Gears and Cadence
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I think the ideal cadence for recreational cyclists depends largely on the load. Whether we are climbing a hill, fighting wind, or just normal cruising. The greater the load, The higher up in our candace range seems best.
I consider myself to be of about average fitness for a 62 year old man, And am working on monitoring my cadence, using my speed in gears. It's actually easier then it seems. I just memorize my minimum speeds in my 3 or 4 favorite gears (16, 18, & 20 kph in 4'th, 5'th and 6'th) using 54 rpm as a minimum cadence, and adding about 1/3 for max cruising cadence (54 + 18 = 72) and max speed (18 + 6 = 24 kph @72rpm in 5'th).
Seems to working very well so far. Sometimes I find my cadence too fast or too slow, And during normal cruising, Switching to a better gear really feels good. I think its a good way to protect these old knees, and make biking more pleasurable too with longer, Less fatiguing rides.
I consider myself to be of about average fitness for a 62 year old man, And am working on monitoring my cadence, using my speed in gears. It's actually easier then it seems. I just memorize my minimum speeds in my 3 or 4 favorite gears (16, 18, & 20 kph in 4'th, 5'th and 6'th) using 54 rpm as a minimum cadence, and adding about 1/3 for max cruising cadence (54 + 18 = 72) and max speed (18 + 6 = 24 kph @72rpm in 5'th).
Seems to working very well so far. Sometimes I find my cadence too fast or too slow, And during normal cruising, Switching to a better gear really feels good. I think its a good way to protect these old knees, and make biking more pleasurable too with longer, Less fatiguing rides.
…my own, seemingly unique system for cadence (primary) and gearing (secondary):
Cadence
I’m a 40+ year cyclist and I ride mainly for fitness. My training tool is the Relative Perceived Exertion (RPE) Scale, and I use cadence to chose gears to maintain my desired exertion.
My basic training is to ride at my RPE of 50% for six miles to warm up, then cruise at an RPE of 60%, and do intervals (on hills) at 70%. I try to change gears to maintain a cadence of about 85-90 rpm on flats and rolling hills, and about 60 to 80 rpm on harder hills, to maintain my RPE.
Shift up to higher gears as the cadence rises, and shift down as the RPE increases.
I’m a 40+ year cyclist and I ride mainly for fitness. My training tool is the Relative Perceived Exertion (RPE) Scale, and I use cadence to chose gears to maintain my desired exertion.
This year though, I decided to go for speed (intensity), and I use the semi-quantitative, standardized, but personally relevant system of The Borg Scale of Perceived Exertion (link) with my own particular adaptation.
The RPE scale ranges from 6 to 17, with descriptions of the intensity. Multiply the RPE by 10 is the approximate heart rate. Jim's scale is the equivalent on a 0 to 100 scale, easier to think about:
RPE = 6, resting... Jim's scale = 10 to 20
RPE = 7, very, very light... Jim's scale = 20 to 30
RPE = 9, very light... Jim's scale = 30 to 40
11, fairly light...50 (my usual happy-go-lucky pace without thinking about it)
13, somewhat hard...60 (I have to focus to maintain)
15, hard...70 (I start breathing hard at about 30 seconds)
17, very hard (lactate threshold; breakpoint between hard but steady
breathing and labored with gasping)...80 (my predicted max HR)
19, very, very hard...90 to 100.
RPE = 6, resting... Jim's scale = 10 to 20
RPE = 7, very, very light... Jim's scale = 20 to 30
RPE = 9, very light... Jim's scale = 30 to 40
11, fairly light...50 (my usual happy-go-lucky pace without thinking about it)
13, somewhat hard...60 (I have to focus to maintain)
15, hard...70 (I start breathing hard at about 30 seconds)
17, very hard (lactate threshold; breakpoint between hard but steady
breathing and labored with gasping)...80 (my predicted max HR)
19, very, very hard...90 to 100.
Shift up to higher gears as the cadence rises, and shift down as the RPE increases.
#127
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For the other person who says he's out of the conversation: Imagine a forum or publication in some other domain. Imagine someone writing for car enthusiasts and claiming he has a magic car that accelerates as well off the line in top gear as in first gear. Imagine the howls of laughter. Yet such claims are made constantly when the topic is cycling. It never ends.
No one said I accelerate from nothing in top gear. I'm not a moron, I just get back to high gear very quickly.
I spin when I first start pedaling, and then shift up when I hit about 15 mph, which I do very quickly. From there. it's about a couple seconds back to 20 mph.
You keep doing this "all or nothing" nonsense, and you appear to have a closet full of straw men. One gets a little tired answering junk you make up. I don't know if you pedal in perfect circles, but you sure do argue in them.
I did miss a couple of downshifts at some stoplights last Saturday (hey, I was tired after the first 120 miles), and I did start rolling in the 53x12 when the light turned green. It was a lot easier than I expected, but it takes too much out of me to actually accelerate slower.
