tomato coupe

F.I.S.T certification must be pretty good stuff if confers the ability to correct someone's fit without seeing them on a bike.

tgot 

Hi. I can't help but wonder whether that 1 hour was moving time, or elapsed time. If you rode for an hour, but had 5+ minutes of stopped breathing recovery, that's a pretty big fraction.

(Disclosure: I'm fat, slow, lazy and ignorant. But I measure things professionally. I thought that the people educated and experienced about fitness at this level might give better advice if they knew the answer.)

aplcr0331

Do not. I repeat...DO NOT do any pulls in the flats on the way to the rollers. Ever. Sit in. All you’re doing with your damn 4 W/kg is towing those climber nerds-the ones built like 7th grade girls-to the base of the selection so they can shellac you with their superior power to weight ratios. Don't. Pull.

At the start of the rollers make your way to the front. But...DON’T PULL! and then sag climb. With fresh legs because....you didn’t pull on the way did you!?...you might have a chance to keep up.

Good luck!

and for ****s sake don’t take a goddamn pull.

rubiksoval

Wutttttt?

That's terrible advice.

aceSSone

Why have you tried it? Do you slide back in the saddle to get more power when you climb?
The farther back the saddle, the more muscle you can use. The power stroke starts sooner.
You get a better saddle anchor to push from. Center of gravity is more aligned to the power stroke.

What specific reasoning do you have to say that?

aceSSone

It doesn't have anything to do with FIST

Its experience, helping people to climb hills they couldn't climb before.

You do fits by site? What lets you do that? Experience? Rider interview?
I asked a question, and made a suggestion. What did you do? He could move his saddle in 5 minutes and see if it works or not.
Whats your problem?

rubiksoval

Because you're making assertions based on knowing absolutely nothing about his position.

Maybe he needs the exact opposite of that!

In addition, your entire premise is ridiculous! Your performance on a bike isn't restricted by how much muscle you use, but by how efficiently your body uses oxygen to fuel working muscles. In fact, scooting your seat "all the way back" may be (and most likely is) substantially slower because then your position is such that you sit much more upright.

Have I tried it? Absolutely yes. That and KOPS ensured I was about as slow as possible until I wisened up to the fact that I could run shorter cranks, push my seat much further forward, and get my front end much lower. The result? I now go much faster at the same wattage.

So yeah, terrible advice. And now you've added terrible reasoning to your terrible advice.

rubiksoval

Clearly it doesn't have anything to do with FIST. Pretty much the opposite of FIST.

aceSSone

Ok, smart guy what does FIST recommend as a starting saddle position?

LAJ

Let's be careful, folks.

aceSSone

He's a cat 5, I'm thinking he has the cardio and fuel worked out. After all, he stays with riders until the hills. When he needs the power in the rollers he can't get it to the pedals. Usually, that means physiology is tied up and cant get power to the pedals. With today's frame geometry and following articles of pros moving their saddles forward to get lower aero I thought he might give it a shot. Why is it TRI riders pass you on the flats and then you pass them back on the hills? Tri riders forward position on the bike prevents them from having a lot of power to climb with.

Greg Lemond wrote "The Complete Book of Cycling" and stated during his cycling clinics riders couldn't get in the proper position if the seat tube angle was greater than 73°, (page 132). Most bikes today don't have 73° seat tubes. They (mfrs) are more interested in tight race geometry which means 74° seat tubes it gets worse the smaller they go, it also depends on size and manufacturer. Just look at their geometry charts. The position is related to the BB. When they stand the seat tube up, they also move the BB back. A lot of ppl don't take frame geometry into account. They're more worried about brand status.

Keith Bontrager, frame builder wrote an article called The Myth of KOPS. When he builds custom frames, he centers the rider center of gravity over the down pedal power stroke.
The position I describe pretty much does just that.

rubiksoval

Oh?

You should stop making posts based on nothing more than your imagination and ridiculous assertions. You sound really silly.

rubiksoval

Why don't you head on over to slowtwitch and ask Dan himself rather than peddling your assertions over here with a F.I.S.T. line in your signature. Maybe start with his latest thread and the accompanying article. Might be illuminating for you.

tomato coupe

Experienced bike fitters can divine the strengths and weaknesses of a rider from nothing more than their online username, and provide accurate fit parameters based on their FTP and average power. It's a gift.

aceSSone

You should stop trolling people who are trying to help with suggestions.
I present ideas based on facts you present attitude based on your thin sliver of what you think you know and your ego.

rubiksoval

You don't have facts. You have incorrect opinions and assertions that you pander as facts, but they aren't facts. Hence your regressions to petty insults and and irrelevant tangents.

Actual facts stand on their own.

Your suggestions are awful. Actual useful suggestions have been made. Go read them and learn something.

HTupolev

There are a few contributing factors, but by far the largest reason is that an aerobar TT/Tri posture is way more aero than a drop-bar road posture, so a triathlete might pass you on the flats even if they're a significantly weaker cyclist.

aceSSone

Dan, during instruction, says its 10% of saddle height. What cha got?

rubiksoval

I definitely don't have imaginary math!

aceSSone

Saddle height is measured from a single point on the BB to the saddle. When the saddle is moved fore or aft, from that single point it's distance from the BB changes. So if you move the saddle back the distance from the BB is greater, which means you have to lower it to the pre measured distance to match the original height. There's no math to it just simple geometry, fore thought and logic.

tomato coupe

That's pretty funny.

canklecat

During interviews in recent years LeMond acknowledged that much of what he was taught, believed and, in turn, taught to others didn't necessarily turn out to be optimal or even correct. That includes frame design, crank length and other factors that go into the ideal fit and energy transfer.

Greg has always been big on data and evidence, so when data showed the old Conventional Wisdom was wrong, he adjusted to the new CW.

aceSSone

What conventional wisdom was he talking about? that's a pretty broad term. This is just my guess, but I bet Greg's position, if above stmt is true, changed when he discovered mfg rules concerning toe overlap and partner mfg's designs of his branded bikes.

Anyway, So why do manufacturers make small bikes with steeper seat tube angles and larger bikes with shallower seat tube angles if steeper seat tube angles are supposed to be better? All of Cervelo's road bikes have 73° seat tubes. Are they doing something wrong? Maybe they are doing something right? Touring bikes have shallower seat tubes for comfort, they provide more suspension. Bikes are a commodity, mfgs want to sell them, part of that is "pitching the sale", in the case of racing road bikes it's "tight race geometry", which in my opinion is a detriment to unknowing smaller riders where mfgs stick to the sales pitch and not the customer.

A mfg consultant who will remain nameless, says mfg's are afraid of the consumer product safety commission and the Fed's toe overlap requirement. Mfgs move the BB back to create more distance between the pedal and the front wheel, but to make room for the rear wheel, they rotate the seat tube forward, creating the steeper angle and a more rearward position of the BB under the rider. They don't have to do that on the larger bikes for obvious reasons.

Pizzaiolo Americano 

Please explain.

HTupolev

The largest reason behind shallow seat tubes on touring bikes is that users, on average, choose to fit them more reclined than road racing bikes.

If you want your seatpost to provide oodles of suspension, you want to either give it a ton of extension, or rotationally isolate it from the seatstays a la Trek IsoSpeed. As bicycle categories go, touring bikes have if anything been fairly resistant to making the top tubes all that non-horizontal, and they never drop their seatstays.