npfet

Hi,

I'm looking for a bike to replace my Trek 7100. I only have room to store one bike, so it will likely be used for everything, from commuting to weekend rides. I'd like to be able to do some dirt trails with a friend (he mostly mountain bikes), but nothing technical. I'd also like to get into more recreational longer distance riding (maybe 30 or 40 miles).

I'm considering the Novara Safari - since it is touring-oriented (for long distance), but has disc brakes and 26" tires (incremental weather, and some dirt trails). The adjustable stem also looks good. That said, it will most often be used on road and not dirt, and I won't do any touring on it (at least, not any time soon). Mostly just commuting and recreational riding. I was also considering the Novara Randonee, which was spec'd ~3 lbs lighter, but couldn't the Safari be lightened by replacing the tires and seatpost?

Would the Safari cruise nicely on the road (maybe even century rides, eventually), or would I be at a noticeable disadvantage over the Randonee for road? If you were to own only one bike which would you choose? Which would last longer?

cachehiker

A rigid post and some true 350g street tires would probably lighten it up by almost 2 lbs.

You didn't mention where you live or what sorts of trails you're considering but you won't find a bike that good for both centuries AND trails. Both the Randonee and the Safari are similarly capable all around bikes differing primarily in their wheel size, handlebars, and brakes.

The Randonee gets the edge but a century ride on either is pretty hard core. I ride a hair under 5000 miles per year and figure it would take me over six hours and 4500 calories where my road racer gets it done in five hours and 3500 calories.

I could furthermore ride many of the trails around here on either but the Safari gets the edge. However, there's no way I would keep up with the guys on dedicated mountain bikes with front suspension and slacker head tube angles.

Both bikes are better all around but if I were going to pick just one of my bikes to keep and part with the rest, it would either be the cyclocross bike or the hardtail mountain bike. I'd also have a knobby wheelset and a slick wheelset for each. I personally wouldn't try to go right down the middle with the Randonee or the Safari or any other touring or hybrid bike.

I guess that means it would boil down to picking a discipline I wanted to keep up with the group on and giving up on most of the other. In any case, the eventual (and truly painful) choice would mean either giving up on all but the easiest trails or forgetting about riding centuries.

npfet

Yep, a multi-purpose bike would of course be a compromise. Like I said, I don't have much storage space for more than one bike. Actually, right now I have room for two or three, but I'm recently out of college, have a job (silicon valley), but may go to grad school out of the state in a few years. In the case, fitting all possessions in car + bike on top, curbing the need for multiple trips, is a big plus. If I go to grad school in the midwest, a bike that can handle rain and snow well would be nice. Another path I may choose in a few years is buying a small condo in SF, depending how the housing market is doing. Hence, a bike that handles well in city, perhaps more upright riding posture, would be helpful.

I highly doubt I'd be racing on a bike anytime soon. And I'm not real big on technical trail rides. Really, I'm just looking for a bike to get in shape, commute on everyday, do some longer rides on the weekend, and last a number of years. A little off-roading capability would be nice, but not required... think fire roads, not single track. I think I'm looking for something more utilitarian and leisure than sport.

I currently have a Trek 7100... it's a couple years, maybe 1k miles. I suppose for my use it would be sufficient. It seems fairly heavy though and ill-suited to long distance. Would the Safari not be much better? I'm surprised you say touring bikes aren't well suited for centuries (besides racing), since they are for long-distance. Maybe I should checkout the Novara Element? With the double chainring on the front, I'm worried about gearing on that one.

Edit: The Randonee is a steel frame, which is tempting... not to turn this into a aluminum vs steel debate, but it would be great to get a frame that I'd still be upgrading components on in 20 years. Am I more likely to do that to the Safari, Randonee, or Element?

cachehiker

Well, touring bikes are intended for long distances in their own way but there is recreational touring and loaded touring and long distance touring and off road touring and there are all sorts of subtle differences in the way the bike gets set up for each. My Jamis Aurora is set up as a loaded tourer whereas my Soma Double Cross is closer to a long distance tourer.

I'm looking at both Novaras and assuming loaded touring duty with wider tires, a rack, fenders, etc. which puts centuries out there at the extreme edge of the fitness bell curve. You could of course remove the extras and swap on some narrow tires for longer rides but you will eventually grow weary of the changeovers. Both bikes are more or less built to carry loads first and go fast second.

Once I get past the first few hours of a century ride, every 10 minutes or so I take of off the end of it adds up to about an hour less recovery. I therefore think quicker bike.

