zjrog

Picture to show how far I've come. Gastric sleeve weight loss surgery Oct. of last year. 132 pounds from my heaviest (378), 110 pounds since surgery. Presently 246 and shrinking.

As a requirement of my post surgical diet, I still avoid most carbs. That places me in a bit of a pickle on 20 mile plus rides.

My question is more for KetoAtkins style no carb diets. What do you guys do for extra energy on rides?

Tulok

I am personally thin as a rail, I tried keto and I couldn’t recover after rides for over a week. It was draining despite feeling great when I wasn’t trying to put in a hard effort. I did manage to set a serious PR on one climb I like the first ride after being truly into Ketosis, but after that I couldn’t get the pain out of my legs for 2 weeks.

I have read from multiple sources now that your body will not introduce an insulin spike if you eat simple carbs while exercising.

I’m not a doctor by my suggestion would be to bring a banana or something and eat it at mile 15, and see if you can make it to 30 miles! 1 banana won’t kill you but it can extend your miles in my experience.

zjrog

I used to be rail thin, 36 years ago. I weighed 150 to 155, from age 14 to 21. despite growing another 6 or 7 inches. I was under 4% bodyfat. I just couldn't gain... And then, it all changed... But things didn't go off the rails till I retired from the Navy 18 years ago...

So, the other day I tried something a bit different. I chose to eat a 200 calorie protein bar before my ride. Something I eat regularly, so no unexpected unpleasantness. I ate a second one at my 15 mile point. More as experiment than perceived need. And I had no issue getting through the next nearly 9 miles. Caveat, the bars at 200 calories are 20g protein and 23g carbs. Now, my app calculated I expended 1100+ calories for my hour and 45 minute effort. after the 400 calories of the bars, I was still more than 700 in deficit.

I am pleased to keep a calorie deficit daily, but it isn't consistent, as it is 1000 to 4000 a day, depending on my job and other activities. But that doesn't always equate to weight loss. But even on weeks the scale doesn't change, I can still see other changes. Losing inches or dropping a clothing size, even just one tighter notch of the belt...

Anyway, I rarely had efforts over 30 to 45 minutes on my trainer or other exercise bike last winter. I intend to change that, so I may need to add nutrition to meet that need. I prefer to avoid big carbs, at least till I reach a sustainable weight. At 6'1", I may see if I get under 200...

superdex

Congrats on the weight loss! it's a huge accomplishment.

from what I've learned, endurance sports need carbs. kinda captain obvious, but they do. personally, I tend to believe a 100% keto diet is fine --if you're not doing any significant exercise.

Have you talked to your doctor(s) about your nutritional needs with the cycling? seems like their input would be worthy.

One thing to look into might be fasted exercise to train your metabolism to use fat. It's not something you should do every ride, but mixing it in may help feel fresher after 20mi (because you're training your body to burn fat) https://www.cycling-inform.com/how-t...-while-cycling (google 'fasted cycling' and grab a cup of coffee)

berner

I would be skeptical of cutting carbs too much. I would look closely at the sugar content of packaged foods as there is a surprisingly high amount of added sugar to many foods, often upwards of 15% or 20%. Sugar provides few if any nutrients. Fruit, on the other hand, contains sugar but also nutrients and fiber so it is slower to digest and is a good mid-ride snack. I'm down to below my high school weight by cuting out most sugar although there is less muscle mass now that I'm a card carrying old guy. Well done on your effort to regain balance in your life. I know how hard it was for me to quit smoking.

zjrog

Back about 25 years ago, 200-400 mile weeks on the bike, I was putting down 3500 calories a day. That would kill me today.

I will look into the fasted cycling, but will skip the coffee. Never acquired a taste for the juice of the bean. But I do love tea, the stronger the better, and no sugar...

zjrog

Skeptical or not, I'm on a low carb path as part of the required diet that goes with weight loss surgery. My surgeon would have preffered to do the gastric bypass for me, but I convinced him that the gastic sleeve was a better option for me. And I understood I wouldn't lose as much weight as fast. But I also wasn't going to put myself at risk for malnutrition which is fairly common with gastric bypass. I avoid sugars as much as possible, and carbonated beverages of any sort (damn, I miss BEER!!!)...

