Dean V

Congrats on that sub 5hr century. That requires quite a high level of fitness to achieve at any age.
As to the OP, I sometimes ride without any data and am starting to do it more often. I just enjoy riding my bike more without feeling that there are certain numbers I have to achieve to make it worthwhile.

Doge

I know little about runners. Cycling collegiate team adult was the former NCAA running champ for CO I think. He stated he ran with RPE and did not use anything. I know of a few other cyclists. To date I don't know anyone at the top who states they use a PM to go faster. I posted the two of the fastest (Cam is not USA, but a local).
The fastest for the hour, Wiggins- didn't and couldn't because of rules.

I think you know I shopped my kid rowing and had a great time listening to the Princeton coach with his team that year, that won Nationals. They had the stuff. It was all about feel of the oar, boat swagger. They didn't use PM oars, or even the results from the machines. He built the boat based on what made the boat the fastest. Actually a normal thing where they have seat competition and move rowers around to see who makes the boat go faster. This is in spite of the ERG numbers.

So as posted above, I'm just looking for the elite cyclists that are public about using numbers. I don't think the elite do.

Seattle Forrest

A friend of mine has done dozens of marathons and several 50 mile runs. Like most runners, she goes by pace. Before a race, she sits down with the map and figures out where she needs to be at each hour. Not uncommon.

Doge

I'll tap out on runners. Not on fast cyclists. I presented two elite in video.

I saw it personally, which is just my opinion, but nobody local using a PM was faster than the ones that didn't. They didn't, and don't know or care the numbers in the weights. They do know who got the Strava KOM.

Seattle Forrest

Power meters are incredibly useful for training effectively, especially with any time limits. And training makes you faster. There's really no credible argument against this.

RChung

Wiggins absolutely positively used a PM in training and prep for the hour. Victor Campenaerts (who is the fastest for the hour) did, too. Peter Sagan uses a PM. All three of those guys are faster than your kid.

canklecat

Rosie might have gotten away with it, if she hadn't crossed the line wearing flip flops, carrying a beer and smoking a cigarette.

Doge

I don't think I posted about my kid, but thanks for the information. Yes, both would be faster for anything over 5 min*, certainly now, under that and I doubt you'd know. He's ridden with Peter and teammates several times.
​
My statement about Wiggins, as you know, is correct. There are no PMs used on any UCI track events (hour record). They are racing "Measurement Free", as are the two videos I posted above.
Please post the videos of those what say they ride to the numbers, as I did.

*Actually you can lookup Peace Race in Czech Republic ITT. I don't know Peter's health, but mine was recovering from sickness, being hit by a motorcycle and had the mechanic put the wheel on backwards, but did quite a bit faster time than Peter a few years before same course, same race, same age.

big chainring 

I ride with a Huret Multito.

Doge

You just state that. What makes that better than training to fatigue. Is that argument not credible? Same coach for our 1984 Olympic Gold Medal as in the video I posted.

I posted two videos, of my non-kid fast TT riders. You ignore them as data as does the author who contribute to books about training with power. I certainly understand his motivation.

But where are the videos and statements from elites that they really need them. I already posted 100% of the pros have PMs. That does not mean they train to a number. And we know in certain events they may not use them, so why train to a power number when in competition you don't get to use a PM?

This is a decade long thing that I have not seen anyone get faster from. I'm asking - show me the YouTube video. I gave you two, Fabian is another. Where are the riders saying they used a PM to win.

downtube42

I used to ride brevets in Ohio and Kentucky with another randonneur who used no electronics at all. A paper cue sheet and dead reckoning were his tools. Old school, riding a 600k with nothing but flat repair, lights, cue sheet, some money, and a bit of clothing.

He had as much fun as the rest of us, never missed a turn as far as I recall, and was a middle of the pack finisher.

Electronics can be useful, but are not by any means necessary.

MyTi

Ya I agree if it’s true congrats I just can’t imagine a 66 year old pulling this off for some reason. Lol most guys that age have trouble getting up the stairs

Dean V

As you would know, any track tt type track event is ridden to a schedule. This may get tweaked slightly along the way depending on how the rider is feeling but they definitely have an ongoing "measurement" to pace by. It isn't just done solely by RPE.

