Machka 

But the ground is frozen 3/4 of the year!

NoReg

"I've never heard any gun advocate on this list ever express even the slightest tiny doubt that they might shoot someone or something that they oughtn't."

Sorry if I mistook your views. My main point wasn't legalistic, but moral. Simply to separate a moral issue of someone "deserving" to die from a situation in which they need shooting badly. At 10 feet I can't too easily assess the content of a person's heart, but I could possibly see what is in their hands and assess the danger to me.

Non-cyclist are often very scared of cycling in traffic, better trained or more experienced cyclists usually less so. Same thing with shooters, usually to get handguns, concealed carry permits etc... they will hit some course along the way, or take something like the Lethal Force Inst. training to explain the moral, and practical issues to them. So they may worry less about the whole thing simply because they know how to avoid what may seem to others as unfathomable issues.

Another reason why people may not worry about incorrect responses is because a lot of people carry in order to defend others. Self-defense can be a problem because one may be surprised or otherwise set up. I can imagine a bad decision in that case. But I think if you see someone beating your wife with a tire iron it's a much more transparent situation.

Another reason people don't worry about getting it wrong is because in many instances no actual shots are fired in order to effect the "defense".

"As an asside, do I remember seeing in "Bowling for Columbine" that firearm ownership (I guess in the form of hunting rifles) is actually greater in Canada than in the US? I got the impression that hunting is a pretty popular thing over there. Is that right?"

You can't really trust much in that movie, though I did enjoy it a lot. Much of his points relative to Canada are correctish. I doubt very much the average Canuck has more rifles, but you can only shoot one rifle at a time anyway, Rambo apart. Tactically there isn't any significant difference between firearms ownership levels in the US or Canada. At one point I owned something like 20 rifles or shotguns. They start to add up. In my case about 2/5 were air guns, a couple of shotguns and then a half dozen rifles, Black powder guns... I had really boring stuff, few repeaters. I don't think I would have been at a tactical disadvantage relative to most of the glaring atrocities that have been committed out there. I was the mildest type of target shooter mostly in it for the Zen. I never bothered to get involved in the handgun thing because of the harassment one opens oneself up to in Canada. And if my neighbours slept better at night thinking nobody on their street had a handgun capable of pushing a 158 grain bullet at 900 fps, just rifles capable of pushing a 180 grain bullet at 2800 fps, then I am glad to have done my part.

"The thing is, I highly doubt you could get into Canada with a handgun. You're not allowed to just carry them around here, and even if you did transport one, there are very strict regulations regarding that. If were walked between a bear and her cubs, or were being charged by a moose, you would not have the time to unlock the "secure locking device" load the gun, and fire."

Not sure where things stand with Brits. A biologist friend from Ireland went on a field trip up where there are polar bears, and they were allowed to take a rifle. They didn't carry a particularly credible one, and they didn't have to use it... Now if the point is to speculate what Canadians could carry, well we can carry a lot of stuff including a handgun if we have a wilderness carry permit. We can even carry some stuff Americans can't. We can also get a concealed carry permit good in 38 US states, if not Canada.

"Instead, your friend did exactly what he should have done in that situation. 9 times out of 10 wildlife will leave you alone if you respect the wildlife ... and get out of their way."

Agreed, and nothing creates respect like an equal, or better than equal footing. Just because you are carrying a gun you are not required to shoot the bear. Nonetheless few people on bikes are going to carry a rifle, so it's mostly a moot point. It would be fun to see whether one could cycle across Canada with a rifle on a bike in some obvious display. Just to say one was the last person to do it before the boom fell.

Lolly Pop

I just read a very interesting book, The Gift of Fear, by Gavin de Becker. I would recommend it.

Basically, he suggests that our gut instincts are our best survival skill, and that when we get a bad feeling about a person or a situation, that is our signal to get the hell out of Dodge.

McDave

I don't carry when riding in public as I don't have a concealed carry license, but I do when riding at the ranch. Between the rattlesnakes, copperheads, bobcats, foxes, and coyotes, we're now in the beginning stages of a rabies outbreak making racoons and skunks a threat.