As I am close to my retirement weight (from active duty Navy), and well under what my surgeon promised for my YEAR weight, I've begun to change my thinking about ideal weight. When I was more serious about riding, I was in the 220-230 range and felt great. But I was also running, and other activities. Running is out of the question now. But the last couple times I was under 200 pounds, I was never comfortable. So I never considered that as a possibility when I bagan this weight loss mind set. I'm not the same guy I was then, and need to plan farther ahead than this year or next. So, perhaps 200 or a few pounds either side will be more comfortable now. Not sure, I'll see. I do know I have no desire to me at my high school weight ever.

Insurance and program requirements required me to attend nutrition classes, sleep study, cardiology clearance, and a psychiatric eval. Lots of things to block me or allow me to change my mind. I looked at all this for 3 or more years before deciding to move forward. And that decision was made easier thanks to repeated injuries. And the decision was validated after getting the crap scared out of me by the cardiologist.

I do have access to a nutrionist, in the program. In fact I see her later next month for my 1 year check up. But I can chat with her before that, I will seek her opinion.

zjrog

As I looked past that link provided, on the front page for that, it shows ZERO cyclists helped since 2007... Funny...

Tulok

Great progress! I too have noticed that in my late 20’s now that I can eat my way into weight gain with astonishing ease. It’s a terrifying thing!

I’m grateful that I am able to control my caloric intake and meter my intakes before it gets to the point where most don’t return from.

Great job job on your continued experience! I know for myself, I achieve my best results when I have meditated upon exactly what I want and try to imagine it down to the last detail. It helps to know how you want to be and feel and if you can figure out why you want it, that’s great too. But I’m sure you already do this!

@246 you look better than a lot of guys! It is noticeable that you live actively.

Flip Flop Rider

very impressive weight loss

for me personally, I cannot function the way I want on low carb. I need carbs!!

Carbonfiberboy 

Yes, that's normal. There's no good reason to associate weight loss with low carb. Some people have success with that, just like with any calorie reduction diet. Here's what I know about your diet: https://www.ucsfhealth.org/education...astric_bypass/

This is not a low carb diet, it's a high protein diet, which crowds out both carbs and fat. The focus is on keeping protein content very high. They're saying max 1000 calories, 75g protein. The protein is 300 of those, so that leaves 700 for carbs and fat. I'd keep those 2 marcros about even. That would make ~35g fat, about the minimum. You have to have fat for metabolic needs. You have to have carbs for exercise. On the bike, just drink sports drinks, something like Cytomax or Heed or Endurox. Take sips every 15 minutes, so as not to overload. You can make your yogurt the vanilla sort with sugar. That'll help.

The instruction in that link to take calcium supplements is weird because they're known not to do anything, and the diet should be very high in dairy, which is known to work well.

We make a protein shake for breakfast about once a week, for 2 ordinary servings: 1/2c chocolate flavored whey protein, 1 egg, 1 banana, 1 tsp. vanilla, 12 oz. whole milk, 2 T honey, all blended well. Have to add the honey last, while the blender is running.

The link says avoid sugar and sweets, but that doesn't matter on the bike because your metabolism is totally different during exercise. The main thing is not to crowd out the protein and other nutrition with sugar or fat, but sipping a sports drink on the bike won't bother and it will keep you going.

My guess is that they say avoid rice and bread because these foods can expand in the stomach as they take on more water, not that they are carbs. Note that potatoes are just fine - they don't do that. Raw vegetables take up too much space and might irritate. Fresh fruits? Don't know.

You're long past these initial stages, so you probably have more freedom now. In any case, keep the protein high, and balance the carbs and fat. Remember, you're on a calorie reduction diet, which is not a fad diet. It works for everyone, including cyclists, if they keep it a balanced diet.

