast, but that’s a very different thing from what we’re talking about with Zwift, Rouvy, or smart trainers. There is no reason one cannot do mixed riding (i.e. coasting, standing) on a trainer.
Lastly, I do agree that there are “bad sides” to training for sports which are then rarely done; there is no substitute for experience. In the same way an exclusively indoor wall climber might be great at tough problems but not have the technical experience for making a multi-pitch climb, someone who trains exclusively stationary won’t have the experience at close quarter group riding, rotating a paceline, or picking smooth lines, though they may have the strength to ride A group. That’s a failure of the rider, though, to use training tools properly, not a problem of the training tool.
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I think trainers are great and time-efficient. I can get a lot more training done in an hour on a trainer than I can outside in a couple of hours. My first year on trainerroad I did too well and ended up overtraining because I kept going with the indoor training as well as riding outside. That's easy to avoid though.
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Another small point is that depending on the stationary bike used, one can certainly coast, and unless you bolted a track bike to your trainer, you can coast on one of those as well. Spin bikes don’t coast, but that’s a very different thing from what we’re talking about with Zwift, Rouvy, or smart trainers. There is no reason one cannot do mixed riding (i.e. coasting, standing) on a trainer.
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Stationary bikes are are a broad category, but basically are all-in-one setups, with seat, handlebar, pedals, and some type of resistance unit. Some are fixed gear, others frewheel. These can be as simple as Schwinn Airdyne, to Keiser M3, to Peloton, to CycleOps 300PT, and newer smart versions like their Phantom and Wahoo’s Kickr Bike.
Stationary trainers, aka turbo trainers, are just resistance units, and need a bike attached to them in order to ride. Some use a wheel-on design, typically a drum against the rear tire for resistance, and others use a cassette driven resistance unit, where the bike’s rear tire is removed before mounting to the trainer. Examples are many, like Cycleops Fluid2, Kurt Kinetic Rock n Roll, Wahoo Kickr, and Tacx Neo.
I’ve never heard of a trainer which doesn’t freewheel, but I suppose it’s possible one of the cassette driven types could be made that way, though why one would be seems incomprehensible. Otherwise, whether a wheel-on (or drum driven) unit freewheels is not determined by the trainer, but rather the bike mounted to it.
What kind of trainer do you have which doesn’t freewheel (i.e. coast)?
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y distance at sustained of x speed.
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#36
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Oh come on, there is no definition of coasting which is defined over distance...that’s pure BS. You know full well that this discussion has been about coasting vs. fixed gear, because you jumped in with what was now an obviously pointless comment after I specifically made the point clear that unless a fixed gear was on the trainer, one could coast. Were you sincere, you could have then attempted to make the spurious argument that freewheling is not coasting unless— what was it?— oh yeah, unless “ some Y distance is covered at a sustained speed of X.” My god, what horsesh*t...
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I made very simple rockers (didn't cost me anything) for my cheap elliptical indoor trainer and it really made HUGE difference.
Dramatically improved my performance out of the saddle IRL outdoor rides. They really do work, way way better than rigid trainer and the effort level / perceived effort is pretty close too. It got me to 75% of mastering the technique which is really darn good. The rest of the 25% I worked out IRL outdoor rides up the mountains.
Ofc, I still prefer the RL outdoor training whenever possible way way more than indoor training. The ONLY good thing in indoor training is I can listen to music, something that would be very unsafe to do when training outdoors in medium to heavy traffic.
Dramatically improved my performance out of the saddle IRL outdoor rides. They really do work, way way better than rigid trainer and the effort level / perceived effort is pretty close too. It got me to 75% of mastering the technique which is really darn good. The rest of the 25% I worked out IRL outdoor rides up the mountains.
Ofc, I still prefer the RL outdoor training whenever possible way way more than indoor training. The ONLY good thing in indoor training is I can listen to music, something that would be very unsafe to do when training outdoors in medium to heavy traffic.
I hope this makes your day better. Listen to music and hear your environment too!
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Oh come on, there is no definition of coasting which is defined over distance...that’s pure BS. You know full well that this discussion has been about coasting vs. fixed gear, because you jumped in with what was now an obviously pointless comment after I specifically made the point clear that unless a fixed gear was on the trainer, one could coast. Were you sincere, you could have then attempted to make the spurious argument that freewheling is not coasting unless— what was it?— oh yeah, unless “ some Y distance is covered at a sustained speed of X.” My god, what horsesh*t...
10 full rear 700C wheel revolutions for distance at sustained of 5+ mph average speed would be about what I consider a coast on a trainer.
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#40
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Troul is confusing inertial load with coasting. Inertial load varies from trainer to trainer; some are more lifelike than others. Coasting, on the other hand, can be done on any trainer that doesn't involve a fixed gear wheel; you just stop pedaling.
#41
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When I'm using ERG mode there certainly isn't any coasting, it's pedal or die lol I agree with the above comment regarding inertia, and a difference between the crappiest of the crap trainers and higher end stuff is inertia. I have a Hammer with an actual 20lbs flywheel, and the feel is pretty realistic to what it's like on the actual road, although I couldn't tell you if there's a difference between a real flywheel and the virtual flywheels on other trainers.
