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Help me not hate tubulars!

Old 10-06-19, 09:15 PM
  #26  
RobbieTunes
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Originally Posted by shmuelyosef
I would personally support hating tubulars...haven't used them in 20 years and don't miss them at all. I have been running GatorSkins (generally 23 or 25) on my main road bike since they came out...with thinwall tubes and I'm happy with the weight and the ride. I have NO fond memories of living with tubulars and prefer carrying a spare tube rather than a spare tire.
That's not the point of the OP's post. With tape, tubulars are now a different animal. I understand GatorSkins, having had some, but I find them quite sluggish.
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Old 10-06-19, 09:35 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by jamesdak
Okay, really interesting stuff and almost would make consider pulling the tubular wheels down and riding them again. But I watched the video and read the FAQs and it sounds like if you have a flat, you have to redo the tape. Is that your experience? I really just wNt to know.
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Old 10-06-19, 09:36 PM
  #28  
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Cleaning off the old glue. Yeah, if it's really gunked up you've gotta.

Brass wheel wire brush either in a drill or a stand mount. It won't hurt the aluminum but it will rip off the glue globules and chunks.

Really that's all you need to do is get it smooth and flat before re-gluing.
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Old 10-06-19, 10:09 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Mr. Spadoni
Okay, really interesting stuff and almost would make consider pulling the tubular wheels down and riding them again. But I watched the video and read the FAQs and it sounds like if you have a flat, you have to redo the tape. Is that your experience? I really just wNt to know.
I never have. If the tape is still sticking well, I re-use it. I'm sure that's not recommended on any label.
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Old 10-06-19, 10:50 PM
  #30  
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Help you not hate tubulars? Ride the best tubulars.
Otherwise ride the nicest clinchers.
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Old 10-06-19, 11:18 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes
I never have. If the tape is still sticking well, I re-use it. I'm sure that's not recommended on any label.
Okay, that makes sense. Mfg website suggested new tape, but since flats sometimes? happen away from home, bringing along tape for a tire change seemed a bit awkward.
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Old 10-06-19, 11:19 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine
I used Wolber Liberty tires for a while. They had the tube permanently sealed inside the casing. I think it was all vulcanized together. They supplied this injector thing which was a tube of goop with a hollow needle cap type thing. You were supposed to inject a blob of the glue into the puncture in the tire, and leave a plug inside. This would allegedly patch the tire. It didn't work very well. Never had one of those 'patches' last more than a ride or two, if that. I guess it was enough to get you home at least. I suspect the modern concept is much improved now that there are effective sealants.

I think @T-Mar mentioned a while ago that this type of tire goes way way back, like to the turn of the century or something, IIRC.
That is the brand and model.
reading later on the thread, Donnely, (was Clement) has gone that way.
Tufo's going to black... Yes, cannot visually manage all black tubulars either. Although I did win one in a race long long ago, a Wobler of some type, maybe a version of a cyclocross tire with pyramid like tread, used it as a spare, it eventually made its way to a rim, then about 3 months later the bike was stolen.
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Old 10-07-19, 04:06 AM
  #33  
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Tubulars have their place but are not always the way to go, in my opinion.

I run tubulars on bikes that were intended to be fitted with tubulars. I have two old bikes, both should wear tubulars (1968 Legnano Grand Premio and 1958 Rabeneick 120d). For a while, the Legnano was fitted with 27" clincher alloy rim wheels. I later converted the wheels to 700c with clincher rims (Weinmann concave). This summer, just to see what I would see, I installed a set of tubular wheels (almost identical except for rims) on the Legnano and rode the bike, that way, for a while.

To be honest, though the tubular wheel set would be most correct for the Legnano, I choose to go with clinchers. I can't really feel much difference in ride quality, although I am not an accomplished rider, to say the least. With that in mind, for me, the only real draw back to tubulars is the cost (flat out and buy a new tire = lotsa $$), not to mention the sticky and time consuming mess for installation. Anyway, my Legnano with 700c clincher hoops and Legnano pantographed Campy high flange hubs...
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Old 10-07-19, 05:05 AM
  #34  
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Deep cleaning a chain, wrapping HB tape, lacing a wheel, installing new cables and housing or gluing a wheel, they are all time consuming and part of the C&V experience. Once you glue one two or three, it becomes pretty easy. It's just learning a new process and being clean about it.

