himespau 

Fair enough.

Cypress

Their cost is roughly the same (or close to) what the internet sellers pay for their stock, but the shop has employees and rent to pay. They gambled on having you by the short and curlies and lost a sale (and potential future sales) because of it. Then they'll get on their soap box and scream about the death of small business. They refuse to acknowledge that the customers who don't have an issue with paying full MSRP are usually the same (older) people that don't care for/understand the internet. Those customers are literally dying off and being replaced by people that realize they aren't a captive audience.

eduskator

Employees and rent to pay or not, they still lost money by not price matching it. Either they couldn't (in other words, they would have sold me the product under their cost) or they could but didn't (your explanation above).

Having studied business management in university and currently working in that field, I can understand scenario #1 , but #2 equals to suicide in the long run.

guadzilla

Ah yes, I forget - this is BF, so by all means lets play the "what if" game. Maybe it was raining. Maybe there were zombies on the street, maybe they delivered the bike to my friend via catapult. Maybe there was something that let them show him the various bikes in the shop, discuss pricing with him, give him a couple of helmets to try, run his card, show him how the shifters worked (thank god for small mercies) but somehow made it hard for them to spend 5 minutes setting his saddle up correctly.

If this guy was a new bike user, that bike would not get much more use. Feel free to make all the excuses and "what ifs" that you want, but there is absolutely no excuse for a bike shop to send out a new cyclist with a $1300 bike (which is a lot of money for most people) without an attempt to get the saddle height somewhat close to correct. It isnt that hard to do, even with social distancing - but i am sure there are plenty of "what ifs" that prevented them from doing this one single vital thing, but not from taking his money.

Maybe THAT'S why i am annoyed with this lack of service - in any case, despite me just sharing bad experience, feel free to come up with hypothetical excuses to defend an LBS that I havent named, Reflexive contrariness for the win, I guess.

SMH.

guadzilla

First thing i asked him (Since i run a customer-facing business, i am only too aware of how customers can misunderstand things). They showed him a couple of bikes. He swiped his card. They gave him a couple of helmets to try out. After he paid for the bike, bye,

Even *WITH* social distancing, rain, zombies on the freaking road and irrational lumatics exaggerating things on the Internet, it isnt that hard to do a basic saddle height adjustment or at the very least, even TELL him that he needed to set his saddle height properly and explain to him how to do so. Guy was actually very happy with how friendly they were, which is what led him to buy the bike on the spot (instead of trying out 2 or 3 stores and then circling back to me to finalize the purchase) - but he had NO idea he needed to make any adjustments to his saddle or anything else (his shifters are also rotated way up, but that's another story).

He rode in the parking lot for 5 min and didnt ride for 3-4 days because of that, till i pushed him to go out and give it another go,. Then he told me of the pain in his knee and hands, which he felt were due to his lack of fitness (and not due to poor fit).

Yes, I freely admit to being extra annoyed at this because of my bud's history (the details of which are not relevant here), but be that as it may - there is no reason for a bike shop to send out a new cyclist without making even the slightest attempt to fit him on a bike (or even telling him what he should do). That's bad business ethics and also bad business sense (you lose a lifetime of a customer for one sale).

guadzilla

^^
Bingo. I am on both sides of this coin. On the customer side - bikes, camera gear, watches. And on the retailer side, one of my business units retails hobbyist equipment (in a different area) - in this industry, i have seen large online retailers selling a product for lower than my trade price.

What are you gonna do? I pretty much accept that some stuff, i simply cannot add enough value to make it worthwhile for the customer to buy from me. It's a simple analysis - i put myself in the customer's shoes and go "does this make sense? Would i buy it if i was on the other side of the counter?" - if there is no compelling reason for them to buy it from me (price competitiveness or value added), i just dont bother keeping it in stock. We keep it as a special item on-order - there, with no inventory costs, I can order and deliver it at really good rates if the customer is willing to wait. This works, as long as the stuff I *do* keep in stock and sell covers costs and turns a profit. Most stuff we stock/sell is stuff where we CAN offer value. A couple of locations dont have enough volume to be profitable stand-alone - so we combine them with other services.

You cant expect that the world owes your L_S an existence. You need to earn it - be innovative, be creative, be financially smart. And sometimes, even then, as the market changes, it may result in a lower number of shops that can survive: maybe 3 bikes shops instead of 8, or whatever. The ones that think long-term with each customer will be the survivors. And really, the first rule is this: "Thou shall never knowingly let your customer make a bad purchase".

guadzilla

Most often, this is due to a slavish devotion to a static, simplistic pricing model: that 101 stuff they teach. Maybe he's done the math and figured out that he needs 30% profit margin per unit to survive.

