Chrisp72

Hello all!

I now weigh 210lbs and am thinking about a wheel upgrade because, well, why not? I want to get a 36 hole wheelset as the current 32 isn't as robust as I would like. I wanted to get a Velocity Dyad rim but can't source one here in Ontario that's silver and 36 hole so I'm going to try out the H plus Son Archetype. I am buying the rim new and hope to mate it to an old 7 speed Exage hub that I had on my Caravan when I bought it. I would have used the original wheel but felt it better to replace it with something that wasn't as worn after blowing my rim on a previous new to me bike.

I know that some tandems have 40 hole wheelsets to counter the weight of two people. Would a 36 hole wheelset be adequate for the weight of a loaded touring bicycle with a rider weight of 210lbs? I would like to hear opinions and anecdotes of those of us who are a similar weight. Anybody is welcome to comment if the mood strikes...

tspoon

Mavics' A719 and 319 rims are fairly robust. I had an A719 rim that failed after 70,000 odd kilometers, the spoke pulled through, ( I weight 170lb +-). Are you after 700c or 26"? 26" wheels are typically just that little bit stronger, everything else being equal. My current wheelset is a 26" Xtreme Airline which is a Rosebike house brand. I'm about 15000k in with no issues so far. (https://www.rosebikes.com/xtreme-air...e_size=36+hole)

elcruxio

It's your choice of course but 210 isn't all that heavy for a bicycle and if it isn't broken...

The spoke count isn't really as important as the quality of the actual wheel. Also a determining factor is wheel size as was mentioned earlier. 36 spokes for a 28" rim is a good number. 36 spokes for a 26" is a lot of spokes packed pretty close together. It's ok, but perhaps not ideal for high pressure tires as there's more holes on the rim centerline which in turn means less material holding the rim together. 40 spokes for a 26" rim is starting to verge on reckless overkill and can really start causing issues with high pressure tires.

Velocity is ok but pretty darn expensive. The Archetype seems decent enough but I don't have personal or even impersonal experience with them. I can however warmly recommend DT Swiss TK540 rims. Come with 36 holes, eyeleted and in my experience are laser straight from the factory. I've used these for years now without a single issue.

In my experience a well built 36 spoke wheelset will handle anything you can throw at them on tour at your weight. The build quality and components used all play an important role in the quality of the wheel. I'm heavier than you are and my complete touring setup me included was around 330lbs last time I checked. That's with water, food, bike, gear, me. I 've done thousands upon thousands of miles with the TK540 wheelset and after building them I've had to true them once when the rear developed a sub 1mm wobble. And even that was actually due to the components bedding in and achieving the final form of the wheel. The conditions I've ridden have been varied. From smooth tarmac to MTB singletrack in the Italian Dolomites and everything in between ( the bike is a 28" Long Haul Trucker so definitely not a mountain bike ).

On the other hand my wife's complete setup (bike, food, water, gear, her) weighs less than I do naked. And her 36 spoke machine built Bontrager rear wheel disintegrated to a point I could no longer fix it. Components matter.

The things to keep in mind are:
Rim quality (vertically stiff is better than not. All of your examples are vertically stiff)
Spoke quality (I use DT Swiss Alpine III's. They are probably the strongest spoke in the market and not really all that heavy either)
Spoke offset (this is determined mostly by hub flange positioning. A well balanced hub will give more even tensions on the drive and non drive sides and a badly balanced one will be super tight on the drive side and super slack on the non drive side)
Spoke count (not as important as you'd think, but in general 36 spokes per wheel is completely adequate for a 28" rim. For smaller rims I'd go for 32 spokes because it's easier to find good hubs with 32 spoke drillings)
Build quality (a machine built wheel can be good, a hand built wheel can be bad. What really matters is that the wheel is true in every dimension, the wheel has been stress relieved AND the spokes are evenly tensioned on their respective sides. Also the spokes need to have enough tension as slack spokes break easier than too tight spokes. But too tight spokes break rims so there's a balance to be found)
If you find a pre built wheel you can retension and stress relieve it yourself and you'll have a hand built wheel on your hands. However sadly very few pre builts exhibit properly good spokes (DT Comp is ok, but the alpine III is much better).

jpescatore

Elcruxio said it all, will just add my experience as I weigh 225, down from a high of 275 years ago.

At my most Clydesdale, I would break constantly break spokes on the standard machine built 28 spoke rear wheel on my original hybrid bike. A skilled local bike shop built me a 32 spoke Mavic rear wheel with a triple cross spoke pattern and that wheel lasted 20 more years and I never broke a spoke.


While I still had that hybrid, I bought a Trek 520 touring bike with 36 spoke rear wheel. The bike shop said ride it for a while, bring it back for a free tune up and we will hand tune all the spokes. Went 10 years and lots of miles on that rear wheel until I hit a big pothole and broke a spoke.

