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Gears and Cadence

Old 08-12-19, 10:53 AM
  #126  
Jim from Boston
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Originally Posted by xroadcharlie
I think the ideal cadence for recreational cyclists depends largely on the load. Whether we are climbing a hill, fighting wind, or just normal cruising. The greater the load, The higher up in our candace range seems best.

I consider myself to be of about average fitness for a 62 year old man, And am working on monitoring my cadence, using my speed in gears. It's actually easier then it seems. I just memorize my minimum speeds in my 3 or 4 favorite gears (16, 18, & 20 kph in 4'th, 5'th and 6'th) using 54 rpm as a minimum cadence, and adding about 1/3 for max cruising cadence (54 + 18 = 72) and max speed (18 + 6 = 24 kph @72rpm in 5'th).

Seems to working very well so far. Sometimes I find my cadence too fast or too slow, And during normal cruising, Switching to a better gear really feels good. I think its a good way to protect these old knees, and make biking more pleasurable too with longer, Less fatiguing rides.
FWIW, I have posted, including earlier on this thread, that cadence decreases with increasing work load, as determined by Relative Perceived Exertion:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
…my own, seemingly unique system for cadence (primary) and gearing (secondary):
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
Cadence

I’m a 40+ year cyclist and I ride mainly for fitness. My training tool is the Relative Perceived Exertion (RPE) Scale, and I use cadence to chose gears to maintain my desired exertion.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
This year though, I decided to go for speed (intensity), and I use the semi-quantitative, standardized, but personally relevant system of The Borg Scale of Perceived Exertion (link) with my own particular adaptation.

Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
The RPE scale ranges from 6 to 17, with descriptions of the intensity. Multiply the RPE by 10 is the approximate heart rate. Jim's scale is the equivalent on a 0 to 100 scale, easier to think about:

RPE = 6, resting... Jim's scale = 10 to 20

RPE = 7, very, very light... Jim's scale = 20 to 30

RPE = 9, very light... Jim's scale = 30 to 40

11, fairly light...50 (my usual happy-go-lucky pace without thinking about it)

13, somewhat hard...60 (I have to focus to maintain)

15, hard...70 (I start breathing hard at about 30 seconds)

17, very hard (lactate threshold; breakpoint between hard but steady
breathing and labored with gasping)...80 (my predicted max HR)

19, very, very hard...90 to 100.
My basic training is to ride at my RPE of 50% for six miles to warm up, then cruise at an RPE of 60%, and do intervals (on hills) at 70%. I try to change gears to maintain a cadence of about 85-90 rpm on flats and rolling hills, and about 60 to 80 rpm on harder hills, to maintain my RPE.

Shift up to higher gears as the cadence rises, and shift down as the RPE increases.
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Old 08-12-19, 11:39 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by 63rickert

For the other person who says he's out of the conversation: Imagine a forum or publication in some other domain. Imagine someone writing for car enthusiasts and claiming he has a magic car that accelerates as well off the line in top gear as in first gear. Imagine the howls of laughter. Yet such claims are made constantly when the topic is cycling. It never ends.
Well, now you made me mad by making crap up, so I'm going to answer that.

No one said I accelerate from nothing in top gear. I'm not a moron, I just get back to high gear very quickly.

I spin when I first start pedaling, and then shift up when I hit about 15 mph, which I do very quickly. From there. it's about a couple seconds back to 20 mph.

You keep doing this "all or nothing" nonsense, and you appear to have a closet full of straw men. One gets a little tired answering junk you make up. I don't know if you pedal in perfect circles, but you sure do argue in them.

I did miss a couple of downshifts at some stoplights last Saturday (hey, I was tired after the first 120 miles), and I did start rolling in the 53x12 when the light turned green. It was a lot easier than I expected, but it takes too much out of me to actually accelerate slower.

For the umpteenth and final time, I vary my cadence a lot, and I don't bother measuring it. I don't start pedaling the same way I cruise in the flat, I don't climb hills the same way I cruise in the flat, and I don't "sprint" in the same way I cruise in the flat. You're the one with a fetish for a particular cadence which you are attempting to assign to everyone. All I'm saying is that I gravitate naturally to the high gears in most conditions because of the makeup of my muscles, and that my cadence follows from that.