What he doesnt realize is that:
- a 10% margin on special order stuff may be more profitable than 35% margin on stuff that sits on the shelt for several months
- if lowering prices increases volume, then he may not need as much margin per item
- lifetime value of a customer - a lower margin on a big-ticket sale may still mean greater overall returns, in sales of consumables and other items
And so on.

Average margin goals and margins on individual items are 2 different things.

seypat

You need to realize up until this post, you had not listed any details of the transation other than they did not give him a fit. There was not enough info for people, at least me anyway, to make a judgement call either way. Now you are including the details of his experience. Maybe, just maybe if you had included this updated info in your initial post, people might not have questioned your rant. Am I reading correctly that your friend rode it in the parking lot, but didn't go back in and ask for help? How do you expect the LBS to correct a problem if they don't know there is a problem? If the person is happy when he walks out the door, how do they know there is a problem? Has the LBS been given a chance to correct the problem?

guadzilla

i was sharing an anecdote, not trying to get a guilty verdict in a court trial - or even asking for a judgement call/validation. If i had named the bike shop, for sure, i'd expect people to ask for more evidence before forming a decision. This was just shooting the breeze with a side helping of vent. Didnt realize that every story has to be verified.

In this case, my friend took the bike back with him and rode it in the parking lot of the hotel a day or so later. That's when he had problems. Should he have had a test ride in the LBS? Yes - but he didnt. Being new to cycling and impulsive, he didnt know. I've asked him to call the bike shop and see if they will help him with the basic setup. His priapic handlebars also need adjusting. Let's see what they say.

Not trying to pick a fight here, but are you just playing devil's advocate, or do really think it is ok for them to let a new rider - who may not know what questions to ask - leave with a bike without making the slightest bit of effort to set him up correctly or to ensure that he has a positive first step in the new sport? IE, just because he didnt ask them to help him set up the bike, was it was ok for them to let him go as is? Cos I am very surprised at the robust defense you are putting up of the bike shop. Assuming i am not lying* and this incident is represented, is this acceptable to you?

(*Of course, i could be lying and just making a fictional allegation involving a fictional friend, a fictional bike and a fictional LBS. If you feel that is a possibility, fair play for being suspicious).

Emmerthouse

Every poorly run business LBS or not, is a self remedied problem. Sooner or later they will close their doors. Which is a shame. All that effort and money to start up and it all goes away. Sad really.

On a lighter note... I love my LBS. Well there are a ton in Portland. River city however, took the time to really fit me for the clip in shoes I bought and the bike fitting I got from them was a fantastic experience.
My most used bike shop lately however has been The Bike gallery in Beaverton. A couple of weeks ago i traded some parts for a wheelset and i called them on the road to ask a few questions about swapping the cassette over, did they have the Shimano tool I needed? And of course they said it'd be best if they looked at it.
Drove straight over.
With the new distance rules in place i waited outside until it was my turn and the mechanic came out and eyeballed it and we talked a few minutes about whether i should buy the tool to do it myself or have them do it. He wasnt sure my cassette would fit and asked if he could take my wheels inside for a minute. Yes of course that's fine.
A couple minutes later he comes back with the cassette swapped and no charge, he just wanted to see if it would fit. Super great peeps over there. I've since stopped by for bar tape and whatever else I can think of as thanks for being cool.
Those kinds of companies will survive the apocalypse.

Darth Lefty 

My bike stores are consistently meh except when it comes to spokes, then they really outdo each other for stupid, greedy, slow and useless

eaglerulez

I realized that bike shops needed to die when I went to buy my girlfriend (now wife) a bike about 3 years ago. She's 5'2" so knowing that she was on the shorter side I legitimately wanted help and advice on what size and roadbike was most appropriate for her. Likewise, she personally wanted a comfortable and inviting bike to ride, not something crazy intense or aggressive.

Went to (3) different bike shops and they just started listing off their models to me. After asking for whichever entry level model they had (which they didn't readily disclose), I then asked if they had a frame in her size and they all basically said it would be about a week to get one in stock. What was weird is that I felt like these bike shops were all using generic canned sales openers on me as opposed to trying to listen to our situation and what we were looking for. I wouldn't say they were aggressive, but the vibe was very much "here's a slight roadblock we can't be bothered to do anything else to service you".

I then head over to REI and have a great associate spend about 45 minutes with my girlfriend measuring her, showing her all of the options, etc. They had plenty of sizes and variety of price ranges to choose from. She ultimately didn't find a bike that she liked there, but it was already a night and day difference in experience. We then head over to our local Performance bike shop, and again meet a great sales associate who helps my girlfriend ride a few different models. She was torn between a $750 model and a $1500 model and the sales associate goes "you know...you're new to cycling the $750 model is the color that you like, I really don't think you need the $1500 model right now" and we happily purchased her bike from them.

