rfmarotti

LOL. Care to point me to the text of these laws? Who enforces them? The shadow world government that has authority over all countries? As pointed out above, this is western-centric piety at its best. Don't try and disguise it with a (totally BS) legal argument.

himespau 

It's my understanding (I'm not a lawyer) that all countries that are part of the Berne Union (as are the US and China) are legally obligated to respect each other's copyrights. Therefore, if Pinarello feels someone has misappropriated their copyright, they can sue them in the local court of the offender and have the backing of numerous international treaties. So the local government of every country that signed the treaty should be enforcing it. Just because China doesn't choose to (unless pushed on individual offenses - and even then only when it can't get out of it), doesn't mean that it hasn't signed an agreement saying it will respect and enforce any US copyrights that its citizens violate.

dcsix

Well, there's this from late last year...and what's with all the "Western Centric" talk? Are we not "Western"?

Nov 16 Luxury outerwear maker Moncler said on Monday it had won a legal battle against a Chinese company that produced and sold down jackets with the Italian group's logo, as Beijing cracks down on counterfeits.

Moncler, whose luxury down jackets can sell for up to $2,000, said it had been awarded 420,000 euros in damages by an intellectual property court in Beijing.
"This is ... believed to be the first judgment under China's new trademark law to grant maximum statutory damages," the company said in a note.
In December 2014 Moncler sued local company Beijing Nuoyakate Gourmet after discovering it sold jackets with counterfeit Moncler logos and had tried to register several fake trademarks and domain names in China and elsewhere.
China has been trying to shake off a reputation for widespread pirated and counterfeit goods, long a major headache for global brands targeting the Chinese market.
Earlier this month China said it would use cloud computing, big data and tighter rules on user identity to fight online sales of fake goods. (Reporting by Valentina Za; Editing by Susan Fenton)

Italy's Moncler wins trademark lawsuit as China fights counterfeiters | Reuters

merlinextraligh

You're showing your ignorance. There's a whole body of intellectual property laws that protect people's trademarks and copyrights. These laws are in place for a reason. They allow people to profit from their labor,capitol, and innovation. If you invest, in developing a product, risk your time and money, and then anyone can steal it, and take your profits there's no incentive to make investments.

The work it took to design, engineer, and produce the original Pinarello didn't just magically happen. Without protection for intellectual property, you would have dramatically lower economic wealth for all involved. So you can thank the intellectual property laws for supporting a system of trade, investment, innovation, that is in part responsible for all the technological improvements we have in a wide array of products, including the fancy bikes we ride.

Its unfortunate that a generation that grew up pirating music on the internet doesn't understand this.

merlinextraligh

And BTW, the Chinarello people clearly understand that what they are doing is illegal. They don't picture the Pinarello logo or decals in their ads, make vague references to it, and then add the decals. If this was all ok, they'd picture the bikes complete with the Pinarello labels.

rfmarotti

I was LOLing at the "internationally accepted" bit. Not the existence of IP law as a concept or (country by country) reality.

Sy Reene

But I think you yourself even said that these replicas and the Honfus etc are "not at all the same thing" And the fact is, as you agree, that we really don't know this to be the case. I myself am not betting on anything in this race; I'm more of curious bystander on this topic. I just seem to get the impression, if it isn't being said outright, that people are maintaining that replicas are [by default] dangerous and low quality. Yet, it seems to me that the evidence for this conclusion is spotty.

SkepticalOne

Setting ethics and legalities aside, my earlier caution was based on the following...

To the extent that a frame design has been optimized for strength-to-weight, there is a stronger contingency on the unique properties of the laminates used and their lay-up (orientation and fabrication). To simply match the outer dimensions of one frame using carbon composite in the absence of the original prints, is not to guarantee achieve the equal strength. This is fundamental to composite structures. I think that is all that can really be said. For frames coming out of the same factory as the genuine-article, there may be no such difference. For a frame coming off of any line other than that of the genuine-article is almost guaranteed to have different, and likely inferior structural properties all other things being equal.


Whether a given frame 'replica' has adequate strength is therefore not only the result of the pedigree of the manufacturer, but the extent to which the authentic frame has been optimized by its original designers - the extent to which safety margin exists for the use of sub-optimal materials and lay-up.

rpenmanparker 

I do not assert that replicas are dangerous and low quality. I say that a cheater and fraud can't be trusted to do it right. They may, but I am not betting on it.

himespau 

How much do the molds cost? Are they prohibitively expensive to the point where the only way a seller could make a profit would be in the same factory on the same molds as the genuine article or are they cheap enough that anyone who thought he/she could sell in volume could do it? I bet @Bob Dopolina would have an idea - and it's probably the latter case, but I don't know for certain.

garysol1 

I think the OP needs the matching Ferrari........

OnyxTiger

Looks like it already assploded.

Seriously though I am one of the crowd that would be tempted to take up one of these frames for a project. If my current frame went caput, I'd probably consider a Chinese frame to transfer my components to. $500 for a cool high-end rep vs. a $1500 mid level frame may just be worth the experiment, especially considering all the reviews I've seen from those who've ridden them. Although there's definitely the issue of intellectual rights, it also seems that those opposing it the most really don't have any experience to back up their claims of such bikes assploding at 30mph.

rpenmanparker 

The mold isn't the issue. Even using the real brands' own molds, a fraud could easily downgrade the CF layup to make a crappy bike. You are mistaking how the bike looks for how well it can handle the stresses imposed on it.

jwalther

That is true as well.

himespau 

Sure they could. But so many people advertise that they're making the same frames on the same molds with the same folks just at night after the original contract has been fulfilled, and it's the same guys doing it, so that they have the expertise to do it right. I'm just wondering if that's necessarily true. If molds are so expensive that it's not worth making them unless you can sell a whole lot of frames like a name brand can, maybe that's true. If it's cheap enough to make molds that every Joe and Frank Alibaba can easily make their own set and press the 6 year old off the street into service laying down layers of carbon weave, I'd be less inclined to believe it.