79pmooney

zjrog, a couple of thoughts: 1) (The news that can be tough to hear) Out ideal weight decreases as we age and lose muscle mass. I now can weigh less than what I raced at 40 years ago and be very healthy. Then I was at the razor edge. And 2) Consider studying the different sugars. Even before the modern formulated sugars (high fructose corn syrup and the like), our bodies react very differently to the different older "natural" sugars. Our bodies react very differently to fructose and sucrose, though very close chemically.

In my racing days, I did not eat sucrose except consciously as a pick-me-up drug but consumed all the fructose I wanted (in fruit, never as a stand alone sugar). Used honey to flavor my food (and consumed a lot of it. Still do. I keep the bees employed.) I found then and still see that sucrose causes in me a short term high and later crash with fruit and honey elevating my blood sugar, energy and mood gently to a much lower plateau and gently easing off to where I was before.

Not saying you should dive into the fruit and honey as I do. I'm a skinny guy. 160 pounds has always been my heavy ceiling. But modest amounts of the good sugars taken in natural form (dried fruit, say raisins, a whole wheat sandwich with PB and honey for longer rides might go a long ways toward better rides and better consequences after.

Another sugar I have consumed for years that is somewhat controversial - glucose. I have only consumed it in the sports drink Vitalyte (called ERG or Gookinaid 50 years ago). Like fructose, I have never seen the sugar high from it. The drink is primarily for maintaining electrolytes; the small amount of glucose is in it primarily to aid the body's absorption. Mixed 2 scoops to the waterbottle, it works very well for me for both hydration and electrolytes and is very easy to get down, in any heat and after very hard exertion.

Ben

donhaller 

Congrats on the weight loss! I really try not to look too much at this Training and Nutrition forum because of the general outlook of ketogenic diets among the cycling community. I understand how the vast majority of athletes are still using carbohydrates and sugar for fuel, and I think that's great. Like others have said what works for one guy does not for the next.

I started down the low carb path about four years ago to lose weight myself. I was 300lbs and moving too close to being pre-diabetic. I stopped eating all sugar and grains and then it gradually evolved into a true ketogenic lifestyle for me. I've been burning fat for fuel for two years now. Strict keto for most of that. Less than 20 carbs a day, some days zero carbs. I'll intermittent fast most days with a 4 to 6 hour eating window in the evening. I ride 10, 20, 30, 50, 62 or 100 miles and don't carb at all. If I think I need some nourishment I might take a couple Macadamia Nut F-Bombs or MCT oil packs for later in the ride. However, I do find that if I'm not getting enough electrolytes it will make me feel dull. If your not getting the correct amount of electrolytes or salt you will feel faded as well and probably begin cramping after mile 30 or so. Ask me how I know. Additionally, I make my own concoction of electrolyte drink from a liquid Ionic Magnesium, Cream of Tartar, and Celtic Salt. Mix it with water and put that in one of my bottles. I also will take a couple Endurolytes before and half-way into the ride. I've been doing this for some time now its working for me. I've lost 100 lbs and still losing. Slowly but surely. It's a long process but will make you feel better in the long run.

So, I think a lot of people that try a ketogenic diet and only do it for a short while or don't track their macros or don't actually measure blood ketones and blood sugar are not serious enough about becoming fat adapted and should probably stick to burning sugar. But once truly fat adapted you will be set free of the whole carb and sugar fueling regiment. Just my 2 cents.

zjrog

I snipped some of your quotes, Thank you, I might have had surgery but I've busted my ass getting here. Surgery was a tool to get me where I CAN do the rest...

I'me fortunate to work outdoors. Not always super intense, certainly not like swinging a hammer for a living. But I am also outdoors in the winter... I am far more active now than a year ago. And within constraints of a failing right knee and a still healing left ankle issue... The knee, will be replaced soon, the left was 9 years ago...

zjrog

I do have more freedom. And I catch myself now and again with bad habits creeping back in. Ironically, I have found that I do NEED a certain amount of carbs, or I stall at a given weight.




Correct on breads and rice, they do expand, but also the starches turn to sugars that aren't as readily burned... I do eat some raw veg. LOVE radishes, but there is little nutritional value. As well as pickles, they are a near perfect snack except for thoose seriously watching sodium intake. Early, I could eat fruit, as long as the skin and seeds were removed. Yeah, no grapes for me then. I eat 2 pieces of fruit a day.