I used to read all sorts of stories about how Performance bikes was the "McDonalds" of bike shops. Of course REI is kind of a generic entry level place to start with bikes as well. When they're offering legitimate better shopping experiences and higher levels of customer service than LBSes there's a problem. The irony to me too is that the shops I went to are considered the best shops in our area with great yelp reviews, newspaper articles about them, etc. so it's not like I was going to some random shady spots. Of course, even though my girlfriend was an entry level cyclist I'm a pretty serious roadie so they all lost my potential business based on how they treated us.

I'd say if you're a beginner, REI is the way to go. You'll get plenty of options and support in a non-pressure environment. If you're a more serious rider, order your bike direct online, use velo-fix for all of your wrenching needs, and pay a local fitter a few hundred bucks to get you dialed in. I've found that eco-system is way cheaper than an LBS, far more convenient, knowledgeable, and supportive.

phrantic09

Agree with everything you said here

mgopack42 

I agree that it is important to support your LBS unless you want them to disappear. I will tell my long rambling story to show how hard it can be to support LBS.
Back when I was buying my first (only so far) CF bike in 2012, I had a budget of $4000 (which I thought was HUGE). I had been riding Campagnolo for 15 years, and had decided that I wanted to continue doing so. The issue here is there are no off the shelf bikes in this price range that have Campagnolo OEM. I was in the Sacramento area at the time, and there are lots of bike shops around. I went to a nice, larger shop in Folsom, where I lived, and wandered around for 30 minutes waiting for help. when I got waited on, I explained my goals, and desired specifications. the sales associate looked at inventory, and said something like, "Oh we don't have anything like that. maybe we have a previous model frame we can start with." and handed me off to a teenager working there for the summer. I ended up leaving with a bad taste in my mouth. next stop was a Mikes Bikes franchise in Sacramento. they let me wander around for along time, and I never even got any sales associate to come over and see if I needed help, so I left, starting to feel discouraged.
I went next to another local Folsom LBS, and had a great experience. helpful and spent time with me discussing options. I test rode a BMC and a Cervelo S5. I thought the BMC was too stiff and jarring of a ride for what I wanted. The S5 was awesome, but I was more of a S3 budget. The S5 had carbon wheels, which I felt could influence the ride quality, and was almost 2 X my budget...and when I flipped it over it was a China bike, not Taiwan, which I felt was a negative.
Next I drove to Auburn, about 40 miles away, because I always wanted a Colnago, and the CX series was new and hot. They didn't have any to test in my size, so we looked around to see what the options were. they had a black on black Pinarello and I took it for a test ride, and loved the way it rode, and it was pretty sexy looking as well. We started to get into the nitty-gritty of components, and I mentioned that at my price point I figured I would need to settle for Athena components. the proprietor said he would rather sell me Shimano over Athena, but he could make my price with Chorus.
So I ended up with 2 good and 2 indifferent LBSs, the one that sold me the Pinarello was Bicycle Emporium in Auburn... and I would highly recommend them based on my long ago experience!

The moral is that the LBS has to be an active participant in gaining and maintaining a customer base, especially one that is willing to pay the extra for the value added intangibles. Moral #2 is that excellent customer service is job #1 .
EDIT: the first LBS is now a Mikes Bikes Franchise, and Bicycle Emporium is still going strong in Auburn. I long since moved away, so I am not a regular, there or anywhere, since I do all my own wrenching.

mgopack42 

Well that story got out of control, I apologize fro that. i do have another one though.
My wife decided she wanted to upgrade her bike this year. When we went to Maui last fall she rented a Specialized Roubaix, and she liked everything about it down to color and price. so we knew exactly what we wanted. I went on the Specialized web site and was ready to order it. When I saw that you selected a shop to pick up the bike at, I was worried that the LBS would lose out on some of the profit. So I found the shop we wanted to use, and called them, made the order over the phone. I wanted to get her a proper fitting, so I mentioned that on the phone when I ordered it. I was told that a full fitting was done on all bikes purchased. Well the appointment was made for a Saturday in late March, and on the preceding Wednesday the Gov. went on the radio and locked down California. I figured we would need to wait a long time. The LBS called, to confirm the appointment since bike shops were considered essential businesses. We tried to fit the appointment into the slower mid-day part of Saturday.
Well the owner spent 1.5 hours fitting her to her new machine, This LBS is 40 miles from where I live, but they are going to be my go to shop now.
the shop is Off The Chain Bikes in Hollister CA. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!! Brian was personable, professional, knowledgeable, gave us a lot of support. found out in talking to him, he is a professional frame builder... a fact I will file away for another day!

seypat

Until you provided more info there was no way I could make a call either way. There's no way to tell what happened there with the info you provided. That is all.

