CMC SanDiego

In a recent thread I saw Brooks B15 saddle which was identical to one that I own of unknown vintage. I'm wondering if there is a database or some other source of accumulated knowledge on Brooks saddles? Something that might help me identify the seats I use or have seen. I expect the things that could be telltale signs of a saddles age are the following

Brooks Badge shape or design (or lack of a badge) - I've seen a partial list with photos somewhere (maybe on Kurt's website)
Stamp shape and design, text
Frame material and design
Bag loops (or lack thereof)
Clamp style
Colors available
Rivet types

Here is the saddle I'm trying to get an age on. Brooks B15 with Oval design stating "Brooks B15 Champion S. SR" and "Made in Great Britain". There is no badge on the back of the saddle, and no bag loops. Rivets are standard stainless (or appear to be)

Any information would be helpful, and if enough is gathered to make it interesting, I may just start that database.

tony colegrave

These B.15 S.SR saddles frequently appear on eBay, usually 'NOS' and dated for sometime in 1967. The leather tops were probably made some years before that date, and might have been intended for some 'project' that never took place - similarly, though less frequently, B.66 T.SR models can also be found. Uniquely for 'B.15' models, these saddles are fitted with the same frames as the Professional model, without bagloops, and the rivets are the usual nickel-plated steel ones rather than stainless.

OLDYELLR

https://velobase.com/ListComponents.a...2-a90fca791ad1

pastorbobnlnh 

B15s are an odd bunch. I have three variations of B15s which don't match each other nor the one pictured by the OP.

The current B15 is the Swallow in Titanium, a very high-end model.


https://www.brooksengland.com/en/Shop...allow+Titanium

The original B15 in my collection came on an early '70s Schwinn Super Sport.


My other recent B15 came off a '71 Raleigh Super Course, although I don't think it was original to the bike. I'll need to take a picture of it. But is a different shape and size from the one pictured above.

CMC SanDiego

Tony,

Thanks for the information, since I don't yet have an example of all the Brooks saddles (I've got Professional, Swift, B17 and B15), I wouldn't have known that there were shared components.

I like the table OldYellr pointed me to at Velobase. I'd like to see if fleshed out a bit more, since there seem to be more than 1 kind of B15 for the time period listed (I've got another example that has a plastic Brooks tag, different stamp, and bag loops, but still isn't a "B15 Swallow").

pastorbobnlnh 

I took some pictures of the unusual B15 I mentioned earlier. I'll call it the B15N because it is very similar in shape and style to the B5N.





Side by side, B5N and B15N:



Skirt and side hole similarity.



Side by side with B15 and B15N, the differences are very noticeable.



But the logos on the B15 and the B15N are the same.



Hope this is helpful.

cudak888 

Bob, you mentioned you have a third that differs from both of those - in what way does it look different?

I'm almost certain that the saddle with the lacing holes is supposed to be a B.15N. Does it read "Champion Narrow?" If so, B15N. The wider one should read "Champion Standard."

EDIT: I'm pretty sure the stamping reads "Champion Narrow" on the B15N, in the last photo.

-Kurt

pastorbobnlnh 

Your young eyes are sharper than mine. I have a really hard time reading these.

The third B15 is the Swallow, which is what I thought I had--- but I was confused, I have the Swift. Once again, old age catching up with me.

pastorbobnlnh 

Kurt,

I just checked, and you are correct. The one from the Schwinn reads "Champion Standard" and the one from the Raleigh reads "Champion Narrow."

tony colegrave

'In the day' there were four different B.15 models - 'Champion' was the first, introduced in about 1933 and re-designated 'Champion Narrow' in about 1937 when the 'Champion Standard' was introduced, 'Champion Flyer' and 'Champion Swallow' came out after the war. These four models 'shadowed' their B.17 equivalents, but, in general, had plated tubular steel rivets instead of plated copper ones and an inferior quality of leather.

There was also a much earlier B.15 model, more than 100 years ago, but this was a significantly different piece of equipment.

CMC SanDiego

I love those photo's of old saddles. I've got a Wright's W3N which looks much like that B5N, except there are no lacing holes. I would agree that the leather appears to be thinner/of lesser quality than my other Brooks saddles

All of this discussion about B5s, B15s, and of course the well known B17 makes me wonder if there are B1, B2 (before the bomber), B3, B4 and so on models? I'd love to have the chance to poke around in old file cabinets at the Brooks factory (which I understand is in the original building, or at least one built during John Boultbee Brooks tenure running his company).

I recently found a copy of the original 1898 patent drawing online of the Lady's B18. I think its beautiful.

I can't even imagine what other designs they tried that never made it to market.

tony colegrave

The original Brooks factory (in Great Charles Street) is long since gone, and the current premises (in Downing Street , Smethwick) were acquired long after JBB died. Much of the Company's records was lost in a fire many years ago, and most of the rest has been 'disposed of' since then, although the Company did re-acquire an interesting collection of some of it's earlier catalogues a few years ago.
I'd doubt that the holes in the 'skirts' of B5N saddles, and some other models, were intended for lacing - more likely that they were influenced by the similar 'perforations' in many Ideale 'Record' models, and other French-made saddles?

nlerner

A good deal of historical Brooks info at Wallbike:

https://www.wallbike.com/brooksarchiv...eum/index.html

Neal

rideasy

There is indeed a Brooks B2 saddle, I have one.

clubman 

I think it eventually did make it to market. It's a Lycett...

RaleighSport

Isn't T-mar the brooks database?

Bicyclz

I can confirm that this particular embossed pattern was used by Brooks on a 1934/5 B73 Lady's saddle in my possession now.
I came across this thread whilst researching it, not realising the pattern on mine existed because it is quite faint!! (Thanks to Clubman for showing his pristine example: )
Came with a Raleigh loop frame from 1934 & looks to be original to the bike.