I start MOST days with a protein shake, usually premixed, for convenience mainly. When I make my own I use a chocolate flavor, add a half scoop of PBFit peanut butter powder and a half banana. Sometimes just water, but usually fat free milk. I grew up on whole milk fresh from the farm, cream and all. No way could I drink that today. Nonfat took years to get used to, and now "whole" milk is too thick for my taste...




As I mentioned above, the surgery was simply a tool to get me where I CAN do it myself again. My surgeon wanted to do the gastric bypass for me, to lose more weight faster. But that would interfere with a lot of my lifestyle, and water intake since I work in a desert environement. I had other reasons for choosing the sleeve, and with reasoned explanations why I preferred this route, he agreed. I take a multivitamin twice a day. Calcium and magnesium supplements as well. Magnesium for my aging joints... I have gout, so I take gout meds, and I am taking a small dose water pill for fluid retention, but hoping for not too much longer. Not too bad for a guy of 56... Oh, I also get a biweekly T shot...




Note from my nutritionist. She is consulting with a sports nutritionist on my behalf. This was a suggestion from a PA on my surgeon's staff. This PA was MY PA before she transferred into the surgeon's office, and she is a tri-athlete...

bikebreak

I have a family member who had Gastric sleeve and is doing some exercise like weights but not endurance style cardio

The issue with carbs is the smaller stomach (the Gastric sleeve) does not hold a lot while digesting, someone with Gastric sleeve could fill up of carbs and not get the protein they need, and high carbs can cause stomach upset and emptying issues. That's what they told me

I've done some fasted rides myself, but probably not long enough to burn all the glycogen out of my body. I usually ride for speed, not endurance.

I would imagine that for the OP if you are having some minimal carbs and enough recovery time your body will rebuild the glycogen stores pretty well between rides, and as muscles get bigger they store more glycogen inside. Lift weights too.

FrenchFit 

OMG, we have to send an email to all those elite endurance athletes that are low carb, high fat adapted - "YOU HAVE IT ALL WRONG FOOLS! READ BIKE FORUM POSTS IMMEDIATELY!"

I doubt sugar is your answer, neither is carbs. High protein bars, shakes are good ideas. Quest cookies if you have a sweet tooth. First year my wife was riding post-surgery she took a bag of Fritos in case she bonked, the high salt and glycemic response would really help on long rides. Taking a break during the ride is a easy solution and smart pacing. I suspect 20 mile non-stop rides are taxing to your system right now, you may be getting ahead of your ability to metabolize anything.

I guess my wife is about six years or so post-surgery, post nay-sayers. Her weight, BMI, fitness are all great. We ride together about 100 times a year.

I ran six miles this morning (fasted). Took a ten minute break in the middle, stretched and relaxed. Ran the last half faster than the first and enjoyed it more. Really glad I stopped to smell the roses. No reason why you need to push past your comfortable level, let fitness come to you, end your work-outs with a smile.

zjrog

I'm not real sure what my answers are, I didn't look this far ahead prior to WLS. I was looking at fixing a few HUGE problems first. There will be an answer. It might take a few mistakes to firgure them out. But thats part of the fun.

rumrunn6

maybe work with what you got? meaning, maybe stick to 20 miles rides for another year? maybe increase the # of 20 miles rides you do per month? maybe ride 20 miles then take a break & do another 10 later in the day? this way you don't have to change anything in your diet?

burnthesheep

I dunno. I feel like training to increase your ride distance can be a painful deal for even skinny people.

I wasn't big at all when I started riding 3 to 4 years back. 180 to 185 lbs. It took quite a while to be able to comfortably break 20, then 30 miles.

I'd say the "fat burn" endless energy feeling of hard tempo for hours didn't come until I could routinely put in 3 hours of tempo/hard tempo without stopping and with just some water/electrolyte and a small balanced snack.

If we're talking that endless energy fat burn feeling, that takes some saddle time to get the body to adapt to. No matter how big or small you are.

