Cyclists' safety ... on the road
#51
hoppipola
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@mcours2006 : generalizing that all drivers consider cyclists as an impediment is not fair : what about drivers that ride on weekends for example ? do you really think that driving a car turns them into apathetic beasts ? what about all the drivers that loved cycling when they were kids but this sick society forced them to use a car ? don't you think they might have some sympathy for you ? what about drivers that happen to think about switching to bikes but are still hesitant, don't you think they can be affected by the attitudes frustrated cyclists so eagerly exhibit ? what about a dangerous driver pissed by all the lights he has to endure : won't he envy a cyclist not giving a damn about them ? won't that make him even more dangerous ?
We are the weak minority here, we should act reasonably and consider seriously anything that can make the streets safer for us.
If believing that small actions matter in the long run make me naive, that's okay for me. But i am sure that even if we won't enjoy their fruits during our lifetime, i am sure they are out there generating other small changes and so forth. Societies change little by little.
@Lesli: thank you too
@KraneXL: sounds like you feel a moral responsibilty to reciprocate .. How do you talk to them ?
@downhillmaster: Sorry for missing the nuance.. Let's rephrase the question : On what basis do you claim that virtually every adult knows right from wrong?
Besides, why would missing the (implicit) nuance invalidate what i am saying ?
Speaking of nuances, what happened to me wasn't an incident: it was an accident. I was almost killed by a hit-and-run driver. The accident happened because i broke my taillight and didn't buy a new one. I could have been furious about the driver leaving me behind bleeding on the pavement in the middle of nowhere. It might have even gained me a bit of your sympathy, but that's not what matters. I made a mistake and i want others to avoid it.
@Daniel4: looks like the discussion is becoming burdensome.. I didn't intend to confront anyone, i am just trying to answer all the people who bothered to engage in this topic.
@Hypno Toad: they infuriate me too. i deal with really dangerous situations every single day. i live in a country where bus drivers can get mad at you because you are standing in their way, waiting for the lights to turn green. What good does getting mad in such a situation ? go to the drivers window and tell him about the weather, the heat will immediately go away . Getting angry in a place where nobody gives a damn about anything is ABSURD.
In the end, i had to learn to appreciate the bike, healthy legs, paved roads and food when i get back home.
So please understand that i'm not focusing on drivers' feelings. In fact, i couldn't care less about their feelings if it wasn't for the fact that my life depends on them.
Hate the sin, love the sinner. That's ghandi's words.
We are the weak minority here, we should act reasonably and consider seriously anything that can make the streets safer for us.
If believing that small actions matter in the long run make me naive, that's okay for me. But i am sure that even if we won't enjoy their fruits during our lifetime, i am sure they are out there generating other small changes and so forth. Societies change little by little.
@Lesli: thank you too
@KraneXL: sounds like you feel a moral responsibilty to reciprocate .. How do you talk to them ?
@downhillmaster: Sorry for missing the nuance.. Let's rephrase the question : On what basis do you claim that virtually every adult knows right from wrong?
Besides, why would missing the (implicit) nuance invalidate what i am saying ?
Speaking of nuances, what happened to me wasn't an incident: it was an accident. I was almost killed by a hit-and-run driver. The accident happened because i broke my taillight and didn't buy a new one. I could have been furious about the driver leaving me behind bleeding on the pavement in the middle of nowhere. It might have even gained me a bit of your sympathy, but that's not what matters. I made a mistake and i want others to avoid it.
@Daniel4: looks like the discussion is becoming burdensome.. I didn't intend to confront anyone, i am just trying to answer all the people who bothered to engage in this topic.
@Hypno Toad: they infuriate me too. i deal with really dangerous situations every single day. i live in a country where bus drivers can get mad at you because you are standing in their way, waiting for the lights to turn green. What good does getting mad in such a situation ? go to the drivers window and tell him about the weather, the heat will immediately go away . Getting angry in a place where nobody gives a damn about anything is ABSURD.
In the end, i had to learn to appreciate the bike, healthy legs, paved roads and food when i get back home.
So please understand that i'm not focusing on drivers' feelings. In fact, i couldn't care less about their feelings if it wasn't for the fact that my life depends on them.
Hate the sin, love the sinner. That's ghandi's words.