Fly2High

Is there any reason that the knockoff manufacturer did not take an authentic frame or for that matter just order parts for a frame and stress test them and then create layup, albeit probably heavier due to different layups, to achieve the same physical properties?

After all, they are in the composites business. Why wouldn't they do this? I am sure the molded piece for a frame tube, down tube or bottom bracket or any other component of the frame can be ordered so as to repair the genuine. article. They might not be hitting the same weight but the strength and stiffness could be met at a higher weight which it sounds like from measurements of weight and from ride quality seem to be the case.

In my own opinion, I wish all the lawyers types and rich guys who are putting down the guy who is only trying to afford this hobby in the best way they can would stop posting in these threads. I think there has been enough complaints about intellectual property and the illegal aspect of copyright infringement and what not. For all those who are angry someone else got a similar bike, granted not the same bike, for less, I too wish they would contain their jealousy. Living near NYC, you see in Manhattan all those knock offs of everything being sold. Online you find this too. To me, as long as the buyer is aware of what they are getting, it is between them and St. Peter and any lawman that catches up with them. As for the rest of the Chinese frames from good vendors , like Heng Fu, Workswell, etc., I wish them success in their business.

DO not think I wish anyone harm. To me, should a bike fail, the full letter of the law should be thrown at the manufacturer. As for failures, there are plenty of sites where even name brand bikes have failed.

I would leave it to the buyer and the reputation of the manufacturer to carry whether one should buy a particular frame. All the rest of this nonsense should be kept to oneself.

AS they say, if you have nothing nice to say, you should keep it to yourself.

OP, congrats on you bike. Post a photo or two when you can and continue to report on it now and in the future. This is the only way we can learn of its quality and performance.

eja_ bottecchia

I have to agree with all of the above. Doing business with people who openly break the law is not a good thing.

But to each his or her own. I guess the appeal of being seen riding something that looks like a high end bike overwhelms common sense.

Happy riding.

69chevy

Manufacturers will have you believe that they have some super-secret layup that makes their bikes better than the competition, and to some degree they do.

They know exactly where to skimp on material for weight reductions while maintaining the structural integrity of the frame. They know exactly where to add more to make the bike stiff in the right places.

But these manipulations save grams, not pounds. A knockoff frame is built to look like a “real” frame, not perform like one, so they don’t need to save these grams or to stiffen these areas for a 12% stiffness gain.

These knockoff frame builders may not know the proprietary layup of the original (maybe they do), but it’s not like these guys don’t already know how carbon frames can be laid up to be strong enough.

It cracks me up to read people who act like name brand frames are produced in some state of the art facility with guys in lab coats supervising every step, while the cheap frames are made in some make-shift facility.

Carbon fiber isn’t some top secret, limited access material that you need a PhD to figure out. If you have access to the materials, the tools and a few workers who have done it for the name brands, you can make the exact parts as the name brands.

merlinextraligh

Several of us lawyer types are suggesting another alternative that is no way elitist: one of a number of well respected generic Asian frames. The point isn't you have to buy an expensive name brand, the point is it's risky to deal with black market counterfeiters. So why not forgo the fake decals and get a more trustworthy frame for the same price?

TheKillerPenguin

This thread is shady and gross.

digibud

ha hah....I like that. While I would personally never buy a chinarello simply because I would not want to trust it with my life while bombing down a mountain at 50mph, it's your choice, your bike, your life. I'm a slow riding (compared to young, fit folk) 65yr old with a sweet SWorks Roubaix that is way above my pay grade so I just smile when young, fit riders pass me on some old piece of junk. I think the legality/morality is an interesting topic for another thread but would say that just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's immoral.

indyfabz

****

Stucky

....but attenmtion to detail and quality-control can make a huge difference. The name-brands are also worried about liability- they have a lot to lose. The [what I call] 2nd-tier manufacturers (Hongfu, Dengfu, Workswell) have things pretty well figured out, and have built themselves a good reputation over time and are probably not far behind the big name-brands as far as attention to detail and quality control. The third-tier manufacturers- i.e. the counterfeits/no name Ebay and Alibaba stuff....those are the ones with virtually nothing to lose. They are untouchable as far as financial liability; and they don't care about or even have a reputation to protect. Those are the ones whose frames, when tested, are seen to contain voids in the lay-up, and other such major structural defects, simply because there is little or no attention to detail nor quality control. They're just making something that looks like something else, as cheaply as they can. As long as the product comes out looking the part, it's good to go. I mean let's face it, if they can not only screw-up BB threading, but also not catch (or don't care about) such a flaw...and ditto a worthless saddle bolt.....things which are exteranl and easy to catch and correct, how much confidence could one have that quality work was being done with the lay-up vs. incompetent/uncaring people just performing a task in a factory, which is considered acceptable as long as the finished product looks O-K on the outside?

69chevy

You really think the "no-name" frames and the "fake" frames come from different places?

How many of these factories do you think there are?

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PixelPaul

I don't understand the thought process of those who choose to buy and ride this counterfeit stuff. Road cycling by itself is inherently risky, but we all accept the risks in order to do something we enjoy. But why would one choose to add additional risks by using equipment of questionable quality and origins? Especially when the $1400 stated by the OP would buy a pretty nice bike from a reputable company? I don't get it.