RT

No more - no more, fakin' it. Name the song and the year.

Fitment has been a difficult journey for me. Riding everything from a standard geo Fuji 58cm to a 53.5cm relaxed geo Trek-like frame, several stem lengths and angles, saddle settings...I am still a bit uncomfortable. The problem is my neck and hands. It could be anything from my Jell-O core to too much drop. It is not a serious issue, but it is an issue.

To keep this brief, I will be going for a fit at the LBS soon, but in the meantime have alleviated the problem somewhat by un-flipping it. All bikes look better with a more aggressive angle on the stem IMHO, but the un-flip has really helped in the two days since doing it. I believe I have the right size frame and stem, and started with the saddle rule of three o'clock, kneecap/plumb bob/bisect pedal axle and tuned fore/aft to my comfort level.

There are many other factors that can better adjust bike fit, but un-flipping the stem, as ugly as it looks to me, makes my ride better. It is impossible to include all possible known remedies without making this thread TLDR, but that's the point of the question: Anyone else have the same issues or had the same results with the un-flip? Any other recommendations outside of a pro fit?

BykOfALesserGod

I do shoulder, upper arm and upper back exercises. They help.

baj32161

At 52 years old, I find that I am flipping my stem up at the start of the season and flipping it down later on in the season, and I find that I am leaving it up longer. My comfort means more to me than asethetics at this stage of my life.

svtmike

Depends mostly on the length of the head tube for me.

On my 61cm TriCross, Roubaix, and Secteur, the stem is flipped down.

On my 58cm Kaffenback commuter (shorter HT than any of them) it's flipped up.

Gran Fondo

Congrats, RT. Congrats on ignoring the masses and doing what is right FOR YOU! It doesn't matter how it looks. If it is uncomfortable, you can't ride long. I tried posting a picture of my bike with the stem flipped up on the 'hot-or-not' thread and was ridiculed for it. But guess what? I could probably ride over any of those guys. Just ask any of the ex-racers I ride with regularly

If the looks a flipped up stem really start to bother you, even though it's comfortable, try raising the stack and un-flipping it. At the same time, it sounds like a shorter stem might be needed for you. Hands often go numb from reaching to far for the hoods, thus putting too much upper body weight on them.

Ride long and propser

datlas 

I agree you should do what feels right.

And generally, you may have to sacrifice a little bit of comfort for speed, and vice versa.

shadoman

DAVID NAUGHTON
"Makin' It" 1979

rpenmanparker 

OP, compared to an old fashioned quill stem that was truly horizontal, all modern stems look crappy in either position. That is the compromise that had to be made in order to adopt threadless headsets. The stem is one area of bike fit where you just have to do what you have to do. Modern stems only come in 10 mm increments and the flip is worth about 5 mm of forward reach back and forth. So it is clear that the flip is intended to split the difference between successive stem sizes. If you have the luxury of an uncut or over tall steerer tube and can make it the exact length you need, and you will fit the stem reach in the low angle position, you can have the stem to look as good as possible. But it is all about fit, so if that is not the case, screw the looks and go for comfort. Don't let anyone tell you different.

Robert

FLvector

Having a proper fit by an experienced fitter should put you in the position that is not only more comfortable for the longer rides, but a position that allows you to deliver more power. Many try to fit themselves or ask advice from more experience friends, but sometimes the advice is no good. Go to a fitter with a good reputation and you'll be happy with the outcome. The fitter might make several adjustments such as saddle height, fore/aft, cleat position, stem angle/length, etc. Let us know how the fitting session goes. Of course, working on the core and more time in the saddle helps also.

Gran Fondo

That is not entirely true. You're neglecting the effect that the steerer tube angle has, not to mention stems come in various angles. The reach can vary more than the 10mm increment if you're talking about a +/-17 stem on, say, a 73 degree steerer.

rpenmanparker 

Yes, of course, severe angles will cause larger "flipping" differences as will longer stems. Confining our attention to the common stems used by roadies, +/- 6 or 7 deg and the most common head tube angles of 72-74 deg, the flip is worth about 5 mm on a 100 mm stem or at least can be considered to split the difference between two stems of successive sizes. Since the discontinuation of the in-between sizes, the flip of the "road" stem is the closest we can come to the 5 mm differentials. Not perfect, but some help. Thanks for the clarification.

david58

I had originally flipped my stem, but the LBS at my fitting put a shorter and higher angle stem on the bike, and I went to compact bars. Combined with the 36 spoke wheels I put on last fall, I have just about achieved UNcool on my BMC. But it fits me and rides great.