#52
☢
@mcours2006 : generalizing that all drivers consider cyclists as an impediment is not fair : what about drivers that ride on weekends for example ? do you really think that driving a car turns them into apathetic beasts ? what about all the drivers that loved cycling when they were kids but this sick society forced them to use a car ? don't you think they might have some sympathy for you ? what about drivers that happen to think about switching to bikes but are still hesitant, don't you think they can be affected by the attitudes frustrated cyclists so eagerly exhibit ? what about a dangerous driver pissed by all the lights he has to endure : won't he envy a cyclist not giving a damn about them ? won't that make him even more dangerous ?
We are the weak minority here, we should act reasonably and consider seriously anything that can make the streets safer for us.
If believing that small actions matter in the long run make me naive, that's okay for me. But i am sure that even if we won't enjoy their fruits during our lifetime, i am sure they are out there generating other small changes and so forth. Societies change little by little.
@Lesli: thank you too
@KraneXL: sounds like you feel a moral responsibilty to reciprocate .. How do you talk to them ?
@downhillmaster: Sorry for missing the nuance.. Let's rephrase the question : On what basis do you claim that virtually every adult knows right from wrong?
Besides, why would missing the (implicit) nuance invalidate what i am saying ?
Speaking of nuances, what happened to me wasn't an incident: it was an accident. I was almost killed by a hit-and-run driver. The accident happened because i broke my taillight and didn't buy a new one. I could have been furious about the driver leaving me behind bleeding on the pavement in the middle of nowhere. It might have even gained me a bit of your sympathy, but that's not what matters. I made a mistake and i want others to avoid it.
@Daniel4: looks like the discussion is becoming burdensome.. I didn't intend to confront anyone, i am just trying to answer all the people who bothered to engage in this topic.
@Hypno Toad: they infuriate me too. i deal with really dangerous situations every single day. i live in a country where bus drivers can get mad at you because you are standing in their way, waiting for the lights to turn green. What good does getting mad in such a situation ? go to the drivers window and tell him about the weather, the heat will immediately go away . Getting angry in a place where nobody gives a damn about anything is ABSURD.
In the end, i had to learn to appreciate the bike, healthy legs, paved roads and food when i get back home.
So please understand that i'm not focusing on drivers' feelings. In fact, i couldn't care less about their feelings if it wasn't for the fact that my life depends on them.
Hate the sin, love the sinner. That's ghandi's words.
We are the weak minority here, we should act reasonably and consider seriously anything that can make the streets safer for us.
If believing that small actions matter in the long run make me naive, that's okay for me. But i am sure that even if we won't enjoy their fruits during our lifetime, i am sure they are out there generating other small changes and so forth. Societies change little by little.
@Lesli: thank you too
@KraneXL: sounds like you feel a moral responsibilty to reciprocate .. How do you talk to them ?
@downhillmaster: Sorry for missing the nuance.. Let's rephrase the question : On what basis do you claim that virtually every adult knows right from wrong?
Besides, why would missing the (implicit) nuance invalidate what i am saying ?
Speaking of nuances, what happened to me wasn't an incident: it was an accident. I was almost killed by a hit-and-run driver. The accident happened because i broke my taillight and didn't buy a new one. I could have been furious about the driver leaving me behind bleeding on the pavement in the middle of nowhere. It might have even gained me a bit of your sympathy, but that's not what matters. I made a mistake and i want others to avoid it.
@Daniel4: looks like the discussion is becoming burdensome.. I didn't intend to confront anyone, i am just trying to answer all the people who bothered to engage in this topic.
@Hypno Toad: they infuriate me too. i deal with really dangerous situations every single day. i live in a country where bus drivers can get mad at you because you are standing in their way, waiting for the lights to turn green. What good does getting mad in such a situation ? go to the drivers window and tell him about the weather, the heat will immediately go away . Getting angry in a place where nobody gives a damn about anything is ABSURD.
In the end, i had to learn to appreciate the bike, healthy legs, paved roads and food when i get back home.
So please understand that i'm not focusing on drivers' feelings. In fact, i couldn't care less about their feelings if it wasn't for the fact that my life depends on them.
Hate the sin, love the sinner. That's ghandi's words.
Now that you mention it, I sometimes find it fascination how some people can ignore this basic pattern of logic. Its pretty fundamental really, and we all lean the concept in middle school.
Maybe I would forget too if I wasn't tall, since people wanting to pass will almost instinctively cut the line at the tallest person. Anyway, being use to that, I preemptively leave them a space to pass.