Clem von Jones

I've noticed many of the electrolyte supplements have sugar in them which might cause you to bonk. That was a stumbling block for me. The trouble with eating any carbs is it prevents you from burning fat ketones for some period of time until the blood glucose is eliminated or converted to fat storage and that can take hours. If you're adapted to burning fat you should be able to do that almost indefinitely which is what paleo-style folk like the Maasi and Inuit do. If you can't do that perhaps there are hidden carbs in the food you eat causing you to bonk. Have you ever tried these ketone supplements: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=ketones&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 I haven't tried them but I've heard they might work for people who develop carb cravings. As I understand it they give you an energy boost while helping to eliminate hunger pangs.

You may already be familiar with this but there's an excellent Youtube channel called Low Carbs Down Under featuring lectures by doctors who treat fat-adapted endurance athletes. Some very successful endurance athletes are now dedicated to high-fat keto diets. They eat no carbs but can run continuously for like 72 hours. It's unreal. They say fats have increased their endurance and help keep off weight.

I agree with Don Haller's post that you should test yourself with ketone strips and a glucometer to make certain you're really ketone-adapted. There are so many hidden carbs in food these days and you'll need to eliminate them to avoid bonking, and to avoid being hungry all the time.

wolfchild

The reason why some people have low energy while doing low carb is because they get stuck in what I call a " nutritional no-mans land" ...it means that their carb intake is too low to produce enough energy but at the same time their carb intake is too high to go into ketosis and start producing energy from fat/ketones...You need to choose sides. Either go full keto which means that 80% of your calories will be from fat and the rest from protein and some high fibre carbs or just increase your carb intake and let your body start producing energy from carbs.
It's extremely easy to prevent your body from going into full ketosis when you're eating too much protein or carbs. You need to decide if you want your body to produce all it's energy from fat or carbs, and then allow your body to adept itself to your diet so it can start producing energy consistently. Don't try to juggle two different diets at the same time because it will only create confusion in your body and you will never have energy to anything.

Seattle Forrest

People who don't have a before need to avoid carbs, and eat plenty, are able to use fat and carbohydrate for energy. There's a great deal of misinformation about this and keto people often sell their diet like it's a religion.

zjrog

Excellent input, lots of info to "digest".

I may have been worried over nothing, as I had an excellent 30 mile ride Saturday. I had a protein shake prior to the ride, and had a couple bite sized pieces of my protein bars ready. had one during the 30 mile ride. Iwent with a faster group than I usually ride with and I was just fine. Once again, I am overthingking things...

Clem von Jones

Protein converts rapidly to carbs so go easy on it. Your body burns two different fuels: carbs (glucose) and ketones (fat). Carbs are converted to fat by the liver and stored in the body, but after you quit eating carbs you body eventually starts burning body fat as ketones. It takes it the better part of a day or more before the body starts burning fat ketones, but you'll derail that process if you eat any carbs. Even a sweetener mixed with electrolytes for example will cause the body to enter fat-storage mode again until blood glucose is depleted, then it burns ketones again. Some people haven't burned ketones for months or even years because they snack on carbs all day, but the human body is designed to burn primarily ketones.

That's what I learned recently and the information was a shocker to me. I'd never been taught this and developed pre-diabeties from eating carbs. The human body isn't adapted by evolution to eating carbs for prolonged periods. Ancient peoples could eat a few vegetables, tree nuts, and wild berries during the summer and this was all the carbs they had in their diet, and those summer carbs fattened them up to help survive winter. The very first people who raised and ate grain-crops in Mesopotamia and Egypt were all sick from their diet. They've studied ancient mummies and discovered all those people had diabetes and diabetes-related diseases like arteriosclerosis and heart disease.

By contrast people like the Maasi and Inuit who eat almost no carbs don't have these diseases. Inuit (once) ate whale blubber but had no arteriosclerosis from it. These people eat all kinds of animal fat but had almost no fat on their bodies because they're ketone-adapted. They get all their energy from ketones.

Ranchers fatten up their cattle for slaughter by feeding them grain, soybeans, and corn. They intentionally induce diabetes in their livestock.

Watch this lecture: