Originally Posted by Kevindale

I appreciate that you came back to respond. The above section is about as far as I read in your response, and I just skimmed the rest. Here's what you don't seem to understand - the people who are responding to you and your ads LOVE steel bikes, and love vintage steel bikes in particular. Many of the folks here, I can promise you, know much more than you do about the history of steel racing bikes, the nuances of different steel tubing and geometry, and the quality, rarity, and desirability of different bike makers. Telling this group that they're wrong is like going to NASA and telling them you have a better plan for how to put a lander on Mars.

Markets are what markets are. Most markets are NOT about rarity, nor about history. Yes, we know that vintage bikes are undervalued by the general public. But the fact is, that general buying public decides what the market is, every time they choose to buy, or not to buy, what is offered. You don't understand this market. I have some artwork that I know is amazing. I wouldn't part with some of it for thousands of dollars. But if I go to sell it, I would have to accept pennies on the dollar relative to how I value that art.

There are simply more used good quality mass produced vintage steel bikes out there than there are buyers for those bikes. By a wide margin. And the mismatch is probably growing every year, with only a handful of high prestige hand-made steel bikes doing reasonably well in that market. Ten years from now a nice Univega that sells now for $225 might have to be priced at $125 to sell. That's the world you live in, and your opinions can't change it.

As for the comparison with new steel bikes, you're being ridiculous. I can go spend thousands on a new steel Tommasini, or I can spend a quarter to a third of that on a used one in fantastic shape that is essentially the same thing. That's what the marketplace has collectively decided. And that's an extremely desirable steel bike, hand made, in Italy, by a master of the craft. I have nice examples of Panasonic and Univega and Bridgestone - nice bikes, well made, ride great. But they're mass produced Japanese bikes, literally made by the millions. They are not rare, even if you personally haven't see them often. They are desired by a small group of people in the know, like this forum, because they're good bikes for low prices. The average bike buyer is very different - they're leery of buying an "outdated" bike that may have hidden damage, that has weird downtube lever thingies, that has all these ball bearings that need to be serviced regularly, that have spots of oxidation and rust and paint chips, that doesn't have a warranty, that is being sold out of some guy's garage who is obviously giving a very hard sell. That's just the reality.

Maybe I missed it in your very long counter argument, but again, how many of these bikes that you've been listing in the last few weeks at these high prices have you sold at or near your asking price?

Originally Posted by Spoonrobot

I'd like you to keep disagreeing, it's extremely interesting.

The rust, paint damage, zip ties and worn tires combined with the prices have me following this thread closely to see what pops up next. Thank you for taking the time to post.

Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake

Any other NBA fans reminded of Lavar Ball? We just don't get it because we ain't big ballers.

Originally Posted by mikey789

And, at 5-10 I don't ride your Fox-News-Approved 58cm, but 60 or 62 even. I do not STAND OVER bikes, I RIDE THEM! Can you stand over a horse ? Can you stand over a car ? I only need to be able to get on and off a bike, although 62 or 3 is as high as I'll go.

Originally Posted by rccardr

Interesting. We have a similar CL seller here in Northern VA. His descriptions of what he has done to the bikes he has for sale are exhaustive and emphasize that they were 'pro tuned'.

However, the majority of his offerings are models and sizes that are off the beaten path popularity-wise, and the prices are...well, even to me (who tends to sell above premium stuff at a well above premium price)...overly optimistic to the point of wondering about his personal reality.

He's been advertising mostly the same bikes for year after year. So, there's a data point for you.

Originally Posted by ptempel

Unless the OP has an unusually short torso and unusually long legs, then these sizes are way too big. I'm 6'1" and used to ride 60cm frames in 1980's and early 1990's. Then I found out that was too big for me. At 5'10", I'd start at a 54cm/55cm and go up or down depending inseam and torso. I've heard of "french-fit" but 60cm to 63cm bikes are just a bit over the top of that concept for a 5'10" height person. But, hey don't listen to me. Get a bike fit on one of those bikes from a reputable shop and see what they say...

Originally Posted by mikey789

Ok, well, I've read all the replies.

I have to agree and disagree at the same time.