But then some people need a stack of napkins to eat while others use one at the end of the meal as back up.
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Old 10-07-19, 06:43 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine
I used Wolber Liberty tires for a while. They had the tube permanently sealed inside the casing. I think it was all vulcanized together. They supplied this injector thing which was a tube of goop with a hollow needle cap type thing. You were supposed to inject a blob of the glue into the puncture in the tire, and leave a plug inside. This would allegedly patch the tire. It didn't work very well. Never had one of those 'patches' last more than a ride or two, if that. I guess it was enough to get you home at least. I suspect the modern concept is much improved now that there are effective sealants.

I think @T-Mar mentioned a while ago that this type of tire goes way way back, like to the turn of the century or something, IIRC.
A pneumatic tyre that was cemented to rim and had an inner tube that was totally enclosed by and bonded to the casing was known as a single tube tyre. Dating back to 1890, it was the 2nd style of four major styles of pneumatic tyres introduced at the end of the 19th century. What we call tubulars, were called double tube tyres, as the inner tube was totally enlossed by outer tube/casing. but was independent of it.

Single tube tyres were the cheapest to produce and were favoured by most USA companies during the fiercely competitive bicycle boom of the late 1890s. After the boom crashed, the parties who owned the rights to the single tube tyre went about acquiring the rights to the competing tyre styles from their struggling owners. They effectively killed off the competition in favour of the single tube tyre, as the single tube tyre brought in more profits due to their more frequent replacement.

The single tube tyre would dominate the USA bicycle industry until 1933, when Schwinn introduced the balloon tyre. However, the single tube was still popular on the USA racing scene until post World War II, when relaxation of duties introduced at turn of century to protect the domestic industry allowed double tube/tubular tyres from European companies to start appearing in the USA in quantity at reduced prices.

There were three methods to repair a single tube tyre in the 1890s: injection of glue/sealant, installing a plug or taking it to a bicycle shop, most of which had vulcanization equipment at the time. The first two weren't very effective and were used primarily for road side repairs, to be able to ride home. The latter could be almost as expensive as buying a new "cheap" tyre and there was often days of waiting due to the volume of repairs. Given the road conditions of the day, single tube tyres were lucrative for the industry, on both the repair and replacement level.

Periodically, tyre manufacturers would try to reintroduce the single tube concept. As noted, Wolber introduced the Liberty in the very late 1970s. Despite their claim, it wasn't "completely new". Nor was the repair method.

Last edited by T-Mar; 10-07-19 at 06:52 AM.
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Old 10-07-19, 08:19 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Mr. Spadoni
Okay, really interesting stuff and almost would make consider pulling the tubular wheels down and riding them again. But I watched the video and read the FAQs and it sounds like if you have a flat, you have to redo the tape. Is that your experience? I really just wNt to know.

I honestly don't know. Haven't had any flats since using it. I carry sealeant in case I do and that is my go to plan on the road right now. If it happens where I'll need to replace a tubular I'll see how "sticky" the tape is and make a decision then. Sorry I don't have a real answer.
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Old 10-07-19, 11:55 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Ronsonic
Cleaning off the old glue. Yeah, if it's really gunked up you've gotta.

Brass wheel wire brush either in a drill or a stand mount. It won't hurt the aluminum but it will rip off the glue globules and chunks.

Really that's all you need to do is get it smooth and flat before re-gluing.
+1 on brass wheel
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Old 10-07-19, 03:17 PM
  #38  
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Tubulars are a superior system. Period. Heard that recently?

Instead, terms of discussion are set by those who can't and don't. Plus those who had a bad experience forty years ago and can't quit. Defenders are supposed to defend off the back foot. Nope, not going there. Tubulars are the best.

Gluing is so hard that as a 15 year old kid it was not hard to sit down on sidewalk in front of bike shop and glue the 'tubulars not glued' to the rims with no instructions. Rode the new bike home. Fifty-two years later gluing has never once been a problem. Why does this need to be discussed endlessly? Why is it hard?