For the umpteenth and final time, I vary my cadence a lot, and I don't bother measuring it. I don't start pedaling the same way I cruise in the flat, I don't climb hills the same way I cruise in the flat, and I don't "sprint" in the same way I cruise in the flat. You're the one with a fetish for a particular cadence which you are attempting to assign to everyone. All I'm saying is that I gravitate naturally to the high gears in most conditions because of the makeup of my muscles, and that my cadence follows from that.
BTW, I'm taking the fact that you tried this failed attempt at a cheap shot as an acknowledgement that you know I'm right that someone in slow cadence on a very high gear might have to recruit fast twitch muscles. Once you missed that doozy, you should have quit.
#128
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#129
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Here's an updated graph of cadence vs. power for various grades, over the past couple of weeks.
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#130
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Seems pretty straightforward, so I must be missing something, right?
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If a rider must recruit fast twitch bundles to maintain a 60 cadence, then that rider is no longer "just riding along".
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That's a howler--90 rpm pushing what? At 52x12 in the flat, there's not a lot of people who could do that on slow twitch alone. Also, that person would be going 31+ mph.
Last edited by livedarklions; 08-12-19 at 12:14 PM.
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The relevant point is that these are my self-selected cadences at a given grade and power level.
As one would expect from exercise physiology, in order to delay muscle fatigue, as my power output increases, I naturally select a higher cadence. I suspect most people do.
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#134
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Gearing up or down is not the relevant point.
The relevant point is that these are my self-selected cadences at a given grade and power level.
As one would expect from exercise physiology, in order to delay muscle fatigue, as my power output increases, I naturally select a higher cadence. I suspect most people do.
The relevant point is that these are my self-selected cadences at a given grade and power level.
As one would expect from exercise physiology, in order to delay muscle fatigue, as my power output increases, I naturally select a higher cadence. I suspect most people do.
Cadence is, however, the point at which we try to balance muscle fatigue against cardiovascular capacity, so I think people vary on this more than commonly believed. Exercise physiology has a lot of facets.
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Unless a rider runs out of gears on the top or bottom end, of course.
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Some of this might be a function of age--I'm more prone to running out of breath from high cadence than I am muscle fatigue from high gear, being an old fart with big muscles.
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#138
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I think monitoring our cadence is important, Especially for recreational riders because it is very easy to drift into an inefficient cadence and not be aware of it. Excessive perceived exertion on the other hand is easy to identify, It's too dammed hard to peddle. So it's good to have a rule of thumb, Which is why I try to keep my cruising cadence between 54 - 72 rpm with a moderate perceived exertion using the appropriate gear for the conditions. Set a range that works best for you. I can usually tell the old fashion way if I'm off the pace...by feel, But it is handy to have a tool to confirm it. And yes, I can do math and ride at the same time.
Last edited by xroadcharlie; 08-12-19 at 01:12 PM.
#139
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By selecting the cadence, you are selecting the gear. They're so closely interrelated that both statements are true. We're balancing the same variables, we're just focusing on different ones as the independent variable to be manipulated.
This isn't a "I'm right, you're wrong" situation, just two different ways to solve the equation.
#140
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I haven't measured my cadence in a long time, so I guess it's time.
I have two fixed gear bikes, and I don't ride either very frequently. I've noticed I ride one slowly, the one with a 74-inch gear, and the other fast, the one with the 83-inch gear. My theory is that I have an unconscious preferred cadence, and I use it regardless of how hard I have to pedal.
I have two fixed gear bikes, and I don't ride either very frequently. I've noticed I ride one slowly, the one with a 74-inch gear, and the other fast, the one with the 83-inch gear. My theory is that I have an unconscious preferred cadence, and I use it regardless of how hard I have to pedal.
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#141
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Maybe your most efficient cadence is about the same as your running pace. That's my uneducated guess, based on nothing other than the fact that cycling uses muscles that evolved for running. Also, I've occasionally asked runners of my acquaintance to calculate their running pace and report back. (I always amaze them by correctly "guessing" that they run at between 90 and 95 strides per minute, the same as the cadence of the vast majority of competitive cyclists.)
Muscular runners maintain about that same pace, correct? I mean, they don't lumber along at a running pace of 50 or 60, do they?
Muscular runners maintain about that same pace, correct? I mean, they don't lumber along at a running pace of 50 or 60, do they?
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I have two fixed gear bikes, and I don't ride either very frequently. I've noticed I ride one slowly, the one with a 74-inch gear, and the other fast, the one with the 83-inch gear. My theory is that I have an unconscious preferred cadence, and I use it regardless of how hard I have to pedal.
FWIW, 74 inches is what most British time trialists used in the 1950s for sub-hour 25-mile time trials. They could have used bigger gears, of course, but they knew from experience that they would burn out before completing more than a few miles.
#143
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I give up. Slow pedaling wins. There have to be other whitebeards here who remember what spinning was. Who know what 'float the pedals' was. What avoid pedal pressure meant. Have to assume they learned their lesson and gave up a while ago. But that's done. Those who remember are all old and we'll be dead soon. When curious novices are told 60 is fine, 80 is fast, 90 is extreme, spinning is not going to happen. Any curious enough to do something so crazy as to actually try something different, to do an experiment, they won't get anywhere because all the signposts have been moved. And history is bunk. Only what sprang from my forehead in the past ten seconds has meaning.