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And that gets precisely to the point I was making upthread, that many of the conceptions and complaints people have about stationary riding are to do with misguided expectations and not knowing how to use the tool.
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Hoping mods don't move this.
Like many, I've purchased a smart trainer and am using various software for "pain cave" sessions. As a dedicated Fred, I've noticed that trainer riding and outdoor riding are not correlative. As a guy who once used rollers, I get that - but what I am seeing in others is an increasing focus on short-ride performance.
In other words, I suspect that many who are cutting their teeth as indoor cyclists will find longer rides a challenge.
Or maybe I'm in really poor shape, or maybe I just can't be bothered to destroy myself for 35 minutes and call that "riding."
The two activities don't feel as related as I'd thought. Anyone else?
Like many, I've purchased a smart trainer and am using various software for "pain cave" sessions. As a dedicated Fred, I've noticed that trainer riding and outdoor riding are not correlative. As a guy who once used rollers, I get that - but what I am seeing in others is an increasing focus on short-ride performance.
In other words, I suspect that many who are cutting their teeth as indoor cyclists will find longer rides a challenge.
Or maybe I'm in really poor shape, or maybe I just can't be bothered to destroy myself for 35 minutes and call that "riding."
The two activities don't feel as related as I'd thought. Anyone else?
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Right, and as you know, ERG is just a mode of operation for the trainer, and using resistance or standard mode, you could coast. ERG mode is great for structured workouts, but a structured training workout is not at all like going out for a ride.
And that gets precisely to the point I was making upthread, that many of the conceptions and complaints people have about stationary riding are to do with misguided expectations and not knowing how to use the tool.
And that gets precisely to the point I was making upthread, that many of the conceptions and complaints people have about stationary riding are to do with misguided expectations and not knowing how to use the tool.
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#45
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Definition; Coasting - moving easily without using power.
"I stopped pedaling and let the coasting bicycle creep down the road"
You answer obtusely and then demand he give YOU a math equation to define what we all already understand as a generally shared meaning for coasting?
With your dumb little equation, what's the cutoff? If I'm riding outside up a hill and stop pedaling I won't "coast" very far, If I don't have the required X to take me a certain Y....in your mind I won't be coasting?
It's a trainer...we're not actually outside riding, not accumulating mileage, and in effect not coasting of course but to keep egging someone on like that is pretty lame. You knew exactly what he meant when he said coasting.
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Jesus, why be so pedantic about it? I have the same trainer and it "coasts". If you pedal for 10 seconds with power and then stop pedaling your freewheel is still turning. Coasting.
Definition; Coasting - moving easily without using power.
"I stopped pedaling and let the coasting bicycle creep down the road"
You answer obtusely and then demand he give YOU a math equation to define what we all already understand as a generally shared meaning for coasting?
With your dumb little equation, what's the cutoff? If I'm riding outside up a hill and stop pedaling I won't "coast" very far, If I don't have the required X to take me a certain Y....in your mind I won't be coasting?
It's a trainer...we're not actually outside riding, not accumulating mileage, and in effect not coasting of course but to keep egging someone on like that is pretty lame. You knew exactly what he meant when he said coasting.
Definition; Coasting - moving easily without using power.
"I stopped pedaling and let the coasting bicycle creep down the road"
You answer obtusely and then demand he give YOU a math equation to define what we all already understand as a generally shared meaning for coasting?
With your dumb little equation, what's the cutoff? If I'm riding outside up a hill and stop pedaling I won't "coast" very far, If I don't have the required X to take me a certain Y....in your mind I won't be coasting?
It's a trainer...we're not actually outside riding, not accumulating mileage, and in effect not coasting of course but to keep egging someone on like that is pretty lame. You knew exactly what he meant when he said coasting.
Exactly, coasting can be defined differently by anyone. Hence "you need to define coasting to better the response." If your average riding is up a hill against wind with T-rex's chasing you from the east & goldfish swimming south, well I guess you would define coasting differently.
I do not know what is meant, therefore your assumption is just your opinion.
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#47
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This is likely the case. If I set my preload to the OEM instructions & the next person overly or lessens the resistance, it'll change the inertia load by a lot. To me, that interia load impacts coasting abilities on a trainer. Rendering mine not a coasting trainer. I'm training for exercise & really any coasting would not be a benefit.
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#48
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You still don't get it. Inertial load is how fast the wheel accelerates or decelerates when power changes (not pedaling is just the particular case where power goes to 0). Coasting is when your legs stop moving. Inertial load doesn't impact your ability to stop your legs from moving.
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You still don't get it. Inertial load is how fast the wheel accelerates or decelerates when power changes (not pedaling is just the particular case where power goes to 0). Coasting is when your legs stop moving. Inertial load doesn't impact your ability to stop your legs from moving.
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#50
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I'm an old-school rollers combined with resistance unit(s). I have two roller-belt-driven wind resistance units. None are hooked if I just want to ride the rollers to work on my balance and cadence smoothness. One if I want a more 'realistic' ride, and both are hooked up if I want an extreme workout. Now this might not appeal to those that want to have a variable resistance 'real ride' feel of going up--and down hills, but it has worked for me for over 45 years now!
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