BTW, I'm taking the fact that you tried this failed attempt at a cheap shot as an acknowledgement that you know I'm right that someone in slow cadence on a very high gear might have to recruit fast twitch muscles. Once you missed that doozy, you should have quit.
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Old 08-12-19, 11:45 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
FWIW, I have posted, including earlier on this thread, that cadence decreases with increasing work load, as determined by Relative Perceived Exertion:
I can do math, or I can ride a bike, but I ain't doing both at the same time!
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Old 08-12-19, 11:53 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
FWIW, I have posted, including earlier on this thread, that cadence decreases with increasing work load
Interesting. I've found something different — my cadence slightly increases with increasing power output.

Here's an updated graph of cadence vs. power for various grades, over the past couple of weeks.

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Old 08-12-19, 12:01 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Interesting. I've found something different — my cadence slightly increases with increasing power output.

Here's an updated graph of cadence vs. power for various grades, over the past couple of weeks.

Isn't this a function of how you're getting the additional power? If you're gearing up, the cadence could stay constant or even decrease slightly and you would still see a power increase. If you're holding the gearing constant or decreasing it, you have to pedal faster to get the additional output.

Seems pretty straightforward, so I must be missing something, right?
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Old 08-12-19, 12:01 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
If the gear is big enough, a person could need to recruit fast twitch in order to run it at 60 rpm.
If a rider must recruit fast twitch bundles to maintain a 60 cadence, then that rider is no longer "just riding along".
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Old 08-12-19, 12:09 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
If a rider must recruit fast twitch bundles to maintain a 60 cadence, then that rider is no longer "just riding along".
Well, since my original point was that I can ride along at 60-70 rpm at 52x12, I don't see how that refutes anything, but that's not where he stopped. "Fast twitch fibers are for sprinting. How could anyone who rides at 60 or 70 or 80 rpm know about sprinting? It would be like trying to start a car in fourth gear. Sprinting from 90rpm sorta happens but there's a lot of lag, like starting up a big V8 in third gear. Those who pedal slow have never met their fast twitch fibers. Those who pedal slow have large areas of cycling experience closed off. "

That's a howler--90 rpm pushing what? At 52x12 in the flat, there's not a lot of people who could do that on slow twitch alone. Also, that person would be going 31+ mph.

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Old 08-12-19, 12:14 PM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
If you're gearing up, the cadence could stay constant or even decrease slightly and you would still see a power increase. If you're holding the gearing constant or decreasing it, you have to pedal faster to get the additional output.
Gearing up or down is not the relevant point.

The relevant point is that these are my self-selected cadences at a given grade and power level.

As one would expect from exercise physiology, in order to delay muscle fatigue, as my power output increases, I naturally select a higher cadence. I suspect most people do.
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Old 08-12-19, 12:27 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Gearing up or down is not the relevant point.

The relevant point is that these are my self-selected cadences at a given grade and power level.

As one would expect from exercise physiology, in order to delay muscle fatigue, as my power output increases, I naturally select a higher cadence. I suspect most people do.
I must be missing something--I don't see how the gearing, power and cadence can possibly be truly independent variables--if you have a higher cadence at the same gearing, you will of course get higher power. Higher cadence at the same level of resistance would actually increase muscle fatigue, however.

Cadence is, however, the point at which we try to balance muscle fatigue against cardiovascular capacity, so I think people vary on this more than commonly believed. Exercise physiology has a lot of facets.
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Old 08-12-19, 12:33 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I don't see how the gearing, power and cadence can possibly be truly independent variables
Cadence is selected, gearing is merely a mechanism that enables the selected cadence.

Unless a rider runs out of gears on the top or bottom end, of course.
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Old 08-12-19, 12:41 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Cadence is selected, gearing is merely a mechanism that enables the selected cadence.

Unless a rider runs out of gears on the top or bottom end, of course.
I think we just hit a real-life glass half empty, half full thing. I totally view it the other way around--I select the gear for the task, and adjust the cadence accordingly.