Clinchulars? Seriously? Now there's a resounding success. Sells like hotcakes. Been around for thirty-five years I know of and might have sold a few hundred by now.

The main sales pitch for clinchulars or singletubes or wacky offbrands has alway been something like "These tubulars are Not Really Tubulars". Don't ride NotTubulars. Ride tubulars.

The tubulars you can buy are infinitely superior to no longer sold tires of forty and fifty years ago. If you don't remember those - and most won't - find an old photo of an old rider with a tubular folded under the saddle. Doesn't look like that anymore. Tubulars don't fold up tight like that in 2019. Can't be done. It is different now. The old tires had a lot of virtues, they did flat constantly. They survived mostly because clinchers were pretty bad too. Tires generally are pretty darn good in current era. Ride good tires. Don't bother with slow tires or tires made to quell fears of non-existent demons. Ride good tires. Tubulars are the best tires.
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Old 10-07-19, 04:16 PM
  #39  
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I prefer tubular.
not sure if the equation is as in favor as it once was.
good tires were always expensive- clement setas and upper tier cotton tires, great tires are around but not cheap- FMB comes to mind.
the adhesive evolution I think is an issue, I could glue a tire with ease 40 years ago. Even on a fresh rim.
Today, if I have to change a tire, the assumption is maneuvering is compromised- the mod glue just does not re-tack like the old stuff. I recall changing a tire, then next day checking how well the previous glue was working and not having to do anything, just keep riding. That I think would only happen today with the added step of applying rim tape.

For the capable, tubulars are good, for everyone else- clinchers
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Old 10-07-19, 04:32 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Ronsonic
Brass wheel wire brush either in a drill or a stand mount. It won't hurt the aluminum but it will rip off the glue globules and chunks.

Really that's all you need to do is get it smooth and flat before re-gluing.
Works a charm. About a minute per wheel. No nasty solvents, no tiresome scrubbing.



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Old 10-07-19, 04:45 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by 63rickert
Can't be done. It is different now.
Can't like this?

Cinelli_Model_B 057 by iabisdb, on Flickr

Or this?

Frejus085 by iabisdb, on Flickr

Or this?

Bag 050 by iabisdb, on Flickr
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Old 10-07-19, 05:51 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Wildwood
Help you not hate tubulars? Ride the best tubulars.
Otherwise ride the nicest clinchers.
This.

I don't "reach out" for tubulars, but they are often a bargain. For example, I have picked up two sets of DA hubs laced to tubular rims for very reasonable prices in the last 6-7 months. Campy tubulars were even cheaper, but the 10-sp crowd is hoarding them right now...

The offset is that I will spend considerable time cleaning them, both the gluing surface and the rims, hubs, and spokes, and then clean/repack the hubs. When done, very nice wheels for a very long time. Longer than I will last.
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Old 10-07-19, 06:48 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by iab
Can't like this?


Cinelli_Model_B 057 by iabisdb, on Flickr

Or this?


Frejus085 by iabisdb, on Flickr

Or this?


Bag 050 by iabisdb, on Flickr
Those are some real nice results. And you know how you did it. Still does not look like what happened on autopilot in old days.

I am using a Jandd seatbag for tubulars. Either a late 70s or early 80s creation. The pattern they use now is exactly the same as original. Sized for two tubulars. Then. It would be possible to get two in there now but would require significant planning and trial and effort. BITD just put them in. I use the bag with one tire and for most purposes the bag is quite full. And to get two in there they would have to be skinnies. No way two 700x28 tubies go in. Was never a problem to carry two Campionatos. When it was possible to get two Campionatos.

I have two of those clamps shown in first photo. Might use for display purposes. For daily riding just too darn tight, worry it damages casings. Clamping a tire in there is just not what it was in old days.