Then a couple weeks ago I came up on a slightly injured deer. I stopped and watched it for a couple minutes and continued on once it had limped off into the brush. I had only gone about 20 feet and was crossing a wet spot in the road on foot when I came across these fresh cougar tracks. I quickly got the heck out of there and went to get my camera and a buddy before going back for photos. It's always something out at the ranch and I wouldn't think of riding there without protection.

David in PA

Hi,

More than a couple of posts in this thread referred to wolves as "dangerous." Look. Don't carry a gun because of wolves. They avoid humans at almost all costs. Hell, I would too if I were them, if my species was hunted, trapped, and poisoned to the brink of extinction--only because of human's gross misconceptions and downright superstition. Consider yourself blessed if you hear their howls against the night sky. Would they attack? Well, maybe if the wolf was rabid or sick or starving out of its mind or something. Remember, their jaws and teeth are strong enough to rip through bone, and working together they can take down a 1000 pound moose (although their attempts usually fail). If a wolf REALLY attacked a human, you'd have heard about it my now. Leave the gun at home.

David in FL

Roughstuff

Prevention is always better than cure.

I have an old Buddy, Tim Bennett, who is a former Marine. When I am in a situation that makes me nervous I always ask myself, WWTBD: "What would Tim Bennett do?" I always get the same answer back in my head: Tim Bennett wouldn't be here!

On my world tour there were 3 places where I was always on my guard:

(1) parts of central and south america;
(2) parts of eastern Turkey; and
(3) The NWFP of Pakistan/Wazaristan

At no point would I ever feel that wielding a weapon would have made me better off. To me. weapons are for those who are trained in their use and willing to bear the consquences of that use. That is very few people outside of law enforcement or who have had military training.

roughstuff

Gotte

In the book I mentioned before, "call of the wild", the writer mentioned he was riding a snowmobile down a trail when he got a gut instinct not to carry on. He turned round and started going back, then told himself not to be silly, and turned back on his original course, a matter of minutes later the trail started to crack beneath him and the snow mobile plunged through ice. He survived, but lost the machine. He put his sixth sense to living in the wilderness and being attuned to the natural world.

I'll have to check out the book you refer to.

Gotte

Wow, that's a great shot. Certainly don't see anything like that in the UK (except, perhaps the beast of bodmin).

Krink

After considering all these sage observations, I'm changing my mind about guns. My new slogan is:

Guns don't kill people.
Bullets kill people.

Doesn't an empty gun supply all the protection that a loaded gun promises, without any of the moral qualms? Point it at whoever the heck you want! Give 'em a little chill! Ride off into the sunset.

Btw, European folks? Get a clue: we Americans are cuckoo about guns. Give us a gun and we'll wipe out a McDonald's or a high school. Give us some tanks and we'll wipe out Iraq. That is just the way we are! You might say it's in our constitution.

Please, have some tolerance. But, confuse us with Canadians at your peril.

Tom Stormcrowe

Good way to wind up dead! If you are going to carry, at least make sure you CAN use it as more than an empty threat. To do otherwise is a fancy way of saying Suicide by other means.

A weapon is not for show, it is to use......period. To think otherwise is a total lack or responsibility to yourself! Learn to use the weapon properly and responsibly. Learn to use actual practical shooting tactics (read "close quarters combat" shooting here). Also remember, if you are wrong, you are going to be prosecuted....it's a double edged sword!

On the other side of the coin, there is an inherent responsibility to holding the key to deadly force. If you aren't willing to accept that responsibility, then don't carry, as simple as that! Also, if you carry, then keep at the back of your mind how easy it is to allow overconfidence to lure you into a situation you don't want to be in.

Losligato

Beautiful! I have got to get this book. It looks like many libraries have it..

We've been talking about this lately with another tourer we met a few days ago. We feel a bit more "in tune" to what's going on around us since we began touring. Not in a metaphysical sense. More like a team sports player who knows where all the other players on the field are moving even though he cannot see them all. I will see Amanda turn away from someone and I know before she says, "He's a creep, watch out."

I was wondering if this ability of the gut to feel (for lack of a better term) is heightened by being outdoors all day -or- Is the the constantly changing environment around us -or- something else entirely.

McDave

Exactly! Not to mention animals, particularly wild and possibly rabid animals, do not understand the concept of "brandishing". Drug crazed do bads also fit that description.

