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Help me not hate tubulars!

Old 10-08-19, 08:28 AM
  #51  
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I love tubulars. I have glued enough wheels to actually not make a big mess anymore.
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Old 10-08-19, 09:03 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by SJX426
But then some people need a stack of napkins to eat while others use one at the end of the meal as back up.
so true!

I rode tubulars in the late 70s and early 80s. I tortured myself by very stupidly equipping my touring bike with tubulars and taking a 3-month trip on it. I chose tires that were too light for the job, and there was a one-month period when I got one flat every damned day. I got really good at changing on the road and then patching, sewing, and regluing that night. The folks in the youth hostels watched in amazement. Soon after that, I gave up on tubulars.

I decided to try track racing in the summer of 2014. I built a new bike for myself and decided it was time to tolerate tubulars once again. I remember a feeling of dread as I set out to glue them on. And it went quickly and cleanly. My skill had remained for all those years. The bike has a ride that is about as supple as a rock, and I really don't know if it's because I chose bad tires (Continental Sprinters), because of the riding position, or because it's a damn track bike. I still ride it around town, and it is fun.

But there are some very nice clinchers, and I think I would do a poor job at convincing anyone to stop hating tubulars.

I still have that clippy thing for a tire under a saddle and one of those socks, too, Cannondale, I think.
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Old 10-08-19, 10:37 AM
  #53  
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Either works for me.







1976 Viscount Aerospace Pro w/ tubulars on Super Champion Mixte rims
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Old 10-08-19, 11:13 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes
I never have. If the tape is still sticking well, I re-use it. I'm sure that's not recommended on any label.
From what I read lower down on the linked page, the tape WILL NOT remain on the rim but come off with the tire. From experience using Miyata rim tape, some sticks to the rim and some to the tire. I carry a small piece of thick plastic sheet that will fit in my bag with tape wrapped about it to use on the road.
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Old 10-08-19, 11:16 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by noglider
so true!


I decided to try track racing in the summer of 2014. I built a new bike for myself and decided it was time to tolerate tubulars once again. I remember a feeling of dread as I set out to glue them on. And it went quickly and cleanly. My skill had remained for all those years. The bike has a ride that is about as supple as a rock, and I really don't know if it's because I chose bad tires (Continental Sprinters), because of the riding position, or because it's a damn track bike. I still ride it around town, and it is fun.

.
For a track bike, yes a bad choice.
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Old 10-08-19, 11:35 AM
  #56  
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Had no idea tubular clinchers were a thing.
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Old 10-08-19, 12:50 PM
  #57  
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FWIW

My first foray into tubulars was going the Tufo route..... install with the tape was easy, had no problems with flats for the 500 miles I rode them, the ride, even it not that of high end tubies, was much better than the clinchers I had on before.

My second foray I did the glue route. It was really easy and minimal mess. put the wheel in a truing stand, put the glue on and then spread with a gloved finger. for the tires I used a flux brush/glue brush. I used this technique for the install Tubular Tire Mounting Cement Gluing Adhesion by Yellow Jersey; Thoughts on a Front Wheel The tires were mid to low level challenge elite and the ride is fantastic. I can't speak to durability as I only have a few miles on them......need to get that bike out more