A good wheel built by someone who knows what they are doing will last you a long time at 210 lbs!

Chrisp72

Thanks for all the comments!

I'm looking to build a 700c wheel and it's going to happen in steps. The DT rim suggested by elcruxio sounds like it would be a good fit but I think I'm going to go with the H plus Son rim. I'm sourcing it from a local bike shop so I want to support them and it's what they have or are able to get in. I looked at my Exage hub last night and its 36 hole so the hub is taken care of. The suggestion of DT Alpine III s is a good one and I think it will build up a solid rear wheel. I thought about building it myself but I think for this I'll go with someone who has the right tools...I do not. I've been looking for a good shop to visit and have decided on a place called Urbane Cyclist. It's located in downtown Toronto so once I'm able to get the parts together I can chat with them about building it. I think they're a dealer for DT Swiss so I'll get them to order in the spokes...Its a worker co op too so I'm supporting more than just the owners, which sits right with me. I know they have accredation from UBI and they stand behind their work.

Tourist in MSN

If I was building a new wheel, I would use a new hub too. The most recent wheel I built up new for a touring bike was three years ago, I used a XT M756A rear 36H hub. It is a disc hub but you could certainly use that hub on a bike with rim brakes and later if you wanted a new bike that took disc, you would already have a good wheel.
https://www.nashbar.com/shimano-xt-f...56aazl/p316002

But, I do not know what the spacing on your bike is, the hub I mention has a 135mm dropout spacing. Thus, I do not know if it would fit.

I do not know what that hub would cost in Canada, but in USA they are in the $50 to $60 USD range.

I am not sure how hard it would be to run a 7 sp cassette on an 8 - 10 speed freehub, but i suspect it would be easy to make it work. The bike shop could tell you if that would work or not.

Chrisp72

Tourist in MSN...I have a current wheel on my bike that is a ten speed 105 hub and it's set up for seven speed. The spacing is 130 as far as I know.

I had thought about getting a new hub but would really like to use the Exage hub that came with the bike. I figure if there are any issues with the hub the bike shop that will build the wheel will refuse to use it; at least that's what they say on their website. I like older Shimano as long as its in usable shape and bearings and seals on Shimano are generally pretty good. I think if I were to go new I would be looking at a seven speed Acera hub now and that gives me all kinds of reservations. I don't know if those reservations are justified or based in reality...I haven't used Acera and can't really comment on it's durability.

The older Exage hub is on a wheel that will need to be disassembled, which I'm looking forward to. I must admit I have a soft spot for doing my own work, even though I don't know how to do everything yet. Learning now may help down the road...

Carbonfiberboy 

We're a 285 lb. tandem team. We tour on 36H rims with CX-Ray spokes even. The secret to tandem or clydesdale wheels is a deep rim, 25mm or more, so your Archetype rim will be wonderful. Double butted spokes of course. I think Velocity is shut down and not shipping.

Building your own wheels is a good idea. Be sure to acquire and use a Park TM-1 tensiometer. I only build my own wheels, so I don't bother with a trueing stand or dish tool - I use my bike, flipping the wheel to get the dish correct.

seeker333

Asymmetrically drilled rims with 135mm OLD (and preferably 559 BSD) are your best bet for wheel longevity. Butted spokes (Wheelsmith) help with fatigue failure and rotating weight. Building around an old, used 7-speed hub may not be ideal, but it will perhaps help with dish (I would definitely inspect cups for erosion before building). I built a set of Deore DX hubs with Velocity Synergy rims and ended up virtually dishless. It's nice to have 110-120 kgf on DS and NDS spokes. Nyloc nipples are available now, may want to try them (although I prefer brass to aluminum).

Previous poster mentioned deep rims as an advantage (at cost of rotating weight), Velocity Dyad is such a rim and has been a popular choice for tourists for the past decade or more. One rarely finds good wheel parts locally in desired configuration, and so most end up ordering rims, spokes, hubs, nipples, etc. It is a normal, necessary part of the process of getting the wheels you want.

https://www.velocityusa.com/product/...ations/touring

Good luck getting your LBS to build wheels - most quit doing this years ago, nowadays they only order new wheels. You usually have to DIY or pay a dedicated wheelbuilder (who also normally stock hard-to-find wheel parts).

Frankly, most people who post in this forum soon give up trying to manage the "touring wheelbuilding" process and relent to the LBS ordering a close compromise wheelset.

djb

hey chris, I didnt see this stuff about a wheel build.
Do check the width of the kuwa rear hub. Seems to me that my caravan is traditional 126 or whatever it was at that time, although not an issue if you are using the original hub that was in it.
I would open the orig hub to see if the cones are damaged or have really big scoring in them, sometimes older hubs that were neglected and or overtightened can be so so, and given that you are paying to have a wheel built up......

oh, also in case you have ever considered getting some really cheap 8 spd shifters at a bike coop or something, do also check out that that rear hub would be able to take a 8 speed cassette (I kind of assume its cassette, and not a freewheel that screws on)
I have a commuter bike that I fi\xed up and looked into changing it to 8 or 9 speed, but finally realized that the cheap hub it had was specifically too short to take 8 or 9 spd stuff, so I didnt have the option. Would have had to buy a new rear wheel for it , or hub, so just left it as is as its my commuter so its fine.

Russ Roth

I'm a big rider with a summer weight of 265, my touring bike weighs 25lb unloaded and I run Dyads with 32h. I'm also using a 13/14 single butted spoke from wheelsmith. If you're really worried about things being strong enough I would discourage using a 30+ year old base model hub. When that was produced rsx(modern Sora) and rx100(modern tiagra) were above it making it Claris level at best and tourney worst case. Not something great to spend good money rebuilding.
I'd go minimum 105 if road spaced, space your frame to 130 if steel and currently 126, and lx if 135 spacing. If you like classic stuff the buy nos, 30+ yo new mid-range stuff will still be decent. 30yo used lower end stuff won't be.

Chrisp72

Gentlemen...thanks again for all you insights on this. I'm going to take apart the Kuwahara wheelset once I get the spoke wrench, which is on order, and see what the hub is like. I'll see what the bearings are like and measure the axle to see what the spacing is on the rear of the bike. I'll also get the LBS wheelbuilder to put her two cents in and see if it will work before I buy the spokes for it. It's a fair point that there could be issues with the hub and if there is I'll buy a NOS hub. I currently have a 32hole 105 10speed hub with a Mavic Open Pro wheel on it. I figure the spacing on the bike is 130 as this hub fits. I can get used to riding the bike as it is set up currently but I want to have another wheelset for loaded touring, which I'm getting more and more excited about with each day.

This is a good way for me to learn about the hobby and geek out with components and mechanic knowledge. I've dreamed of being a bicycle mechanic and I had a chance to work in a bike shop while living out in BC. I ended up buying bike parts with my earnings so I realized quickly that it would be difficult to pay the bills at home. Now that bicycling is seeing a resurgence this project could lead to something new, over and above the bike touring. I don't think the pay is particularly good for bicycle mechanics but I enjoy working on my own bicycle and the skills could help out in the field. Maybe I will be the one to help out a newbie on this forum someday with the knowledge I pick up here and now.

I had some road bikes out is BC as well and really enjoyed using them for commuting. I'm not competitive by nature and I don't have the discipline to race so my cycling was centered around getting to and from work. I think I'll enjoy the solitude of bicycle touring and plan to stick with the custom wheels. Velocity rims are hard to come by here in Canada on the East side so I'll have to try something else. Hopefully the Archetypes can fill that niche.

I really appreciate all your input and the time it takes for you to type these messages is valued by me. I'm enjoying this experience very much. I wish I had started with this forum earlier but better late than never.

djb

I want to mention that I've always found it helpful to have a good relationship with mechanics at a bike store. I've often asked and paid them to double check my work, and t letting them know that I want to learn to do stuff on my own so I'm better prepared when touring.

and yes, touring is a lovely calming activity, and knowing your bike mechanically is a real bonus, and knowing it's in great shape generally means a lot less chance of mechanical problems on a trip.

tish4398

I weigh 230 lbs and my Velocity Dyad 36 hole 700c mounted on an XT hub has taken me 2 times across the USA, across Japan, Thailand, and numerous credit card trips. No broken spokes, retrued every so often. Still going strong. I say I gotten my money out of that wheel.

mstateglfr 

H plus son archetype rims- love em. I have 2 sets and a third set of the company's hydra rim.
They look good, are a good weight and quality for the price, and build up easily(compared to some other rims at this price).

I have a 36h set of archetypes laced to modern 105 hubs with butted spokes. I am 225# and used the wheels with my old gravel bike and have used them for loaded touring too.
Point is, I have used that rim with 36 spokes way harder than what your plans are.

Go enjoy them.

Paul J

Quick note, remember to take your cog set off before you start taking the spokes out. You probably already know that but thought I'd remind you.

Chrisp72

All right...

I've been running into a lot of issues finding a 36 hole, 130mm spaced rear hub that's in better shape and no luck with reasonable rims in 36 either. I balked at buying the Archetype.., I had sent an etransfer but ended up cancelling it before it was accepted.

On my touring bike currently I have a 10 speed Shimano 105 hub laced to a Mavic Open Pro with 32 eyelets. It's got a 32mm Panaracer Gravel King tire. The front has a Syncros hub instead of the Shimano. They're both 32 eyelets.