How often do you intend to carry 50 lbs. or more? I doubt something like the K2 Merge (also available through REI) could handle 50 lbs. but it could easily accomodate a light duty rack and could more easily be set up to ride centuries with. The stock 700x32c tires would be ho hum in the dirt but you could put some knobbies for cyclocross on it too.

Your Trek 7100 is probably heavy and assembled with a flat bar and lower end components. The Randonee and the Safari are probably just as heavy but assembled with slightly better components. They will both offer more flexibility and you'll probably be happier with either but I wouldn't expect them to be dramatically faster. That is, unless you go to skinny tires, lighter wheels, etc. which you could also do to the 7100.

npfet

Right now I don't do any touring, and don't plan to. Thus, I never carry 50 lbs. I was mostly influenced towards a touring bike for commuting/general-purpose use from https://www.faughnan.com/touringbike.html and https://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/lifestyle/newbike.htm. Let me know if that is bad advice. Reviews on REI's site of the Safari indicated a lot of people suggesting it as a great all-in-one bike. A few reviewers routinely rode it over more expensive fixies, mtbs, etc... for whatever reason. I didn't find mention of versatility when looking at the Randonee. FWIW, I have tested the Safari... feels pretty comfortable, but I haven't tried the Randonee or any road bikes (other than very quick rides on a Trek 1.2 and a lower-end Marin hybrid with slicks).

A simpler question I should ask is: Which frame (Randonee, Element, Safari) will I most likely keep forever, and take pride in rebuilding? I feel that was my biggest mistake in getting the 7100, is that the frame isn't good enough to keep around. It looks like the Randonee has been sold for a couple decades and has a strong following, with people riding it for many years. I don't find that for the Safari, but it hasn't been around for nearly as long. Any idea which would be less desirable to thieves, if I painted the frame black?

Velo Dog

Every bike is a compromise of some sort. For all but the most serious riders (a group that doesn't include me anymore, but used to), a tire swap will make almost any hybrid or even a mountain bike work fine on the road. I did my first century, 20 years ago, on a Mongoose mountain bike with 26x1.25 tires. It hurt a lot and I was slow, but the same is true on my Rambouillet today.
I don't know the Safari, but I used to have a Randonee and used it for everything from long day rides to fire trails. It worked fine, never had any problems, and I'd still have it if I hadn't destroyed it in a crash. My present main ride is a Rivendell Atlantis, a similar design, and I use that for everything, too. My mountain bike hasn't been out of the garage all summer because I'd rather swap wheels on the Atlantis and use that in dirt.

BillyBob

I have 4 bikes.

A road racing bike, cyclocross bike, hardtail mountain bike and cruiser. My absolute favorite and one that I ride most often is the cyclocross bike. Commuting or group rides the cyclocross is the most comfortable and with 32mm tires can handle nontechnical trails.

If I was convinced that I was going to stay on the road, or rails to trails, I would consider a bike like the Surly Pacer which would shave some weight off the fork, and give me cailper brakes and still allow fenders and a rack.

Good luck in your search, which reminds me that I have to sell my road bike sometime.

npfet

Any idea how close the Safari is to a cyclocross then? I have heard that geometry of the Safari is closer to a road bike than a mtn bike. (Though I've heard the opposite as well)

cachehiker

The Trek 7100 is a reasonably good frame, the problem is the rest of the components. The bike might be worth taking in for a tune up every 1000 miles or so but is not worth upgrading to better meet your needs. Setting it up in a manor worth taking real care of is simply more expensive than buying a better bike. Hybrids and touring bikes have very similar geometries but differ primarily in the price points and target market. Work a $250 hybrid like you would a $1000 touring bike and your bottom bracket, hubs, etc. will be worn out at about the same times as your tires and brake pads. You can also justify a $150 overhaul and an upgrade or two for the $1000 touring bike but not the hybrid.

"Loaded" touring bikes do make great all around bikes, especially if you're going to use them for general commuting, grocery shopping, and the odd run to the parts store when you need an unexpected something or other to get your "Satan's Energy Drink" powered transportation back on the road.

However, if you're not going to carry heavy loads and want to do a century or two they may not be the best fit. Although it will likely be faster for things like centuries, you can't go camping and have to keep the shopping list short with a lighter duty rack mounted on something like the K2 Merge. It has it's limitations off road as well.