I am contemplating my next tubular adventure.....but need to pre buy ski tickets first
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Old 10-08-19, 12:52 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by joluja
I am hoping to gain some wisdom from this esteemed group to help me reduce my disdain for tubulars. My last three rebuilds have required tubular replacement and the long and painful glue removal, new glue application, sore hands and mess. Does it ever get better? Are there some secrets of the trade to make things easier? I would love to hear your best secrets for tubular replacement!
0) Always carry a spare tubular tire with you when you ride, along with tire irons and some electrical tape. It often means the difference between riding and walking home.
1) Tufo tape is what you want in place of glue. It goes on cleanly and quickly, and the stretching, mounting and riding can often be done the same day.
2) If you must use glue, pre-stretch your tires before application. This is normally done by mounting without adhesive on a free rim. It makes mounting to your wheel much easier.
3) Pick a single glue and stick with it, and follow the instructions on the can/tube. Use more glue if you are paranoid about roll-off.
4) It's normally best to remove large lumps of glue and crust fillers from spoke holes, but it is not always necessary to remove all the old glue. If the old stuff on the rim is smooth and in good shape it should serve as a good base for a new application.
5) If you have to remove all of the old glue, use a wire brush and a drill, or get a bench grinder with a wire brush attachment. Two wheels worth of glue removal should be a 30 minute job.
6) Buy tubulars that are repairable. This is usually the case for Conti Sprinter Gatorskins and hardly ever the case for anything made by Vittoria.
7) Always keep 2-3 tubular tires on hand as spares, along with 2-3 rolls of Tufo tape or tubes of adhesive. Repair flatted tubies during hockey season or when you have lots of free-time.
8) Get or make a tubular tire repair kit. This will necessarily include a razor blade, some heavy duty nylon thread, several manual sewing needles, a seam ripper, a patch kit and rubber adhesive. Ask a person that sews what those items are if you're not familiar with them.
9) When repairing tubular tires, it is important to only remove as much base tape as absolutely necessary. This allows for re-use of the same base tape.
10) Base tape can be easily damaged. If it is, and you have to replace a section, you will need to use material identical to what base tape is already there, or you risk uneven inflation of the tire.
10) Use Barge Yellow adhesive (the old formula) for re-mounting base tape or (alternatively) black formula Shoe Goo. Do not use water-based latex adhesive, as it takes far too long to dry.
11) Re-use the old holes when re-sewing the casing back together. It's much easier than having to push the needle through fabric and rubber.
12) Twill or bias tape (available at the fabric store) can be used as replacement base tape, provided it is used uniformly and not as patch material. All other base tape will have to go.
13) In an emergency, it is often possible to seal surface holes in tubular tires, using super glue (cyanoacrylate adhesive). Vittoria PitStop can also work well, provided you carry multiple cans of the stuff in your saddle bag.
14) Effeto Mariposa latex sealant works well if you are trying to seal up small holes, or prevent serious leaks out in the wilderness (cyclocrossers take note!). The sealant should be used for road training and for off-roading on tubular tires.
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Old 10-08-19, 02:14 PM
  #59  
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@kunsunoke, that's a great list of practices. I used to practice most of them. I learned about waxed dental floss way back then, and I still use it. It's very strong and doesn't rot. I never got good at putting base tape on. If I need to, I'll do as you said.

If the above practices are not worthwhile to you, then tubulars are not for you.
@CV-6, what is a good tire for a track bike? My local track is ripply asphalt without a proper foundation, so it's a very rough track.
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Old 10-08-19, 09:03 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by noglider
@CV-6, what is a good tire for a track bike? My local track is ripply asphalt without a proper foundation, so it's a very rough track.
If you are going to ride the bike around town as you described, I would not invest in any good track tubulars. And before condemning your choice of tires, I should have asked for more information. I am sure you know track bikes by character are stiff and are meant to be used on a prepared smooth(er) surface. If your track is as bad as I think you are saying, ain't a tire in the world that is going to give you a supple ride. The only alternative I might think of is a wider tire running lower pressure.(which goes against most track logic). Veloflex, Vittoria, and the like have some nice 25mm and 28mm and if you dig around you can find them relatively cheap. I got a pair of Veloflex not long ago for right at $100. Sometimes there are used track tubulars on eBay. I saw a set of Vittoria pista tires for under $75 a while back.

Your track sounds like the St Louis velodrome not long ago. But the city and local people worked together to get it refinished properly. I don't think they call it Mr. Bumpy Face any more.
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Old 10-08-19, 11:32 PM
  #61  
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How to not hate tubulars.
1. Get good ones.
2. Get good at gluing.
3. Don't get flats.
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Old 10-09-19, 11:18 AM
  #62  
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I live in the past. As much as possible. Will go ride a 70 year old bike in an hour. But some stuff from the current era does work.