I really want to build a rear wheel but I think I would be better served purchasing tools so I can do other things on the bike that would improve the ride. I'll test out the wheels with added weight until I feel comfortable with them...ie...trust them. The rear wheel will be a dream for now.

I've acquired a Phil Wood front hub with 36holes mated to a Velocity Dyad rim. I think it's got butted spokes. In the future I'll mate it to a Phil Wood rear hub so I'll start to save my cash and look forward to the build. I would like to put a Dyad on it as well so I'll be looking out for that too. The hunt is on.

I feel a bit better mentally with riding a 32 hole wheelset on a loaded touring rig. It's not the accident waiting to happen that I thought it would be.

This thread has been good in that I've learned a bit about wheels and gearing. I'll aim to put a smaller chainring on the crank. Now to go on a hunt for tools.

djb

And don't forget, it's not hard to buy a new 36 spoke reasonable wheel for 100 and a bit, and then there's always finding a good used wheel, although that's tricky for not getting something so so.

anyway, have fun working on stuff, and cheaper tools can be fine too, depends of course on the tool.

I'd say most important thing too is getting your arse on a bike and putting kms in those legs.

veganbikes

I am a touch heavier and my current touring wheelset is 32h on WTB Frequency CX rims laced to a Paul Cassette hub at the rear and a SON Dynamo hub at the front with Sapim strong spokes and SecureLock Brass Nipples. If I had to do it again I would probably swap to White Industries XMR rear hub and maybe Dyad rims. The only reason for the rear hub switch is simply because I9 stopped making the freehub for Paul so he can no longer make those hubs. It is a fantastic hub with excellent engagement. The rim swap would be something a little wider and MUSA but the WTB rims are just fine.

Jeremiesmith77

I am 6’5”, 275-285 lbs and ride about 5000 miles a year. I used to have TONS of problems with spokes and wheels coming out of true until I found these bombproof monsters.

I have a rim brake set for the touring bike and disc brake set for the gravel bike. They are inexpensive but shockingly strong for the price. I have never had a single issue in many thousands of miles.

If you get them, take em to a shop and have all the spokes re-tensioned after a few rides and then forget about your wheel... combine with Schwalbe Marathon Plus Tires and your ready for any big tour.

https://www.modernbike.com/product-2...SABEgIYYPD_BwE

Chrisp72

Jeremiesmith...that's an awesome looking wheel for the price. The spacing on my rear hub has to be 130mm as it's an older touring frame I'm riding. In the future I'll look at this website for wheelsets though to see what's available from them. I think it's my destiny to have a wheel laced and sourced from a local bike shop...I found an older wheel in my locker that I was going to use when I had dreams of riding really fast on a road bike. I recently picked up some spoke wrenches so I can disassemble it and use the 9 speed Dura Ace hub if need be. The hubs are only 32 hold otherwise my ideal perfect rear wheel would be a lot closer to completion. I'll start saving for something sturdier....

Chrisp72

djb...You're right about just getting on the bike. As soon as the destination opens I'm that much closer to being on the road. Until then all this planning is helping me stay sane.

rifraf

+1 with Tourist in MSN's suggestions.

With regards to a 7speed cassette on a 8-10 speed freebub, from memory, what's needed is a 4.5mm spacer.
I'm pretty sure that was the method I followed from Sheldon Browns pages when I replaced a sachs 3x7 dual drive with the uprated Sram version (dual drive). I already had new 7 speed shifters and cassette at the time and didn't want the added expense of upgrading the entire gear system after paying wheelbuilder.com to custom build a new set of wheels around a dynohub and Sram dual drive.
I was riding a Moulton APB at the time.

Being a heavier rider, I've always opted for 36 spoked hubs, although had my IGH and Dynohub accepted 40, I'd have likely opted for 40 spokes.

Buying a disk hub is worthy of consideration for future upgrades of frame.

I use Velocity Dyads and have done for some years now and will likely continue to do so for the future should they be available.

Edit: confirmed spacer measurement - "The wider 8/9/10-speed freehub body requires a 4.5 mm spacer behind a 7-speed cassette."
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7-7.shtml

Chrisp72

rifraf...I think a new hub will be in the cards for a new wheel. I like the idea of going 36 hole but I see so many 32 hole hubs available. I guess the majority of riders can use the 32s...

I hadn't thought of getting a disk brake setup on any bicycle. I had used disk brakes on a DeKerf mountain bike and I liked the stopping power, so it might be a good idea. That raises a whole new conversation or thread... I'm not thinking of changing the frameset yet but who knows...after I take my maiden voyage I'll know more about how the current brakes work on a good sized downhill heading to the campground. I'll see what's needed and judge accordingly.

djb

A quick note on disc setups, everything has to be designed for it, the fork especially, the wheels, the frame for the rear brake.... its never something that you can just add on.