Non and anti-gun people who tend to exaggerate the possibility of shooting the wrong person or accidentally shooting someone are merely projecting their own feelings of inadequacy. Training and experience will go a long way towards building the confidence to do the right thing if/when the opportunity arrives.

Good point. In my post above where I came upon the cougar tracks, even though I was armed I had the good sense to get out of there and get backup before returning. *Large wild cats and adrenalin pumped druggies tend not to drop with one shot like in the old Westerns. They're more like the bad guy in the Terminator flicks. Best not to bike through grizzly dens or gang turf in the first place if at all possible.

*Note the use of the words "tend" and "more like". Every situation and reaction is different. Your mileage may vary.

Tom Stormcrowe

As you can likely tell from my post, I'm NOT an anti-gun person. I just can't not respond when someone advocates something as ignorant and dangerous as brandishing an empty weapon by choice! Granted, if I had no other option, I might consider a bluff, but would prefer to "RUN AWAY!", as fast as I could if I were in that particular situation.

Matter of fact, even armed, I'll go a long way out of my way to avoid having to use it, because outside of being in an active war zone, if I have to use that weapon, it's because my instincts failed me and I allowed myself to enter an untenable situation. Don't get me wrong, if it's a choice of me or them, it'll be them on the ground if I am forced to make that choice.

As to the training issue, yes, I do believe a person should be trained in both firearm safety and use, both! I got my weapon training compliments of my family as well as Uncle Sam. I've been handling firearms since I got my first rifle at 7 (close supervision, then!), and in the 40 years I've been shooting, I've gotten to be a pretty good shot. I prefer long arms to a pistol, but see the uses of both, rifles are just my preference.

NoReg

"On my world tour there were 3 places where I was always on my guard:

(1) parts of central and south america;
(2) parts of eastern Turkey; and
(3) The NWFP of Pakistan/Wazaristan"

I doubt a gun would help in a place like that either. Seems to me the kinds of place that guns work are your home base, when you are in good standing and acting according to law. Or in wild areas, including possibly certain oceans (gets sticky in every port though). In an area where you are at best a guest, shooting locals and then hoping for the best is not going to work out.

The kind of areas that have wolf populations and aren't parks, have other animals to be concerned about or livestock to protect. Again if we were allowed to carry handguns routinely in all of these areas there would be little reason not to. I'm an extremist on going light on a bike, but would I carry a handgun before a load of other junk people carry from latte machines, to pillows, you never know.

I think the fear factor is an important one to pay attention to. I have had a number of cases where god proved me right. Once back about 1980. I was standing under a piece of overhanging, drippy, spring ice, arguing why we shouldn't climb it to a friend, when a six-pack sized piece of the overhang detached and fell down right between us. Sometimes you get lucky. More generally people ignore the bad feelings. If you take 9/11, Iraq, Pearl Harbor, etc... In almost every case people had direct intelligence/warnings, and just ignored them. I've been hurt ignoring bad feelings, often tiredness-stop what I am doing now warnings. Right up to a plane crash that came with positively gothic warnings I treated as curiosities.

It's rather Like Warren Buffett. A lot of people have heard the story, but few people can play the part. If you know a person with perfect instincts, in most cases they don't have them, and it just catches up with them in the end. Famous people, the toast of Europe in the climbing field eventually... oops! If the person in question really has something we don't, some way of responding so as never to have a "zero times year" as Buffett puts it, you can be sure the vast majority of us are not going to have that skill any more than we turn out to be Bill Gates or movie stars. The urges are contradictory: Have the most adventure/make the most money, vs. don't get hurt/loose all your money.

Tom Stormcrowe

Se BOLD: I agree 100% here, when in another country, you are a guest. Always obey the law of the land, American Gun rights only apply in the USA!

Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack this to either a pro or anti gun viewpoint. I was primarily responding to the poster that advocated waving an empty weapon as a "threat" and pointing out the consequences of such, for lack of a better term, ignorance (meaning uninformed, not stupid!).

Niles H.

It seems that -- if it came down to it and a gun were actually used -- it would often not be such a clean and effective solution. There may be backlash. Relatives, friends and others may not be happy, and may not take it lying down.

There may be legal repercussions, possibly lengthy, trying and expensive ones.

There may be guilt. I've known people who killed in wartime, and they are haunted by it for many years.