DaveLeeNC

You really do need a sense of what can and cannot be done. What I did was not elite performance, even on an age adjusted basis. I am not (or was not) even the fastest guy around my age in the area that I ride. You need a lot more information and basic understanding before you just call someone a liar.

dave

RChung

Your statement about Wiggins, as you *should* know, was incorrect for two reasons: 1) Campenaerts holds the record, not Wiggins. 2) Wiggins (and Campenaerts) rode with power meters -- they just weren't allowed to ride with a *display*. They also used PMs to prep for the hour record.

How would I know about your kid unless you posted about him? Oh, you've posted about your kid. So, this is a third thing you're incorrect about.

I don't need to. I've worked with several riders who've set the hour record. I can only work with them because I have their speed and power data. I've also worked with a few Olympic track pursuit and sprint riders. They don't race with the display but they're recording the data, and they train with the power meter and the display so they can be analyzed later. I wouldn't've been able to work with them without speed and power data.

69chevy

I love reading arguments like these. I ride a road bike and have never been hit by lightning. Riding road bikes is an excellent lightning bolt deterrent.

I use a power meter and get faster. Much faster than I would without it.

How do I know, because I just know. Disagree and I'll argue.

gregf83 

It's not exactly "Measurement Free" if the rider gets his pace displayed every lap.

Seattle Forrest

Ha ha, I didn't realize you were trolling. You got me.

79pmooney

I rode near electronics free forever. Just bought an Elemnt Bolt for a ride I just did to track mileage and stay in sync with the cue sheet. Pretty enlightening just riding with it and seeing average speed and trying to nudge it up. Also riding centuries solo and trying to keep the HR under a number.

Ben

DaveLeeNC

How exactly does this 'only training to the point of fatigue work'. If I were to seriously take up training for something like maybe a competitive hundred mile bike ride of some form (just to pick something), I would need to train for riding a lot of miles, the ability to handle surges, and (possibly) extended high intensity efforts associated with longer climbs.

I guess that I can imagine training for the surges by simply 'riding at some high level until I cannot proceed'. And I can imagine the climb piece by simply attacking a hill such that i can't reach the top because of the pace I choose. I am not saying that I would make those training choices, but I can imagine how one would do that.

But how do you get in the miles you need? Are you thinking that on a day where your training plan requires an extended (say 50 miles) ride, you ride it in a manner that you are completely exhausted at the end? Is that it?

I just don't get it and I don't think that ANYBODY can train every day on a bike by 'training to failure'. But maybe I don't understand what you are saying.

dave

Doge

It sounds like you may not understand what I am saying, that is on me.

I am proposing a philosophy, that says max strength (and short range power) is developed through max muscle fatigue (when warmed up etc.), and then recovery. Some of these ideas have been around a very long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Slow

Typically training to failure would be only in a gym and only certain times, and ideally with a spotter so you can finish a rep. But the person does not start thinking 150# X 8 reps. They may start 80X15, then 100X12 then 150 times whatever it is, and not finish a rep. They are going to a level of fatigue. A trainer really helps.
Other times the person training is training to a fatigue level. It may not be failure. But it is based on how they feel, rest etc.

Miles on the bike are particularly good for building endurance, not so much power, as compared to a gym.

It may have been missed, but I did post above 100% of the pros have PMs. And likely many of their coaches care. It is a great tool for telling the coach what is going on.
WT pros are more about endurance, day in and day out. While it sounds ridiculous to suggest kids are faster than pros - they often are. See ToC, see swimming see many track events, on the bike and running. I don't know so much how to go from a fast 3 day racer to a 7, 12, 15 and 20 day racer. I do believe building speed is better accomplished with non bike things and non number things. "Measurement Free".

asgelle

Other than in the limit of zero, time I don't see what the difference is between building endurance and power. How is it different to say I increased the watts I could maintain for X seconds (increased power) from saying I increased the time I could maintain X watts (increased endurance)? In other words, how is shifting the power-duration curve to the right different from shifting it up?

DaveLeeNC

For the cases of X being small (say under 5 seconds), vs being kind of intermediate (say 20 seconds), vs long (say 20 minutes), these are all very different physiological processes. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22417/ for one of many references available.

dave

asgelle

I understand the physiology (and so how you would train) may be different for different durations, but conceptually what is the difference between increasing power and increasing endurance?

DaveLeeNC

Then this sounds like progress and (I assume) you would agree that for an endurance workout with specific exertion targets, that a power meter would be a excellent way to monitor said workout.

dave