Here's an even more bizarre scenario not specifically relating to your rant. So, your buddy being a newbie does not have any experience with the riding position on a road bike. The bike shop does give him a fitting. Same thing happens. He rides it in the parking lot then calls you complaining. You do your Zoom thing to fit him as best you can. He rides it around the block and is still having problems with the fit. He puts it away for good and calls another friend complaining. Absolutely no fault anywhere, but an unsatisfactory experience. When he walked out of the LBS, he was happy. He was also happy as a bug in a rug after you fitted him. It didn't work out, however. Sometimes it happens.

guadzilla

Since i started this thread, here are my experiences with LBS:

- My first bike was a Trek Al something or the other. They had me stradde the TT and sold me a size 60. I have very long legs/short torso. I had to put a 50-60mm stem on it to get it to work. I got a fit done and ride a 56. So not the "let's help a new cyclist out" type of experience. The next 4-5 bikes were all mail order, most off Competitive Cyclist, 1 direct from Lynskey, 1 from Bike Friday Great service and advice in each cases. Then a hiatus from buying bikes and short hiatus from riding much. The urge to ride returned last year for me - and my wife also decided she liked the sport well enough to get a carbon bike for herself.

So the first bike purchase of 2019 was a Cervelo R2 in early 2019 for her - we were passing by a bike shop while on vacation and poked our noses in (I actually wanted a light for my bike), and saw one on sale for a very hefty discount. It was pretty much a "ok, we'll take this" and swipe the card - and we just expected to get it boxed and leave. However, the bike shop spent an hour setting her up - tweaking her saddle height, fore-aft, etc. I offered to pay for this extra work, they declined. Said it was included. Very impressed by t hem!

Next, i was looking for a road bike for myself, and contacted a few dealers in the region. Visited the Cannondale LBS and then tried to follow up with them but was getting very vague answers about availability for my size. The Trek store basically quoted me list price and had near mono-syllabic answers to my questions. The Spesh boutique, OTOH, was fantastic. Super responsive to deal with and gave me a very good price. So ordered my Venge from them. I was getting a cheaper price from a grey market importer, but figured I'd go with the service/setup/etc of the boutique. They upgraded the wheelset for me, they gave me a couple of stems to try out and decide which one to keep, they lent me a few saddles to test, etc.

My wife - who has far better endurance genes than me - won her AG in a 70.3 on a road bike within 10 months of getting her Cervelo. So of course, a TT bike for her got added to the purchase list and we also got this from the same boutique. Since we wanted mainly just the frame and everything else would be upgraded, we picked the lowest trim - a Comp selling with a MRP of $3k. Despite that, they spent well over an hour doing a full TT bike fit for her - again, at no charge. To be honest, given that we had spent nearly $10k on bikes there, i would have been a bit miffed had they charged for a fit - but i was impressed by how thorough the fit session was. It wasnt a short 10 min job.

Those guys are the epitome of post-sales service - I was struggling to set my Venge up properly and they helped me out with some questions on the phone. Good discounts on Di2 kits, wheelsets, tires, etc. They even steered me towards a cheaper wheelset based on what i told them i wanted. In addition to the 2 bikes, I've spent a very tidy sum with them for parts. My wife has her eye on a high-end race bike (as unlike me, she actually wins races) and will get a S-Works Tarmac from them. They are slightly more expensive than buying online, but the service/support is worth the premium.

I should also give a shout-out to the 2 LBSes that are local to me. They dont carry the bike brands i wanted, but they've been fantastic at ordered gear for me, servicing the stuff i need, and i get a decent enough discount that it isnt worth me trying to maximize my savings by buying online. Wahoo, Garmin Vector, some Di2 stuff, cassettes, saddle, helmets, servicing... they are good guys to deal with and straight up, and always my first contact anytime i need bike gear.

So there are good LBSes.

That said, i think the onus is on the shop to acquire the customer. Like it or not, in the bike industry, the shop needs the customer more than the customer needs the shop: so the shop needs to make the effort to acquire the customer (and for a new customer, price is a bigger thing). I was torn between the Madone and the Venge - got a reasonable discount for the Venge and nothing for the Madone but a "when you are ready to buy, we can discuss" - err, how will i be ready to buy if you dont give me a price?? The discount got me to make the first purchase - the service kept me as a customer.