Last edited by 63rickert; 10-07-19 at 06:53 PM. Reason: additional text
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Old 10-07-19, 07:14 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Mr. Spadoni
Okay, really interesting stuff and almost would make consider pulling the tubular wheels down and riding them again. But I watched the video and read the FAQs and it sounds like if you have a flat, you have to redo the tape. Is that your experience? I really just wNt to know.
You do not need to make up a new tape. For the few inches of tape you loosened to slit open the seam to access the puncture in the tube, it should IMHO stick back on the tire. I have added some supplemental tubular cement at those points, but I have also just put the tire back on the rim and inflated it. No problems, either way.

I guess it is not absolutely necessary to glue back the portion that you loosened. Intellectually it is more satisfying to do so, and I would be "more satisfied" if I could use the "correct glue" whatever that is. As far as I can tell, it should be liquid latex, and I don't intend to carry it in my underseat bag. Using it on the workbench is acceptable, to me.
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Old 10-07-19, 07:20 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by repechage
I prefer tubular.
not sure if the equation is as in favor as it once was.
good tires were always expensive- clement setas and upper tier cotton tires, great tires are around but not cheap- FMB comes to mind.
the adhesive evolution I think is an issue, I could glue a tire with ease 40 years ago. Even on a fresh rim.
Today, if I have to change a tire, the assumption is maneuvering is compromised- the mod glue just does not re-tack like the old stuff. I recall changing a tire, then next day checking how well the previous glue was working and not having to do anything, just keep riding. That I think would only happen today with the added step of applying rim tape.

For the capable, tubulars are good, for everyone else- clinchers
Is this a thing, or is it a worry? Are you saying that glueing a new tire onto a clean, degreased rim actually does not work as well as in Ye Olden Days when we had to light up a Gauloise to be able to mount a sew-up correctly, establishing the proper mindset before starting the work?
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Old 10-07-19, 07:29 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by 63rickert
Those are some real nice results. And you know how you did it. Still does not look like what happened on autopilot in old days.

I am using a Jandd seatbag for tubulars. Either a late 70s or early 80s creation. The pattern they use now is exactly the same as original. Sized for two tubulars. Then. It would be possible to get two in there now but would require significant planning and trial and effort. BITD just put them in. I use the bag with one tire and for most purposes the bag is quite full. And to get two in there they would have to be skinnies. No way two 700x28 tubies go in. Was never a problem to carry two Campionatos. When it was possible to get two Campionatos.

I have two of those clamps shown in first photo. Might use for display purposes. For daily riding just too darn tight, worry it damages casings. Clamping a tire in there is just not what it was in old days.
63Rickert, I don't think I ever did learn to fold tires correctly, glued or not. But, I'm also quite sure I never say a 28 mm tubular before about 2000 when the Challenge ParigiRoubaix in 27 mm began (I think) to be available, or whenever it was. In my old days, 1970 through about 1985, I only ever had 22 mm sew-ups, or even narrower. I also think they most commonly folded flat, or at least didn't fight me when I folded them.
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Old 10-07-19, 07:37 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by repechage
I prefer tubular.
not sure if the equation is as in favor as it once was.
good tires were always expensive- clement setas and upper tier cotton tires, great tires are around but not cheap- FMB comes to mind.
the adhesive evolution I think is an issue, I could glue a tire with ease 40 years ago. Even on a fresh rim.
Today, if I have to change a tire, the assumption is maneuvering is compromised- the mod glue just does not re-tack like the old stuff. I recall changing a tire, then next day checking how well the previous glue was working and not having to do anything, just keep riding. That I think would only happen today with the added step of applying rim tape.

For the capable, tubulars are good, for everyone else- clinchers
It also took me some time to adjust to the passing of red glue. The new glues are basically contact cement. Glue on both rim and on base tape. When you true up the tire it is real different from what we learned long ago. Too wet and the bond is less strong. Too tacky/too dry and the tire resists being moved. Move it around too much and the bond is compromised. But it always works well enough for most purposes. Were I doing mountain descents would likely be more particular. What's working in our favor is the new tires simply are straight and want to go on straight. No more making a crooked tire straight in the gluing. The good tires barely need any pre-stretch, they just go on. Once you get used to it, gluing is definitely easier and quicker and cleaner than in old days and the results are consistently good. If you are talking changing a tire on the road, well, these days you will always have to re-glue when you get home. Re-tacking as you describe it sounds like red glue getting hot and softening. That won't happen.