Some of this might be a function of age--I'm more prone to running out of breath from high cadence than I am muscle fatigue from high gear, being an old fart with big muscles.
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Old 08-12-19, 12:48 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I select the gear for the task, and adjust the cadence accordingly.
By selecting the gear, you are subconsciously selecting the cadence.
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Old 08-12-19, 12:56 PM
  #138  
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I think monitoring our cadence is important, Especially for recreational riders because it is very easy to drift into an inefficient cadence and not be aware of it. Excessive perceived exertion on the other hand is easy to identify, It's too dammed hard to peddle. So it's good to have a rule of thumb, Which is why I try to keep my cruising cadence between 54 - 72 rpm with a moderate perceived exertion using the appropriate gear for the conditions. Set a range that works best for you. I can usually tell the old fashion way if I'm off the pace...by feel, But it is handy to have a tool to confirm it. And yes, I can do math and ride at the same time.

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Old 08-12-19, 01:07 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
By selecting the gear, you are subconsciously selecting the cadence.

By selecting the cadence, you are selecting the gear. They're so closely interrelated that both statements are true. We're balancing the same variables, we're just focusing on different ones as the independent variable to be manipulated.

This isn't a "I'm right, you're wrong" situation, just two different ways to solve the equation.
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Old 08-12-19, 01:51 PM
  #140  
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I haven't measured my cadence in a long time, so I guess it's time.

I have two fixed gear bikes, and I don't ride either very frequently. I've noticed I ride one slowly, the one with a 74-inch gear, and the other fast, the one with the 83-inch gear. My theory is that I have an unconscious preferred cadence, and I use it regardless of how hard I have to pedal.
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Old 08-12-19, 02:50 PM
  #141  
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Maybe your most efficient cadence is about the same as your running pace. That's my uneducated guess, based on nothing other than the fact that cycling uses muscles that evolved for running. Also, I've occasionally asked runners of my acquaintance to calculate their running pace and report back. (I always amaze them by correctly "guessing" that they run at between 90 and 95 strides per minute, the same as the cadence of the vast majority of competitive cyclists.)

Muscular runners maintain about that same pace, correct? I mean, they don't lumber along at a running pace of 50 or 60, do they?
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Old 08-12-19, 03:01 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by noglider
I have two fixed gear bikes, and I don't ride either very frequently. I've noticed I ride one slowly, the one with a 74-inch gear, and the other fast, the one with the 83-inch gear. My theory is that I have an unconscious preferred cadence, and I use it regardless of how hard I have to pedal.
Either that, or you have a maximum comfortable cadence and you avoid spinning faster than that, which would limit your speed on the 74-inch-gear bike.

FWIW, 74 inches is what most British time trialists used in the 1950s for sub-hour 25-mile time trials. They could have used bigger gears, of course, but they knew from experience that they would burn out before completing more than a few miles.
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Old 08-12-19, 03:09 PM
  #143  
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I give up. Slow pedaling wins. There have to be other whitebeards here who remember what spinning was. Who know what 'float the pedals' was. What avoid pedal pressure meant. Have to assume they learned their lesson and gave up a while ago. But that's done. Those who remember are all old and we'll be dead soon. When curious novices are told 60 is fine, 80 is fast, 90 is extreme, spinning is not going to happen. Any curious enough to do something so crazy as to actually try something different, to do an experiment, they won't get anywhere because all the signposts have been moved. And history is bunk. Only what sprang from my forehead in the past ten seconds has meaning.

Snowflakes who want to get all offended and angry over internet banter should maybe go ride their bike instead.
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Old 08-12-19, 03:22 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by 63rickert
I give up. Slow pedaling wins. There have to be other whitebeards here who remember what spinning was.
Along with smoking opens up the lungs, going hard will burst capillaries, and spinning is 100% slow twitch and sprinting 100% fast.
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Old 08-12-19, 04:02 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by 63rickert
I give up. Slow pedaling wins. There have to be other whitebeards here who remember what spinning was. Who know what 'float the pedals' was. What avoid pedal pressure meant. Have to assume they learned their lesson and gave up a while ago. But that's done. Those who remember are all old and we'll be dead soon. When curious novices are told 60 is fine, 80 is fast, 90 is extreme, spinning is not going to happen. Any curious enough to do something so crazy as to actually try something different, to do an experiment, they won't get anywhere because all the signposts have been moved. And history is bunk. Only what sprang from my forehead in the past ten seconds has meaning.