#53
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@Hypno Toad: they infuriate me too. i deal with really dangerous situations every single day. i live in a country where bus drivers can get mad at you because you are standing in their way, waiting for the lights to turn green. What good does getting mad in such a situation ? go to the drivers window and tell him about the weather, the heat will immediately go away . Getting angry in a place where nobody gives a damn about anything is ABSURD.
In the end, i had to learn to appreciate the bike, healthy legs, paved roads and food when i get back home.
So please understand that i'm not focusing on drivers' feelings. In fact, i couldn't care less about their feelings if it wasn't for the fact that my life depends on them.
Hate the sin, love the sinner. That's ghandi's words.
I live in a bike friendly place; I've used a bike where it's better than Minneapolis, and I've used a bike in places much worse.
To the point of my fowl mouth, I rarely swear at any random person on the road. Most road rage drivers get a smile & wave. It took me many years to stop responding to angry people with anger. The rare times I give all the bad words, that's for somebody that has put my safety at risk. The most common time for all the swear words is other people on bikes doing something stupid because they think they are going to be a pro racers ...
#54
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I'd never heard that. You're standing in line, and line cutters choose the tallest person? Or is it when you're walking or running? Why?
#55
Senior Member
The responses in this thread is the irony of the topic. If you want to project your will on others for "their benefit", don't be surprised if you get an occasional ***-off response. You may get a friendly reply but a ***-off under breathe.
#56
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@ThermionicScott : i wasn't aware we were talking about scolding other cyclists. Do you care for other cyclists' safety when you encounter them on the road ? Have you had any experience with advising them ?
#57
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I've been looking for someone to scold me for nearly twenty years, the last one left in 2001.
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#58
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@mcours2006 : generalizing that all drivers consider cyclists as an impediment is not fair : what about drivers that ride on weekends for example ? do you really think that driving a car turns them into apathetic beasts ?
what about drivers that happen to think about switching to bikes but are still hesitant, don't you think they can be affected by the attitudes frustrated cyclists so eagerly exhibit ? what about a dangerous driver pissed by all the lights he has to endure : won't he envy a cyclist not giving a damn about them ? won't that make him even more dangerous ?
We are the weak minority here, we should act reasonably and consider seriously anything that can make the streets safer for us. If believing that small actions matter in the long run make me naive, that's okay for me. But i am sure that even if we won't enjoy their fruits during our lifetime, i am sure they are out there generating other small changes and so forth. Societies change little by little.
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#59
Senior Member
The irony is the OP is demonstrating to me why I don't give out unsolicited advice to strangers.
Last edited by Daniel4; 06-22-19 at 05:43 PM.
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#60
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Or is it when you're walking or running? Why?
#61
hoppipola
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@Hypno Toad : thank you for showing empathy.
@u235 and @Daniel4 : the responses in this thread are emotionally loaded. We are not prepared to deal with the constant danger of being killed. Feeling rebellious is a legitimate response. But it shouldn't make us blind to the consequences of our own behaviour.
@ThermionicScott : scolding involves an aggressive attitude. Advising on the other hand is friendly and neutral. when scolding you put yourself above, when advising you put yourself beside.
@mcours2006 : driving a car makes people bold and impatient, i agree. but the situation isn't as dramatic as you are putting it, otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing about it. Drivers can be courteous and patient. And they are more likely to be courteous and patient with a courteous and patient cyclist than with an agressive and impatient one. Exclamation point.
@u235 and @Daniel4 : the responses in this thread are emotionally loaded. We are not prepared to deal with the constant danger of being killed. Feeling rebellious is a legitimate response. But it shouldn't make us blind to the consequences of our own behaviour.
@ThermionicScott : scolding involves an aggressive attitude. Advising on the other hand is friendly and neutral. when scolding you put yourself above, when advising you put yourself beside.
@mcours2006 : driving a car makes people bold and impatient, i agree. but the situation isn't as dramatic as you are putting it, otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing about it. Drivers can be courteous and patient. And they are more likely to be courteous and patient with a courteous and patient cyclist than with an agressive and impatient one. Exclamation point.
#62
Senior Member
Do you know how many people have tried to "help me" by telling me I should be riding on the sidewalk instead of the road. They have the best intentions and probably truely feel they are trying to help me and looking out for my safety. Ok that's extreme but I do not consider it rebellious to not try to tell another random unknown adult that I might disagree with something they are doing. That's just me I guess.