Sealant fixes flats for tubulars. Any small puncture is easily closed. Some bigger holes are closed even when you expect the worst. There is simply no need ever again to open up a tubular and patch for most small problems. Bigger slices that need a boot you still have to unstitch and re-stitch. Stop and think about that. Do you trust your boot patches? Have you had boot patches that thump thump thump until you toss the tire? For myself I'm not doing the boot unless it is a fairly new tire with lots of life left. Were I still racing or if there were mountains nearby it would be a rare tire that would get a boot attempt. Some of same applies to clinchers. The big slices on clinchers you may not wish to boot.

Panaracer sealant. One ounce for skinnies if you still use those. Two ounces for CX tires. One point five ounces for 28-30mm tires. Stays wet. Will last life of tire if you ride that tire. Makes tubulars hold air almost as if there was a butyl tube in there.

About the only reason to ever use cheap tubulars is you have a venerable PX-10 or similar that could go back into service right now if fresh tires were glued. And you're not quite sure if you want to bother. And you expect that bike will get only a little service. Otherwise Rallys and Yellow Jersey threefers and Contis (below Sonderklasse) and Tufos are not worth the hassle. Just get good clinchers. By the way those non-serviceable Vittorias did exist, current production has separate inner tube and functional stitching and repairs like any other.
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Old 10-09-19, 11:42 AM
  #63  
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I actually had my first flat with a tubular a few weeks ago. A good size gash that ruined the tire. I switched out tires and was on my way much faster than with a clincher and if it had been a clincher, I do not think I would have been able to ride on at all.
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Old 10-09-19, 01:04 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by noglider
@kunsunoke, that's a great list of practices. I used to practice most of them. I learned about waxed dental floss way back then, and I still use it. It's very strong and doesn't rot. I never got good at putting base tape on. If I need to, I'll do as you said.

If the above practices are not worthwhile to you, then tubulars are not for you.
@CV-6, what is a good tire for a track bike? My local track is ripply asphalt without a proper foundation, so it's a very rough track.
check these out..challenge elite pro .... https://www.probikekit.com/bicycle-t...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

amazing ride on my 84 miyata..... not enough miles to say how durable. removable valve...

not sure for track but probably better overall than what you have
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Old 10-10-19, 05:20 AM
  #65  
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When I converted from 3speed "racer" bike to a true 10 speed, I bought an extra set of wheels with tubulars, BITD - sew ups. For general riding I used the clinchers, when I went for a serious ride, swapped for the sew ups. This is in the late 60's, early 70's.

I am in the process of getting tublar sets for each "race" bike I have. May take awhile but that is the direction I am going. Just like most acitvities, like riding a bike, it comes back to you over time.

I must say again, the Vittoria G+ tires are incredibly good to ride on. In fact they ride better at 130psi than 110psi or less. And they are clinchers.
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Old 10-10-19, 07:48 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by CV-6
If you are going to ride the bike around town as you described, I would not invest in any good track tubulars. And before condemning your choice of tires, I should have asked for more information. I am sure you know track bikes by character are stiff and are meant to be used on a prepared smooth(er) surface. If your track is as bad as I think you are saying, ain't a tire in the world that is going to give you a supple ride. The only alternative I might think of is a wider tire running lower pressure.(which goes against most track logic). Veloflex, Vittoria, and the like have some nice 25mm and 28mm and if you dig around you can find them relatively cheap. I got a pair of Veloflex not long ago for right at $100. Sometimes there are used track tubulars on eBay. I saw a set of Vittoria pista tires for under $75 a while back.

Your track sounds like the St Louis velodrome not long ago. But the city and local people worked together to get it refinished properly. I don't think they call it Mr. Bumpy Face any more.
Bigger also goes against track bicycle clearances. While you can play around a bit with rear wheel position to increase clearance, I've owned some C&V track frames that wouldn't be able to handle a 28mm on the front without the tyre rubbing the crown.
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Old 10-10-19, 09:15 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
Is this a thing, or is it a worry? Are you saying that glueing a new tire onto a clean, degreased rim actually does not work as well as in Ye Olden Days when we had to light up a Gauloise to be able to mount a sew-up correctly, establishing the proper mindset before starting the work?
Changing a tire on the road was easy way back, the Red Clement glue (or copies) took so long to dry out that it readily re-tacked.
The new adhesives are essentially contact adhesive as stated elsewhere, I work with that stuff periodically all day, There is a rhythm to it, but I have no "re-bond" expectations when changing a tire today.
Yes, if the replacement tire has a layer of adhesive, there will be an increase in friction between the tire and the rim that will help a small amount, allow one to ride home, but if one gets a flat 10 miles into a 50 mile ride...
It becomes a bad equation to not do something to get the tire to bond. That has changed the equation on tubular utility.