Yes, I agree an almost-NOS Univega like the Sportour is not as likely to sell for even the same as a beatup Colnago (had them sold them) but, do one thing - PRICE NEW STEEL BIKES.
* Steel is still the best material for a road bike. I can explain if you like as I've done 100 times.
* Vintage bikes are way undervalued. (lots of poo-poo'ing)
* New bikes are WAY overvalued. (Wall Street)
* New bikes and used bikes are normally bought by different groups of people for different reasons. I minored in psychology and have learned a lot in 60 years.
Same deal with the Gran Premio. They're failry rare IMHO, and although this one is not NOS, it has the rarer frameset with lug cutouts from what I read, It's pretty nice and rides just as well as the Colnago's I've had, maybe better. Tires, spoke tension, affect ride atleast as much as frame material I have found. Plus it's my only one If I could trade it for a 60 I'd do it and NEVER sell it. The headset rust (if that's the kind that won't remove) is a minor issue but maybe it's overpriced No probelm, easily fixed.
And, at 5-10 I don't ride your Fox-News-Approved 58cm, but 60 or 62 even. I do not STAND OVER bikes, I RIDE THEM! Can you stand over a horse ? Can you stand over a car ? I only need to be able to get on and off a bike, although 62 or 3 is as high as I'll go. I prefer a igher top tube as that is where I rest. Same as my motorcycles. I used to race MX, 100ft jumps, ESPN stuff though I never was Pro. Standover is the least important spec there is. Only in an emergency, off-road/MTB does standover matter at all. I find most folks who are bicyclers-only (not MC) and very 'conventional' need sloping top tubes and low standover heights as they don't really know IMHO how to get on and off a bike. And clip-ins ? Another falacy of US riders. Of course shoes are one of the reasons standover is important. One stupidity causes another in this case. Sorry, but I'm not going to tell you what you want to hear, bu tthe truth. PROS have been scientifically measured and they DO NOT PULL UP. FACT. Our knees are not designed to pull up. You'll pull the meniscus apart. Clip-ins are a 70'sleftover from racer-wannabees. Butthe LBS will sell you whatever they can. Who's to argue with money ? We never did. But, if someone were to ASK, then YES, use generic plastic pedals, not special shoes.
Yes, the season's winding down, this isn't the location to sell locally, but it is what I have to do. Ebay is the next project of course.
I seriously doubt anyone who's replied has sold more bikes than I have the past 8 years...but that's a moot point as all suggestions are welcome and considered.
And if someone wants to buy another bike in the exact same cosmetic condition, but without rebuilt hubs, bottom brackets, headsets, trued & tensioned wheels, DTCs, and the other 50 things I do to most bikes, LET THEM !
I've ridden hundreds of bikes, and just rebuilt wheel bearings and BBs will do wonders for ease of riding. I've had more than one person ask, "do you have any bikes that are harder to pedal,as this one is too easy" Then I have to explain why 95% of bikes on CL are junkers. Also, with a storage area, instead of commercial RE prices, I can avoid the urgency and remember that selling 1 or 10 bikes will not matter,I can focus on what I sell and what I keep. Even after selling 50, I'm still keeping 50. And unless I find another Gran Premio in 60cm (which I prefer even at 5-10 - do you want to know why ?)

In any case, I appreciate all comments, but don't neccessarily agree. I've been doing this way too long to go along just to be part of the group.

BTW, Chrome sux IMHO. I was in IT for 40 years, and Chrome sux. It's the website that's causing the problem, not the Browsers. Advetising is ok and we all expect some, but this almost CONSTANT DLing of .tv stuff is web programmer who is out of control and should be fired IMHO.

BTW, these are not my 'keeper' bikes, but only bikes I'd be willing to part with.

There, is everyone PO'd now that I didn't agree like a SHEEPLE ?

Originally Posted by rccardr

Update! The guy in the DC area whose CL ads were eerily similar to the ones mentioned by the OP has announced that: a) he is moving, and b) that he has 50 or more bikes to sell.


So, maybe it's the same guy after all.

Originally Posted by Kevindale

If you look at some of this gentleman's other ads, you'll see he's selling a 56cm bike, which is says is just right for someone 5'6" to 5'10". So he understands proper bike fit when he has a bike of average size, but when he's trying to move a 63cm bike, he sings a different tune and claims it's fine for someone 5'9" and up.

Originally Posted by 3alarmer

...the curse of genius is to live in a world populated by Philistines.

Originally Posted by randyjawa

My late sixties or early seventies all chrome plated and fully rebuilt Torpado(I have too many old Italian bikes at the moment). Watch for it on Ebay(have not sold anything on Ebay for a few years but might give it a try again - hope it is not as disappointing as it came to be a few years ago).