Last edited by u235; 06-20-19 at 09:47 PM.
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#63
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That's called the internet.
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#64
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When someone has to say something like this, it is pretty clear the conversation has slipped the bonds of rationality and sadly, likely not even such a seemingly rational statement will be enough to rein it in.
#65
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Yep. I was told in a different forum yesterday how lame I am because I use Strava to gauge my rides and see how I am progressing. I am never going to have a KOM or likely be in the top 10 on any well ridden segment and I'm fine with that. I live in an area with a very active cycling community with a handful of colleges/universities with very successful cycling programs and none of the roadies that I've ridden with would ever tell me something like that to my face.
Anonymity allows people to be <whatevers>.
Anonymity allows people to be <whatevers>.
#66
hoppipola
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@u235 : I am afraid you misunderstood me. i never said that ignoring others or restraining oneself from commenting others behaviour was rebellious.
@Rollfast : exactly! The internet keeps us in a bubble where we are projecting our own feelings on everything we read. That's what the thread was about : getting out of the bubble and talking about cyclists' safety in the real world.
@Maelochs : there is a lot of misunderstanding in a real conversation, let alone in a forum..
@bakerjw : anonymity reveals what's inside the heads of other people. it's a blessing, in a way..
@Rollfast : exactly! The internet keeps us in a bubble where we are projecting our own feelings on everything we read. That's what the thread was about : getting out of the bubble and talking about cyclists' safety in the real world.
@Maelochs : there is a lot of misunderstanding in a real conversation, let alone in a forum..
@bakerjw : anonymity reveals what's inside the heads of other people. it's a blessing, in a way..
#67
☢
Do you know how many people have tried to "help me" by telling me I should be riding on the sidewalk instead of the road. They have the best intentions and probably truely feel they are trying to help me and looking out for my safety. Ok that's extreme but I do not consider it rebellious to not try to tell another random unknown adult that I might disagree with something they are doing. That's just me I guess.
If you saw spousal abuse would you intervene? What about child abuse? In these cases you're bound by moral, ethical and sometimes legal requirements to do something. Even if you ignore morality altogether, under the right circumstance you could be charged with a crime for failing to act.
#68
Senior Member
That would indicate the presumption that ALL adults are reasonable, rational, intelligent individuals. Is that what you believe? Otherwise, why would you take that philosophy?
If you saw spousal abuse would you intervene? What about child abuse? In these cases you're bound by moral, ethical and sometimes legal requirements to do something. Even if you ignore morality altogether, under the right circumstance you could be charged with a crime for failing to act.
If you saw spousal abuse would you intervene? What about child abuse? In these cases you're bound by moral, ethical and sometimes legal requirements to do something. Even if you ignore morality altogether, under the right circumstance you could be charged with a crime for failing to act.
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Last edited by u235; 06-21-19 at 11:09 PM.
#69
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Okay ... this thread has hit the A&S apogee and can only decay from here .... When doing an Idaho stop is equated with abusing children, the thread has hit A&S perfection.
We should all feel soiled.
We should all feel soiled.
#70
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Too much Gatorade. Mercy.
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#71
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People aren't rational on the road. Who would expect them to be rational on the internet?
#74
hoppipola
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On my last commute i saw a cyclist ahead of me by 500m crossing at one moment the highway only to take the (less busy) offramp of the opposing direction. I met him, later and warned that his shortcut was very dangerous (the ramp had a tight curve and only one lane which means meeting a truck would for sure kill him) besides he was wearing headphones with probably loud music because he didn't notice me. He was sorry and started complaining about his tiring commutes and his new job and thanked me for the advice..
Last edited by holytrousers; 06-29-19 at 05:37 PM.
#75
Newbie
Do you honestly think that you can change the way drivers feel about cyclists by stopping at stop signs and obeying ALL the rules of the road? You are much more naive than I first thought. They don't give a rat's ass about you regardless of what you do on the road. You, as a cyclist, and you as a fellow motorist, are only an impediment to them, keeping them from getting from A to B as quick as possible. Motorists have disdain for just about anyone on the road, in front of them, beside them, behind them, other motorists, pedestrians, cyclists, you name it. As @DrIsotope stated, the best you can hope for is that they run you over.