Close up here of the embossed pattern, which is faint but visible when you look closely! (This pic shows it with Neatsfoot oil applied & appears to be darker now.)
[IMG][/IMG]
I know this is an old thread, but might be of interest still.

Looks to be a rare, usable, early B73 model & I will add the details to Velobase anon.
The big rivets on the front of the back set of 6 make it early I believe because the B73 was introduced in 1935, I understand. The later 1930 catalogues of the B73s do not show the big, fat front rivets.

Here's the bike as found, with this saddle. 1934 from the SN.
[IMG][/IMG]

rhm

Since this thread has been bumped anyway, I'll say Amir is doing a pretty great job of putting together what OP asked for, namely a Brooks Database, on his Saddle Makers | saddlewax.com site.


One of these days I'll send him a bunch of photos I've collected. For now, here's one photo of a saddle I got a while back, and didn't know quite what it was:



If you can't read that, it says "BROOKS C.32 CHALLENGE MODEL."

The C.32 first appears in the 1933-1935 catalogs with a lozenge-shaped stamp; in the 1937 catalog with the elliptical stamp like mine; and in the 1938 catalog it has been renamed B.32. So my saddle would appear to date to 1937 or so. Pretty cool, huh?

Oddly, the catalog only says it's similar in shape to the B.17 narrow, but does not specify how it's different. Based on the one in my possession, I'd say it might be a little different, but I can't say how; clearly mine, being almost 80 years old, is a somewhat poor representation of what it once was.

arex

What's the purpose of the texturing on the left? Aesthetics, slide resistance..?

Bicyclz

I didn't 'bump' the thread, I added to it: ) Albeit with a considerable time lapse!

I couldn't agree more that Brooks needs a permanent, online, detailed database.
Wallbikes catalogue items do not all show when clicked on, so I wonder if it is maintained currently?
Either way, info posted here is always available later....

I check Saddlewax shortly: )

Bicyclz

Quick update here:
Saddlewax has the appropriate Brooks catalogues listed, some of which are courtesy of the V-CC, of which I am a long time member!
You learn something every day: )
Motto might be 'Do your research'!

JMONAY

Not to add to the confusion, but I have been up an down the interwebs and still have not been able to come across any info about my recent acquisition. I have what is labeled simply as a "Champion S." No B-xx designation on the logo, no stampings on the underside. I first checked Kurt's site and decided that it must be pre-mid-'50s based on the badge. It is a metal badge that does not say "England;" however, the letters are not raised like all other older examples pictured. That confused me. I then stumbled upon this thread and checked saddlewax.com. Nothing in the catalogs bore the name "Champion" without a B-xx name attached to it. The only saddle remotely resembling mine is the Champion Lightweight further down the page but that one has the cast aluminum rails. On that note, something tells me that the rails on my saddle may have been replaced. They are kind of shiny and kind of nice. Evidence shows that they have been polished on the outside but some corrosion is left on the inside of the spring coils.



It is as if somebody took the most confusing features a Brooks saddle could possibly have and threw them into one.

Or am I missing something painfully obvious and this saddle might actually be something quite a bit newer?

... Is this even a real Brooks?

rhm

@JMONAY,

I have one of those as well. I don't think it's quite that old. The etched aluminum badge suggests a date no earlier than the mid 70's. The flimsy thin leather suggests something even later, but I don't know. The unusually small stamp confuses the eye when you're looking at photos.

In general "Champion" designates a narrower style saddle; that is, narrow in comparison to a B.72 or B.66. The usual champion saddles were the B.17 and B.15 and they came in "Champion Standard" and "Champion Narrow" forms, with the narrow a little narrower than the standard.

Similarly, "S" designates a shorter style saddle, also sometimes called a lady's model.

So, obviously, your saddle has a Champion cantle plate and short rails/top; and it is a version of the B.66. I think if you google "B.66 Champion" and "B.66 Champion S" you'll find photos of very similar saddles.

A 'Flyer' is similar but has a single-rail frame.

Bicyclz

[QUOTE=JMONAY;
... Is this even a real Brooks?[/QUOTE]

It's a real Brooks, never fear, but you (or I) are not sure which particular one....
I've got Brooks with no nameplate.....

Brooks history has not been recorded very well, but that's not Brooks fault considering the changes of ownership over a very long period. Mostly pre-internet.
It's down to us as owners & enthusiasts to record the details for posterity I say: ) Once its online its there 'forever'.
Preferably here on BF!

Don't give up is my advice.
Seek & ye shall find: )

It's a nice saddle, so think positive & you'll enjoy riding on it anyway.

JMONAY

@rhm, thanks for the info! B66 Champion S does make sense. I knew it was a shorter, narrower version of something, just didn't know what. There is an identical one here with no holes as well. I suppose in the end, it doesn't matter as long as it's comfy. I have a standard B66 from the '80s that it compares to as well as a newer B67S. You are also right in that the leather is thinner. A quick google search does yield many with oval logos, excluding the new ones. Up until last night, I thought the oval logo was indicative of a saddle being over 60 years old but I stand corrected.
@Bicyclz I wasn't being completely serious about that last statement but it's good reassurance nonetheless I am always interested in tracking the evolution of this kind of thing, i.e. Raleigh bicycles, Sturmey-Archer hubs, Ford trucks, etc ... I only find it fitting that Brooks saddles joins the club. I suppose that's why I was so interested in finding more about my saddle to begin with. Anyway, if I do come across additional information at any point time, I will try to add to what has already been documented. Cheers