Snowflakes who want to get all offended and angry over internet banter should maybe go ride their bike instead.
Snowflakes who want to get all offended and angry over internet banter should maybe go ride their bike instead.
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I give up. Slow pedaling wins. There have to be other whitebeards here who remember what spinning was. Who know what 'float the pedals' was. What avoid pedal pressure meant. Have to assume they learned their lesson and gave up a while ago. But that's done. Those who remember are all old and we'll be dead soon. When curious novices are told 60 is fine, 80 is fast, 90 is extreme, spinning is not going to happen. Any curious enough to do something so crazy as to actually try something different, to do an experiment, they won't get anywhere because all the signposts have been moved. And history is bunk. Only what sprang from my forehead in the past ten seconds has meaning.
Snowflakes who want to get all offended and angry over internet banter should maybe go ride their bike instead.
Snowflakes who want to get all offended and angry over internet banter should maybe go ride their bike instead.
#146
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I think the ideal cadence for recreational cyclists depends largely on the load. Whether we are climbing a hill, fighting wind, or just normal cruising. The greater the load, Higher up in our candace range seems best if we want to maintain the same speed.
FWIW, I have posted, including earlier on this thread, that cadence decreases with increasing work load, as determined by Relative Perceived Exertion:
The RPE scale ranges from 6 to 17, with descriptions of the intensity. Multiply the RPE by 10 is the approximate heart rate. Jim's scale is the equivalent on a 0 to 100 scale, easier to think about...:
...My basic training is to ride at my RPE of 50% for six miles to warm up, then cruise at an RPE of 60%, and do intervals (on hills) at 70%. I try to change gears to maintain a cadence of about 85-90 rpm on flats and rolling hills, and about 60 to 80 rpm on harder hills, to maintain my RPE. Shift up to higher gears as the cadence rises, and shift down as the RPE increases.
Interesting. I've found something different — my cadence slightly increases with increasing power output.
I must be missing something--I don't see how the gearing, power and cadence can possibly be truly independent variables--if you have a higher cadence at the same gearing, you will of course get higher power. Higher cadence at the same level of resistance [load] would actually increase muscle fatigue [increased perceived exertion], however.
Cadence is, however, the point at which we try to balance muscle fatigue against cardiovascular capacity [perceived exertion], so I think people vary on this more than commonly believed. Exercise physiology has a lot of facets.
Cadence is, however, the point at which we try to balance muscle fatigue against cardiovascular capacity [perceived exertion], so I think people vary on this more than commonly believed. Exercise physiology has a lot of facets.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutriti...ce/borg-scale/
when workload increases, e.g., while going up uphill, in order to maintain a constant RPE (or power level) the cadence will decrease, along with the speed.
Obviously to maintain a constant speed going uphill, the gearing must increase at the same cadence, or the cadence must increase at the same gearing, in either case increasing the RPE. I think of RPE / power as the common currency between cadence, gearing, and speed.
For me, I have described my training pace RPE is 60% at 85-90 rpm, i.e. faster than routine riding of 50%; and intervals on hills at 70% with a cadence of about 60 to 80. Workoad will vary with degree of incline, and wind speed / direction but RPE is my set point. Assigning a number keeps me focused to maintain it.
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 08-12-19 at 04:41 PM.
#147
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When I did my fitting 3 years ago, I was told to try to get into 80-90 cadence since I was looking for longer rides than time trials.
It kind of makes sense for me because as mentioned ^^^^, I feel I end up doing less effort on higher cadence than lower overall.
I got a crash couple months ago and my cheap bike computer is gone. I used to keep around 90 on flats and was pretty ok for me.
Got a new bike computer but didn't put on the bike yet.
It kind of makes sense for me because as mentioned ^^^^, I feel I end up doing less effort on higher cadence than lower overall.
I got a crash couple months ago and my cheap bike computer is gone. I used to keep around 90 on flats and was pretty ok for me.
Got a new bike computer but didn't put on the bike yet.
#148
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I give up. Slow pedaling wins. There have to be other whitebeards here who remember what spinning was. Who know what 'float the pedals' was. What avoid pedal pressure meant. Have to assume they learned their lesson and gave up a while ago. But that's done. Those who remember are all old and we'll be dead soon. When curious novices are told 60 is fine, 80 is fast, 90 is extreme, spinning is not going to happen. Any curious enough to do something so crazy as to actually try something different, to do an experiment, they won't get anywhere because all the signposts have been moved. And history is bunk. Only what sprang from my forehead in the past ten seconds has meaning.
Snowflakes who want to get all offended and angry over internet banter should maybe go ride their bike instead.
Snowflakes who want to get all offended and angry over internet banter should maybe go ride their bike instead.
Sorry you feel bad because no one bought your phony baloney "wisdom".
Last edited by livedarklions; 08-12-19 at 08:17 PM.
#150
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Give it a rest, guys. It's not entertaining.
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Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
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