I have tried a number of clinchers, some are decent, but I still feel more in control with a well mounted tubular. Four plus decades of feedback, and one just has expectations on how tires provide feedback when turning and descending.
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Old 10-10-19, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
Changing a tire on the road was easy way back, the Red Clement glue (or copies) took so long to dry out that it readily re-tacked.
The new adhesives are essentially contact adhesive as stated elsewhere, I work with that stuff periodically all day, There is a rhythm to it, but I have no "re-bond" expectations when changing a tire today.
Yes, if the replacement tire has a layer of adhesive, there will be an increase in friction between the tire and the rim that will help a small amount, allow one to ride home, but if one gets a flat 10 miles into a 50 mile ride...
It becomes a bad equation to not do something to get the tire to bond. That has changed the equation on tubular utility.

I have tried a number of clinchers, some are decent, but I still feel more in control with a well mounted tubular. Four plus decades of feedback, and one just has expectations on how tires provide feedback when turning and descending.
What holds a tubular on the rim is both glue and the clamping force that comes from inflating the tire. The tire expands when inflated and that holds the tire tight to rim. Old dried glue on the rim that no longer makes a bond still provides friction. Clement red glue dried quite dry (eventually), only ways I know to get it soft enough to make it sticky again would be heat or solvent. Solvent is not going to happen out on the road. Only way to get it hot would be to ride where it is very very hot or hard braking on a descent. Of course at the start of that descent the tire is still loose. If you ever got away with that it was because the clamping force of inflation was high and friction against rim was good.

Red glue is gone because the important ingredients were gutta percha and/or balata. Those are just not in commercial use any longer. Your endodontist needs very small quantities of gutta percha and there's a supply chain for that, you just can't buy a carload of the stuff.

Changing a flat on the road it is important to inflate the tire hard. There's a fashion currently for inflating tubulars as low as you can go, that doesn't work for flats. After changing a flat do not jump in a hard charging pack of Senior 1s and Pros. Be sensible coming off the mountain. The tire is not coming off easily. Most are not ever going to push that hard after flatting. The only real risk is that the spare is leaking air too. If very nervous it might make sense to stop and check the pressure or confirm the valve is still straight. If very nervous it would also be possible to bring glue along on a ride. The new stuff is, as agreed, contact cement and most of the bond happens in moments. It could get messy gluing roadside but for anyone who worries a lot it would be possible.

Tubulars are a good system because they don't have to be perfect. My method of gluing is just obviously superior to yours or anyone elses but it does not much matter. All the methods work well enough. It is very hard to get it hopelessly wrong. Myself I've violated the rules and done 35mph in the pack on a spare tire. Tire was not re-tacked on arriving home. In 52 years of using tubulars the incidents of witnessing a tire roll off are low single digits. Never on my own bike. Pretty sure those who did lose a tire were doing something egregious and ridiculous. It's a safe system and it is necessary to go all the way to ridiculous and beyond to have a failure.
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Old 10-10-19, 12:42 PM
  #69  
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Accumulating old tubulars is part of the C&V experience. I often ride tubulars three and four decades old. Use with full confidence but when they blow, not worth repairing and I toss them. I've done rapid descents and hard cornering... no biggie.