Looking at historic constant dollars tires are a bargain. Best deal ever was Criterium Setas for $5 but that was 1969 and direct from Othon Ochsner's hand. Last January scored Vittoria/Bontrager 29mm silk team issue at 3 for $70. Usual price paid of $50 for most good tires compares quite well with common pricing in any era.

There's no question good clinchers have become very good. For any who wish to forgo tubulars it is still possible to get a very good ride.
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Old 10-08-19, 04:15 AM
  #48  
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IMHO, the answer to the OP is this: get over it, or pay out some dosh and convert to clincher. Every tubular user eventually works out their own formula for ease of care and welfare. No single method is best other than what applies to safety and obvious technical issues. Some one mentioned a brass wheel on a drill? Yup! Blows off old, dry-hardened glue in a hurry. I carry a spare tub and a CO2 inflater in a bum bag on rides. Always stretch the tub before mounting.

I have nothing against clinchers. My Dawes Atlantis in on clinchers (a spare tube is always under the saddle) and the other 3 bikes are on tubs.
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Old 10-08-19, 04:46 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
63Rickert, I don't think I ever did learn to fold tires correctly, glued or not. But, I'm also quite sure I never say a 28 mm tubular before about 2000 when the Challenge ParigiRoubaix in 27 mm began (I think) to be available, or whenever it was. In my old days, 1970 through about 1985, I only ever had 22 mm sew-ups, or even narrower. I also think they most commonly folded flat, or at least didn't fight me when I folded them.
My memories are quite different. Never saw a tire as narrow as 22mm until 1973. They were Clement Strada 66. I was working at the shop that year and I was the one who opened the crate. Looked at those little tires and wondered what they were for. The older guys all thought the same, too narrow to be useful. Everybody else figured they just had to be fast and those tires all sold same day. It was a couple more years before the Vittoria CX were introduced. They were quite narrow and were dominant as soon as they appeared. By 1980 it seemed as if CX was the only tire.

In 70s there were still gravel streets in suburbia. A little gravel even in City of Chicago. Ride in farm country you were going to ride gravel. Road races included gravel. Even criteriums might have gravel. As a result wider tires were popular. In early 1970s the entire Clement catalog of tires could be purchased and were used. It wasn't like you could always find all the different tires, they all did appear. Paris Roubaixs and Campionato del Mondos were popular. At start of 70s plenty of racers were using those.

Even in 80s can remember the riders with sensible tires going to the front and applying some pressure as soon as first gravel section arrived. Those on 22mm tires could survive if they were good. Maroons who showed up on 19mm got shelled immediately. It got harder and harder to find those sensible tires. And gravel retreated to deep country. Racers wouldn't ride gravel. People came to the conclusion that 700x19 was normal. 19mm tires were mounted on tandems.

The old tires were just limp. When gluing they didn't have shape until you gave them shape. They flopped and twisted around however they wanted to. Part of the popularity of the Vittoria CX was that it did have at least some shape when the Clements had none. Current tires are almost like folding clinchers with stitching added. Which is a good thing. They mount straight easily and they don't flat any more often than equivalent clinchers. Possibly less because the design means the same casing has more flex as a tubular. Variety of available tires is pretty good right now, do wonder if it can be sustained. If people would stop being afraid of the superior tire we could all enjoy them. As it is who knows if they will survive.
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Old 10-08-19, 06:22 AM
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speedevil 
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I'm working on a Pinarello build now, and initially I'll run the original Mavic clincher rims with Vittoria Corsa 25mm tires. I have a set of NOS Mavic tubular rims that I was going to lace to the original hubs, but that is temporarily on hold. I used the nice tubs on my Masi build, and I have an extra set of the Vittoria clinchers. So that choice will get it on the road more quickly. I may still lace up the tubular rims for it. If I'm honest, I probably will.

And I'll tape the tubs on with the Effetto tape.

But not right now, I want to get it on the road. By the time the build is done, I'll be pushing a year and a half since I bought the bike.
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