A quick XC hardtail with slicks will also be nearly as fast as a touring bike but much more capable for fire roads and such. Ask my buddy Jim, he was on his Cannondale R600 and I kicked his butt running Michelin road slicks on a GT Zaskar. They aren't generally built with general transport with racks and panniers in mind though, mine has no bosses to accomodate them. One you've gone to a rack and panniers, you'll never go back to a backpack. And to be honest, I was on an awesome hand built wheelset built with XTR hubs and DT Revolution spokes.

And BTW, it's the upgraded 7100 that would be less desireable to thieves. I don't know what year you've got but look for a much better clearance sale hybrid wheelset and 700x28c tires. Ditching the adjustable stem, the suspension seatpost, and the springy saddle will drop a lot of weight and deliver better power transfer for $60-$80. Of course you'd still be stuck with some drivetrain parts that will need to be replaced at about the same time you've worn out the tires.

It isn't an easy call. Do you have somebody who might want to give you a fair price for the 7100?

BillyBob

I lusted after a safari for a few hours last year. My conclusion is that unless I rode dirt roads and trails 90% of the time, I would prefer 700 cc tires. If I only wanted a sturdy commuter, I would consider the safari. However, I prefer a cyclocross bike for group rides.

cachehiker

It's more road bike-ish than my pure XC hardtail, more mountain bike-ish than my touring bike or my cyclocross bike. All in all, it's a pretty good all around choice. I'd love to own one but space limits my stable to six and sometimes seven bikes. However, I personally wouldn't be doing centuries on it, or my XC hardtail, or my touring bike for that matter. I have done a century on my cyclocross bike with 700x25c Michelin Carbons though.

npfet

Nope - I was thinking of selling it on craigslist, with school season starting soon and all.

I think I'd also like to replace the cheap RST suspension fork with a rigid fork, in addition to the components you mentioned, if I were to keep the 7100.

Do you mean replace the drivetrain parts when i replace the wheelset, or after i've worn new tires out? The drivetrain is pretty noisy. I have 2005 or 2006... SRAM 3.0 rear derailer, etc... Brakes also either (a) rub all the time or (b) don't lock. Originally I thought it was because wheel was not true, but I trued it with little improvement. I haven't replace the brake pads, but they still have plenty of groove left. They pretty cheap v-brakes though, and a PITA to unclip (?) when taking the wheels off. So I might want to replace those if new rims don't help.

Also, I was looking at touring bikes because of the different hand positions.. so I might want to end up getting drop or butterfly bars if I keep the 7100. Oh, and toe clips would be good too (just have cheapo plastic pedals right now). At that point it seems all I would have left is the frame. Think it would be significantly cheaper, and provide similar quality, to the $670 (on sale) Safari or ~$750 Randonee?

npfet

By the way, what cyclocross do you have? And do you know if the Novara Element would be a decent cyclocross? (If you can find the page on web.archive.org or something)

cachehiker

Decent rigid fork with labor: $100. Decent Wheels: $200. Decent Tires:$70.

When they wear out, that is, about the same time the tires are gone.

I doubt it. It sounds like you're on the right track. If I lived in NYC and was paranoid about theft I might do the looks cheap but speedier 7100 upgrade though. I've just gotten the impression that you might be happier going a little bit faster and lighter duty. My steel cyclocross bike (a $1500 custom build by yours truly) is a solid 1-1.5 mph faster than my touring bike and still capable of carrying 35 lbs., finishing centuries, and riding the same trails.

Have you looked at a Jamis Satellite? Can't run tires larger that narrow 700x28's but Hey! It's bike sale season, it has rack bosses and is century capable too! It sounds like that the niche you're looking for. It takes practice but I ride bits of dirt on tougher 700x23's all the time.

npfet

The Jamis Satellite doesn't look bad, but I can't seem to find any dealers in the area (Palo Alto) that carry it.

npfet

Looking around more, the Surly Cross-check might work well. Any idea how it might compare to the Safari? There was one post in the forums mentioning the Safari might be a better value... I'm not sure.

BillyBob

Grab a cross-check, you can't go wrong. If you will be on the road more often than not, it is the best value.

dynaryder

My Safari pwns Cross Checks,that's why I made that posting.