Funny, just the other night on a ride I ran over a large head capscrew on the roadside and it took out the rear tubular. Rarely do I chance it but figured since it was planned a shorter ride, hadn't bothered with a spare. Anyways, I was able to ride home (though very slow) and lightly by elevating off the saddle. No harm to the wheel.
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Old 10-10-19, 01:40 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by repechage
Changing a tire on the road was easy way back, the Red Clement glue (or copies) took so long to dry out that it readily re-tacked.
The new adhesives are essentially contact adhesive as stated elsewhere, I work with that stuff periodically all day, There is a rhythm to it, but I have no "re-bond" expectations when changing a tire today.
Yes, if the replacement tire has a layer of adhesive, there will be an increase in friction between the tire and the rim that will help a small amount, allow one to ride home, but if one gets a flat 10 miles into a 50 mile ride...
It becomes a bad equation to not do something to get the tire to bond. That has changed the equation on tubular utility.

I have tried a number of clinchers, some are decent, but I still feel more in control with a well mounted tubular. Four plus decades of feedback, and one just has expectations on how tires provide feedback when turning and descending.
Man I miss Clement. I had a big stash but it's long gone now. The nice thing about Clement red glue was that if it got hot, it would actually remelt enough to glue the tire on almost as well as a fresh glue job. I remember a few times after flatting on summer ride, I'd get home and find the spare was as stuck to the rim as if I'd glued it the night before. I always assumed the stuff was made from some natural resin like pine pitch. The cost associated with that may be the main reason this type of tubular glue has died out. BITD Vittoria glue was similar, but more of a brownish red color.

Modern contact cement type glues go way back too. Some of my friends used Fastak. (SP?) Panaracer glue was pretty much like modern glue, and so was Continental glue when it came out in the early 80s. I never used those on my own bike, but I did use them on customer's bikes if requested back in my wrenching days.
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Old 10-10-19, 03:44 PM
  #71  
repechage
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3M Fast-tak 8031 (old part number) new has more digits in front. The 8001 is the WRONG stuff- similar name.
The problem is that the adhesive has a different formula than 40 years ago. Lower VOC.

In Southern California it is worse right now, a 3M adhesive remover (not as good as other types -same mfg just not for California) is no longer available. I have a quart left...
I don't know what I am going to do. We use about a gallon a year. Everything is moving to acetone based, won't work.
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Old 10-10-19, 03:45 PM
  #72  
repechage
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Originally Posted by crank_addict
Accumulating old tubulars is part of the C&V experience. I often ride tubulars three and four decades old. Use with full confidence but when they blow, not worth repairing and I toss them. I've done rapid descents and hard cornering... no biggie.

Funny, just the other night on a ride I ran over a large head capscrew on the roadside and it took out the rear tubular. Rarely do I chance it but figured since it was planned a shorter ride, hadn't bothered with a spare. Anyways, I was able to ride home (though very slow) and lightly by elevating off the saddle. No harm to the wheel.
Tire-Alert for the good ones to have repaired.
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Old 10-11-19, 07:28 AM
  #73  
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Not my experience

I commuted 150 miles a week on tubulars, 30 miles there and back for ten years. City riding and countryside at 22-24 mph average. I tried every tub and every form of goo and even used 100 dollar tubulars.
No goo I ever used could withstand 100 psi of tire pressure when the next good pothole or a few hours came along.
Sewing up a repair compromises the tubs much vaulted superior roundness and I have sewed hundreds - so I'm pretty good at it.
In the end I converted all my road bikes(6 Campag hub / French Super wheelsets) from tubs except my two 1973 Colnagos Supers and a Eddie Meryx - but I never commute on them.
No matter how much I paid for tubulars my experience was they puncture just as often as clinchers, wear out as fast and are 10 times more expensive to run.
I'm glad to hear everyone else's experience was the opposite of mine.

Last edited by Johno59; 10-11-19 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 10-11-19, 02:30 PM
  #74  
jerry moos
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I have been buying Tufos exclusively for years for bikes with tubular rims. Even if you don't like their tires, their mounting tape is the way to go. Infinitely easier, faster and cleaner than tire cement. Mounting or changing a tubular with Tufo tape is about comparable in time and effort to changing a tube with clincher. Plus you don't need tire levers or any other tool.

Jerry Moos
Houston, TX
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Old 10-11-19, 03:23 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Johno59
I tried every tub and every form of goo


No goo I ever used could withstand 100 psi of tire pressure when the next good pothole or a few hours came along.
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