Cypress

My first real road bike was an Al Giant TCR back in 2002. I'm 5'10" and the shop encouraged me straddle the TT of size-Large TCR (60 cm equivalent) that they were trying to get rid of from the previous year. It "fit" so I bought it. Turns out, TCR frames are compact (it's in the name lol), so the TT clearance has no bearing on fit. I was stretched out quite a bit, but I made it work. They dumped an ill-fitting bike off on me because I didn't know any better and it got it out of their stock.

I rode that thing for two years before realizing why it felt odd in the corners. Bought a 55cm LOOK 565 and it was like going from a Cessna to an F-35.

bladehack

Got this message yesterday in an email from one of my LBS in the MD-DC suburbs:I did not buy my bike through them (Craig's List purchase) but have bought parts through them and services from them totaling at least $1000 over the last couple of years. The last service I got through them was poor and I got help through a closer LBS in fixing their work.

It feels kind of strange being on the email list of a bike shop that says they don't want my business unless it's a new bike I want to buy. Guess where I am not going the next time I need something?

MSchott

It's not that they don't want your business right now. They have to limit the number of people coming into the shop and this is one way to do that. They certainly cannot say "we will only serve customers that have bought X dollars through us".

MAK

I think it's a bit harsh to say that some bike shops need to die out. Perhaps the real statement should be that some bike shops need better management. Case in point, a number of years ago I went to an LBS in my area in full kit intending to test ride a bike or two in anticipation of a purchase. I conspicuously stood in the shop for quite a while, helmet and pedals in hand, as the sales employees were playing video games on the store computer and making personal phone calls. I finally approached them and indicated that I wanted to test ride certain bikes and was told that there were no mechanics available to install the pedals and it looked like rain so bikes couldn't leave the shop. I left feeling that this shop shouldn't bother being in business.

A two or three weeks later I heard that the shop was under new management. I went back in and it was like night and day. I was greeted at the door and treated like a valued customer. The new manager had purged the shop of the inept employees and replaced them with seasoned riders who acted as a professional staff should act. They put the bike on a trainer, took some basic measurements and then sent me out for a test ride.

I, like the OP, am willing to spend a few dollars more to support a local business. When I have a problem that I can't find the solution to, I can go to the LBS and get answers. If everything goes online, too many people will get frustrated and quit. I disagree with a response above who opined that the LBS should sell at internet prices to be competitive or they should not exist. Unless we're talking Walmart or a huge company, that simply makes no sense.

The bottom line here is that poor employees are often the result of poor management. Yes, some businesses operate poorly, but most can be fixed. This enhances availability and competition.

Just my opinion.

guadzilla

e
While i get that if they have a limited amount of slots, it makes sense to prioritize highr paying customers, there surely has to be a better way to do this. Unless the bike shop is running at 100% capacity and is in the enviable position of turning away customers, surely they can make an effort to accommodate other customers - especially new customers. Try to fit them into a slot - if there really are no slots left, do a phone call to figure out what they need and complete the transaction. Hell, just find a nicer way to say "no" to a customer which doesnt make them feel unwanted.

Because at some point down the road, things will start going back to status quo and this is going to bite them in the ass.

Fair point. Sometimes, a less-than-ideal employee can ruin the experience for everyone. Making it worse is that a lot of hobbyist shops - be it bikes, scuba gear, high end audio or whatever - are run by people who are/were enthusiasts first and not necessarily super-qualified businessmen, and may not have the skillset needed to ensure customer satisfaction monitoring or adapting to changing market conditions.

It's just that there are so many stories of people trying to buy new bikes and getting a really poor fit - me, my friend, Cypress above. It blows my mind how businesses that SHOULD be relying on service constantly ignore this. I mean, you are 95% there... why screw up at the last step??

An update in this case - my friend spoke to the bike shop and they were very pleasant and happily agreed to set him up on Saturday. Will update on how it goes.

Rogerogeroge

Give them a break, except for the poor service you got last time. It's a e-mail generic statement. My shop is seeing customers by appointment only. We're busy, but our staffing is down 30% and our business is down 60%. We're spending a lot of time sanitizing everything you touch. At this moment we can't waste our time on a customer wandering in to piece together parts to get a Craigslist bike running. In ordinary times we'd love to help you. And some people that fit this description use their bikes for actual transportation, so I'm not saying everything is righteous and just. Maybe if you call the shop and can nail down what you need, they'll set you up. And when you make that six foot exchange, tactfully let them know about the poor service you got last time.

fried bake

A better approach would have stated that they will prioritize bikes needed for essential transport and purchases from them and that wait times for others would be extended.

blaine