unworthy1

Just as oneclick says but with metric tubing (I think the very slight fractionals are due to paint and not big enough to indicate Imperial tubing) and the NDS cup a standard RH thread I think you may have a FR frame, here. Was there a lockring on the NDS cup? If so a pic of that will be another good clue

AnonymousPython

Got the fork out and found some information.

unworthy1

Whoever built this really went in for stamping numbers! From what I can make out the numbers on the forkends do not match with those on the dropouts, correct? Yet I think most likely these are still of a frameset and belong together, but just due to the common style(s). Also cannot make out what the stamps are on the steerer but these also seem different to any other on other surfaces, can you note what those numbers are (or zoom in closer)? The one other detail that would be clinching is if the tips of the fork blades ALSO have the pointy treatment seen on the stay ends (on DOs) but sometimes the forks get built by an apprentice in the shop while the "master" builds the frames.

AnonymousPython

The numbers I can make out on the steerer are: 22 1871 22 274

Also, I am not exactly sure what this is: "The one other detail that would be clinching is if the tips of the fork blades ALSO have the pointy treatment seen on the stay ends (on DOs) "

Thanks for your help!

unworthy1

note in this close-up of the dropout how the ends of the stays are pointed where attached to the DO:

Now compare to this close-up of the forkend and notice that the fork blade tip is more rounded:

unworthy1

Those numbers don't seem to be repeated anywhere else on the frame (either side of the DOs) or elsewhere on the fork (either side of forkends)!
So... to make a politically incorrect leap to an unfounded conclusion, I'm going to guess anyplace that does this much numbering can't be France, has to be Switzerland!

juvela

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another CH producer who employed the pointed stay ends is Tigra

this photo gives a closeup of the chain stay end on a cycle identified by its owner as a 1979 Jaguar model -




here is the only Tigra catalogue have been able to locate. unfortunately it is from the 1970's so about fifteen years later than subject frame:

https://veloklassiker.ch/bilder/tigr...kt-70er-jahre/

cetainly do not wish to assert an identifiaction. mention it only as a possible avenue of investigation.

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for readers with an interest in CH produkt these sites is a wonderful resource for catalogues of yesteryear covering both cycles and parts/accessories -

https://veloklassiker.ch

https://k-i-n-g.ch/en/swiss-bicycle-catalogs

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minor note -

since it seems to have been determined that frame made to metric standard this eliminates the possiblity of an AT origin...

...but does bring in the possiblity of an ES origin...

there were also a few Walloon constructors who built to metric standard
onesuch was A.S. Thor

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btw - those of us with headplate collections might wish to check our holdings for 48mm verticals

am away from mine this week but will have a gander at them once back

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AnonymousPython

Is this normal? The drop outs are larger in the front than the rear? How can I find a rear wheel that will fit between the dropouts with the hub and rear cassette? I tried with all of my other bike's wheels and none will not fit in such a tight space.

juvela

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original spacing was likely 120mm rear and 96mm front

it may be camera angle but in photo it appears fork could benefit from an alignment check on a fork jig

there is an excellent tutorial on frame alignment at the Sheldon Brown web site

there are simple checks which can be made of the frame's alignment without recourse to any special tools

for the fork one really needs a jig


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daka

I suspect something is bent in the rear triangle. Even really old bikes have at least 110 mm spacing in the rear, and as @juvela points out, 120 mm would be the more common expectation. IIRC, you did find this in the French version of a dumpster, right? Underneath something heavy?

juvela

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this image of the head twigged an idea -




since the present silver respray is uniform over the area where the headplate formerly abided it is reasonable to conclude that its excisement occurred prior to the respray

we do not know for sure what, if anything, lyeth beneath the respray
from the clues visible it appears finish may have been applied directly onto bare metal, without even a primer coat

yet on the steerer we can see traces of a chartreuse flambouyant finish, giving support to the notion that fork may not be original

on to the idea -

when headplates are removed they typically leave in the original finish a "ghost image" of themselves

this gives the shape

if there is any remaining original finish below the silver all or part of such an image may be present and you would be able to check the image against the shape of known emblems

to check for this you could have a go at gently removing the silver paint in the area wherest erstwhile rested the head emblem. the gentlest thing you could begin with would be some non-acetone nail varnish remover.

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HS -

the correct name is Torevess

with the highly stylized font employed it is easy to read the first character in the name as either a C or a G

VeloBase.com - Component: Torevess Course

bottom bracket fittings were also produced with this name -




a poster over at the Tonton forum hath writ that Torevess is "verot"

this is a reference to Monsieur Laurent Verot, one of the founders of the firm which became known as Etablissements Verot-Perrin, makers of products with brand names such as Hauptman, Solida, Acier Diamant, Verot...and oh yes, Stronglight.

another forum poster writes that first appearance of the name was 1949. Torevess marked bottom bracket fittings were frequently combined with Stronglight brand chainsets in the 1950's on new frist quality racing bicycles.