Andy_K 

When I went in for a fit the guy measured my flexibility and figured out the angle that my back/hips were willing to bend and so on, then he took a look on the video screen and drew a line showing where I should be able to reach. That didn't work for me, so I ended up with higher bars and a very unflipped stem, to the tune of 26 degrees.

I've given it some thought and my conclusion is that aside from flexibility there's a key issue of balance. Once you have the saddle fore/aft position set that gives you the point around which you have to balance your weight. Your hips will be behind that point but you'll be leaning past it. If you're carry a lot of upper body weight, the bars are going to have to be higher or closer. Gravity doesn't care how pro you want to look and balance is balance. With a strong core you might be able to hold your weight off your hands when you're a little tipped forward but in general something has to hold you back.

RT

This may sound crazy, but I had a dream last night that I was leaning on my bars after the flip (and while riding) like I used to lean on the BAR and suck down my beer. Manifestation of a more comfortable ride in the dream world.

I rode into work (10 mi.) this morning, and the difference was noticeable. I'll get used to the up-slant. What really got me thinking about this was how comfortable that dude looked in the road bike trick vid that someone recently posted. He looked more comfy in the drops than I do on the hoods.

EDIT: Well done, shadoman. Disco was on the way out and ABC was trying to build a sitcom off of Saturday Night Fever. There was fail written all over that idea, but the song was catchy. Ellen Travolta was even part of the cast.

DaveSSS 

KOP often places the saddle too far forward and places too much weight on the hands. The LBS cure for this it to make a second mistake and raise the bars. Even in my late 50's I've ridden with a saddle to bar drop in the 9-11cm range and not experienced discomfort.

Neck strengtheing exercises can help. Clasp your hands behind you head, lean your head forward, then apply resistance with your hands as you slowly bring your head back up. Do 5 reps, several times a day. In a week of two, your neck or shoulder discomfort may be gone.

Ferrous Bueller

I've found that yoga works well for hamstring and lower back flexibility. I've also found the classes often to be full of startlingly fit women.

RT

In my experimenting, the saddle has gradually moved closer to the bars. I love my saddle, but the comfrot zone was too far back, which I thought was causing my neck issues. Having ridden my commute hundreds of times, and average about 15.5-16 mph, this morning averaged 16.9 (post-unflip). I'd say that is significant. I have a couple more millimeters I can afford to move forward without placing the rest of my fit at risk. Thanks for all of the recommendations so far.

Especially you, Bueller

DaveSSS 

If the saddle is moved back 1cm, the stem may also need to be 1cm shorter. When you unflipped the stem, it moved up and closer to you.

RT

Yes, that makes sense. I build my bikes, but this one has been particularly hard to dial in. The 53.5cm/90mm stem road bike fits almost as well now as the 57cm (different geo) 100cm stem cross/1x9. I lowered and forwarded<?> the saddle a little (within reason to maintain fitment) and the ride home at lunch felt like a bit better. Bike felt understandably smaller, but better. Maybe relaxed is not the right setup for me.

The build - only diff is now there are 105 5700 levers and the stem is flipped up. I sort of miss the how substantial the tomahawk levers were...

DaveSSS 

I sometimes forget that those using standard reach bars and Shimano levers may have as much as 2cm more reach than my Easton EC90-SLX3 bars with Campy levers, using the same stem length. Even with a short torso and the saddle relatively far back, I can use a 110mm stem.

Ferrous Bueller

^On my most recent build, I found it frustrating how difficult it can be to get reach and drop numbers for different brands. A 2cm variance in either dimension yields such a different bar.

RT

Agreed on the bar comments. I always shop for compact bars, and anything over 79mm is too long for me. It may come to replacing the seatpost to a zero setback (there are a lot of threads popping up on fit, and this was mentioned). It is about the only thing I have not tried, but think I am on the right path with the most recent lowering of the saddle and fore movement of the saddle.

DaveSSS 

You shouldn't be moving the saddle to correct a reach problem.

RT

Saddle placement is only part of the equation. It was too far back to begin with. As all other things bike, be it cleat position, reach, saddle height, there are starting guidelines. I am stretching those guidelines to their limits without altering my pedal stroke in a negative way. The trouble I have is that my saddle is too far forward on the rails, and the seatpost clamp is setback rather significantly. A zero setback would allow me a little more wiggle room for fine tuning the fit.

Coincidentally.

JamieElenbaas

Here's more free advice. Have you tried to tip the nose of your saddle up a few degrees? Just looking at that photo makes my arms hurt. On second look, perhaps rotating the bars up a hair is in order as well.
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