Snowflakes who want to get all offended and angry over internet banter should maybe go ride their bike instead.
So lately I've been using my smaller front chain ring when riding with my wife. She averages 14mph rides, I average 18. I figured it would even us out. What I found by using the smaller ring-something I rarely used before, is I can still get up to 18-22 mph and it almost feels like I'm not actually pushing into the pedals...is this pedal float?
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Old 08-12-19, 04:09 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by xroadcharlie
I think the ideal cadence for recreational cyclists depends largely on the load. Whether we are climbing a hill, fighting wind, or just normal cruising. The greater the load, Higher up in our candace range seems best if we want to maintain the same speed.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
FWIW, I have posted, including earlier on this thread, that cadence decreases with increasing work load, as determined by Relative Perceived Exertion:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
The RPE scale ranges from 6 to 17, with descriptions of the intensity. Multiply the RPE by 10 is the approximate heart rate. Jim's scale is the equivalent on a 0 to 100 scale, easier to think about...:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
...My basic training is to ride at my RPE of 50% for six miles to warm up, then cruise at an RPE of 60%, and do intervals (on hills) at 70%. I try to change gears to maintain a cadence of about 85-90 rpm on flats and rolling hills, and about 60 to 80 rpm on harder hills, to maintain my RPE. Shift up to higher gears as the cadence rises, and shift down as the RPE increases.
Originally Posted by terrymorse
Interesting. I've found something different — my cadence slightly increases with increasing power output.
Originally Posted by livedarklions
I must be missing something--I don't see how the gearing, power and cadence can possibly be truly independent variables--if you have a higher cadence at the same gearing, you will of course get higher power. Higher cadence at the same level of resistance [load] would actually increase muscle fatigue [increased perceived exertion], however.

Cadence is, however, the point at which we try to balance muscle fatigue against cardiovascular capacity [perceived exertion], so I think people vary on this more than commonly believed. Exercise physiology has a lot of facets.
Originally Posted by livedarklions
I can do math, or I can ride a bike, but I ain't doing both at the same time!
In my description of training using Relative Perceived Exertion (RPE),

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutriti...ce/borg-scale/

when workload increases, e.g., while going up uphill, in order to maintain a constant RPE (or power level) the cadence will decrease, along with the speed.

Obviously to maintain a constant speed going uphill, the gearing must increase at the same cadence, or the cadence must increase at the same gearing, in either case increasing the RPE. I think of RPE / power as the common currency between cadence, gearing, and speed.

For me, I have described my training pace RPE is 60% at 85-90 rpm, i.e. faster than routine riding of 50%; and intervals on hills at 70% with a cadence of about 60 to 80. Workoad will vary with degree of incline, and wind speed / direction but RPE is my set point. Assigning a number keeps me focused to maintain it.

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Old 08-12-19, 04:14 PM
  #147  
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When I did my fitting 3 years ago, I was told to try to get into 80-90 cadence since I was looking for longer rides than time trials.
It kind of makes sense for me because as mentioned ^^^^, I feel I end up doing less effort on higher cadence than lower overall.

I got a crash couple months ago and my cheap bike computer is gone. I used to keep around 90 on flats and was pretty ok for me.
Got a new bike computer but didn't put on the bike yet.
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Old 08-12-19, 08:10 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by 63rickert
I give up. Slow pedaling wins. There have to be other whitebeards here who remember what spinning was. Who know what 'float the pedals' was. What avoid pedal pressure meant. Have to assume they learned their lesson and gave up a while ago. But that's done. Those who remember are all old and we'll be dead soon. When curious novices are told 60 is fine, 80 is fast, 90 is extreme, spinning is not going to happen. Any curious enough to do something so crazy as to actually try something different, to do an experiment, they won't get anywhere because all the signposts have been moved. And history is bunk. Only what sprang from my forehead in the past ten seconds has meaning.

Snowflakes who want to get all offended and angry over internet banter should maybe go ride their bike instead.
Or maybe you should just learn how to keep a little dignity when you lose an argument instead of making crap up about the person you're arguing with. You shouldn't be calling people snowflakes after that little meltdown.

Sorry you feel bad because no one bought your phony baloney "wisdom".

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Old 08-12-19, 08:25 PM
  #149  
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I sometimes focus on the sensation of having my feet float inside the shoes while pedaling.
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Old 08-12-19, 10:29 PM
  #150  
noglider 
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Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

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Give it a rest, guys. It's not entertaining.
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