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AnonymousPython

It was just on the ground near the trash. It was alone with nothing on it. But who knows its history

AnonymousPython

WOW! Great eye and lots of good information!! This may be a breakthrough

I will see what I can do about gently removing the paint and searching for a "ghosted" emblem or any other labels/markings. I will post updates.

AnonymousPython

From visually inspecting the frame, the NDS seat stay looks bent. When I do the simple string test to check the alignment, it seems that there is about 0.5mm difference between the two. (23mm - 22.5mm)

This still doesn't really seem right since there would still not be sufficient room for a rear hub and cassette.

juvela

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thank you for these addtional images

we have not seen the frame's distinctive brake bridge previously

this may be a clue which can advance an identification

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alignment -

when you get 'round to the cold setting you will find that the drive side will move laterally slightly more easily than the non-drive side due to the double dimpling of the drive side chainstay

the steel has a measure of springyness and it is necessary to take things very slightly past where you want them to end up with each cold setting as the metal wants to return in the direction it came from

make cold setting adjustments to the rear triangle until the two sides are equidistant from the centreline and the dropouts are 120mm apart

the easiest way to work is to clamp the frame's bottom bracket shell in a beefy bench vise leaving both of one's hands free for the adjustments

if wished, you can do a corrobative test by laying a strightedge across the shell faces and extending it back to the dropouts

the straightedge needs to be at least a half metre in length
test more accurate/reliable if you are able to face the shell first

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/steel-frame-repair.html

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daka

To my eye, both sides look bent, but the NDS more than the DS. In addition, I think there is some inward curvature of the NDS seat stay between the brake bridge and the drop-out. That may be a little more difficult to remove than just cold-setting the dropouts to the correct spacing.

juvela

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lugs -

this topic has come up earlier in the discussion

it has been suggested that the pattern may be an Oscar Egg one

have no familiarity with these so explored a bit

at the UK lightweights site there is an entry on Oscar Egg lugs
the head lug pattern shown does not resemble that of our subject bike
while the seat lug does somewhat resemble that of the bike






https://www.classiclightweights.co.u...scar-egg-lugs/

in this image courtesy of velofile figure nr. 48 illustrates a set of Oscar Egg lugs loose




decided to check a photocopy i have of the NERVEX catalogue dated 1958 to see if there is anything similar to the subject machine's tube joiners

one feature cut pattern which comes very close is Nr. 45
it is most commonly seen paired with nozzle cut Nr. 159
nozzle cut Nr. 159 closely resembles the Oscar Egg seat lug pattern

the one difference between the lugs on our frame and those of Nervex feature cut Nr. 45 is that the Nervex exhibits a triangular cutout "down there in the corner"...

here Nervex pattern 45/159 can be seen on a Ficelle brand cycle of ca. 1973, reportedly contract produced by MICMO -






since the lug pattern of the subject frame does not appear in the Nervex catalogue of 1958 i wonder if perhaps it was discontinued with the launch of feature cut nr. 45

pattern numbers in the catalogue have lots of jumps/gaps; the pattern shown immediately prior to that of nr. 45 is nr. 35

perhaps the numerous gaps may represent discontinued designs

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dating -

since we have a launch date for the Torevess products of 1949 and it looks obvious the frame was built for a manual front mech it is bracketed at the other end by the last manufacture of manual front mechs in the west which was 1961 (they continued to be manufactued east of "the curtain" at least until the late 1960's)

to my eye it looks like the sort of machine which would not have received a single plateau drive train; perhaps others may disagree

this gives a twelve year or so window

we may be able to narrow it further as we learn more...

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AnonymousPython

WOW! (again)

Thank you very much for your time and dedication to help me out identifying this bike! Definitely way more than what I could have done

If you need ANY information from me, just let me know! (I am a master's student and am very busy with projects and exams, so it is hard finding the time to work on the bike right now).

juvela

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chanced upon this machine discussed over at the Tonton forum in course of a search

it begins as an unknown
one poster uploaded an image of a Hirondelle (a marque belonging to Manufrance)
this was done simply as an example of the frame style and not an ID suggestion

it appears to have been constructed with the same lug pattern as our subject cycle and came with a Torevess headset

the vertical spacing for its head emblem fastener holes even looks to be about the same, at least by eye, as that for the frame under discussion

one kicker: the owner reports it came to him with a stem marked Tigra

https://forum.tontonvelo.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=31592

head -




steerer markings -





unfortunately, taper tube ends are not pointed -




even came with a Torvess cottered bottom bracket assembly -




Tigra marked stem -




example looks to date from the early to mid 1950's

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