I had an Element and returned it. The gearing was all wrong for the hills I do,and the alloy fork bothered my carpel tunnel. The Randonee doesn't interest me because I hate adjusting canti brakes,and don't like rim brakes in general. Nothing wrong with the alloy frame on the Safari. I've run 1.5" slicks in the summer and it was never harsh. The adjustable stem and trekking bar allow you to dial in your riding position and offer more useful hand holds than a drop bar. Discs require less maintenance than rim brakes,the pads last longer,they don't wear your rims,don't care how true the rim is,and work in all weather. If I could only have one bike,out of my entire fleet,it would be the Safari.

cachehiker

I have a Soma Double Cross built up with a 38-48 Ultegra crank driving an 11-28 IRD cassette. The wheels are hand built Open Pros on Ultegra Hubs and the usual day to day tires are Vittoria 700x32c Randonneur Pros. It's deceptively fast and without the rack, pedals, and cages, it weighs a hair over 23 lbs.

The Surly Cross Check is a similar bike that tends to hold its value rather well. If properly sized, I don't see how you could possibly go wrong with it.

The Novara Element is a good cross bike too. I think I'd spin out the 48-12 gear real easy though (around 35 mph) so I'd probably replace the 12-26 cassette with an 11-something.

REI was still carrying a K2 Enemy cyclocross bike last year at a price similar to the Element. It had canti brakes and was a bit lighter and racier.

cachehiker

And I hate adjusting disc brakes.

sumguy

Switched from a front suspension hybrid to the Safari. Use for 8.4mi RT commute, groceries, errands. Just did 28mi Friday, my longest ride and was feeling it. Maybe its the fit or my lack of experience (previous longest ride was 19mi), will do more distance to see if it gets easier. My goal is to try a century. The Conti T&C 26x1.9 tires were junk and switched to Forte ST/K 26x1.25 at 90psi. It works well for hauling stuff so far. Some people in the touring forum use the Randonnee and you may find more information there. I think the Randonee has a higher gearing for road - spend most of my time in 3x7 on the Safari.

Andy_K 

Reading your initial post, I kept thinking, why isn't this person looking at cyclocross bikes. The Cross Check is closer to what you described as what you're looking for than the Safari. I commute on a Kona Jake, which is fairly similar to the Cross Check, and I love it. I rode my first century on it a couple of weeks ago, and I've had it off road a few times (I do keep two sets of tires, so I can run slicks most of the time and the CX semi-knobbies off road).

npfet

Looking around, one of the local bike shops can order a Cross Check, but they don't normally have them in stock. A complete build is close to $1k, and only has two chain rings in the front, so I'd probably like to switch to a triple at some point. Another place has a different, custom build of the Cross Check, but it is $1.4k.

I'm just not sure if the Cross Check offers a significant advantage over the Safari as far as versatility, for 40% cost increase (plus some extra to change the gearing)... the Safari is on-sale for $670. Is the frame really that much better/more versatile/lighter? The geometries seem similar, aluminum vs steel, but couldn't I match the weight pretty closely by changing out wheels and seat post? In what other ways is the Safari frame that different? Disc vs calipers boss and horizontal dropout...? Anything else..? Is there any reason the Safari with thinner tires couldn't be equivalent...? Maybe, since the Safari is aluminum, you really need seat post suspension to get rid of buzz, adding weight?

It isn't apparent to me why the Cross Check is good for century rides when the Safari isn't, other than tires and looks.

Sorry to be arguing this, since I'm sure everyone who has responded has much more experience. I appreciate the responses, I'm just having a hard time seeing what the actual differences are.

Andy_K 

You should definitely ride the Safari, but ride a cyclocross bike too. Do any of your local dealers carry the Kona Jake? The '08 Jake retailed for $850. As the '09s come out you might find one on sale if anyone has one.

The Safari is nice, and it's a very good price right now. The components on the Safari are very good. I especially like the fact that it has disc brakes.

Personally, I don't like the handlebar, but it does have its advantages. I think the 26 inch wheels are a strike against it. I'm not sure what the riding position would be like. If it's upright, that would be a primary reason that it wouldn't be good for a century. If you can tuck down and get out of the wind then maybe it would be OK.

Anyway, the key point is that it's going to be your bike, so if you ride the Safari and like it, then it's the bike to get.

npfet

Couldn't seem to find any good dealers that carry Kona's locally. There was one, but it looked like they just have catalogs, and do not carry them in-stock.

The Ritchey adjustable stem should allow the Trek bars to drop a good deal, I think. Both the stem angle and the handle bar angle are adjustable. It seems that would be best of both worlds: keep upright for city and drop for long-distance. Any reason that wouldn't give enough tuck? Are adjustable stems usually much heavier?