***
Also, using pepper spray may entail backlash from a very displeased and angry sprayed person.

When he recovers, will he always be happy to leave you alone?

What about later that night? What if he returns, armed or with 'friends', or with some pepper spray of his own, to let you know how it feels.

What about afterwards when you're riding down the road on a bike?

I've met a lot of people who definitely would not 'just let it go.'

***
On the other hand, there are situations when one or the other of these (defensive) weapons would be just the thing to have.

There are also situations in which they would not do a bit of good.

(It's really very complex.....)

***
The matter of intuition has come up.

There may be different forms of it.

One of them is what might be called intuitional foresight or premonition.

Some have already touched on this.

It isn't always accurate; but sometimes it is.

What if a person's intuition is indicating that having some kind of effective defensive tool is a good idea? It may be mistaken; on the other hand, there may be something to it....

***
It seems to me that prevention and avoidance strategies are best, followed (in rare cases (made rare by avoiding getting into those situations in the first place)) by psychological, verbal and other non-harmful deterrent actions that will not have negative consequences (for self or others).

***
(And perhaps backed up with some kind(s) of last-resort-only, but still no-more-extreme-than-necessary tools.

--but if care is taken to make those situations rare enough, perhaps sufficient rarity is itself enough.

--still undecided, but leaning toward bear spray, but used only when or if absolutely necessary, only as last backup, and accompanied by good implementation of sound situational-avoidance judgment.)

Tom Stormcrowe

This is exactly the point I've been trying to make, Niles.....thanks!

Krink

Bingo.

Though, I'd prefer a little less passive voice and I'm not so happy about the evasive phrases "to use." How about: "A weapon is not just for show. You carry a gun so that you have the power to easily kill a human being. Carrying a gun means weighing each encounter for reasons to shoot the person you have met."

As far as animal encounters, why would meeting a cougar barehanded be somehow less brave, or a sign of inadequacy, than meeting one with a gun? Y'know, when the Lakota counted coup, they dropped their weapons. Why do Americans always confuse firepower with courage? If that's the case, anyone could buy courage for a couple hundred bucks at the Wallmart gun counter.

I would encourage men, at least, to leave the guns at home and count some coup this summer. Show how adequate you really are.

And, for extra points, wear a pink tutu while you pedal cross Wyoming and Idaho.

froze

This is the dumbest most ignorant post I've ever read...well ok, maybe not, but it came in a close 2nd!

First off people kill people not guns, in fact cars kill more people in the USA then guns, just point them at a crowd and mow them over then drive off into the sunset; so we need to get rid of the big bad killing cars...heck with gas prices the way they are maybe that's not a bad idea.

Your analogy about give us a gun and we'll wipe out a school or whatever is just as ignorant. I didn't realize that all the schools were void of children because WE KILLED THEM ALL!! What a jackashe comment.

Give us some tanks and we'll wipe out Iraq? We had no intentions of, nor have we wiped out Iraq. If our military wanted to wipe out Iraq there would be nothing there now except wind blown sand!!! And MOST Iraqi's want us there! Go figure; but you wouldn't know that because you've never been there, and all you do is sit in your recliner and watch the nightly news on TV!

And do you really think that if America laid down all the weapons we have, that the world would suddenly love us and never ever want to do us harm ever again for eternity? Somehow I believe you think that way.

Then you spout off about us killing people but you never mentioned the 4 aircraft, of which 2 slammed into the World Trade Towers, 1 into the Pentagon, and the other into the ground killing thousands of people. Judged from your response you probably sat in the cheering section!!!!!

McDave

Don't let this guy get to you Froze. Just toss him a couple rational thoughts and watch him self destruct.

As for me, I'm off to live with the grizzlys to prove I'm a man and bears are people too. Gee, I hope I meet up with Timothy and Amie!

Lolly Pop

Where are you? Do you want my copy? I am happy to post it to you.

hoss10

A few years ago a friend while touring in Spain (in a car) and sleeping on the beach, heard a noise outside and watched while 3 men broke into the car, and stole what they wanted. When he stuck my head out of the tent one of the men lifted up his jacket and showed a pistol in his belt and shook his head. They quickly took what they wanted and left. If he was armed, what would have happened? He was left with a few less dollars and broken door lock, not a shoot out.


As for having a hand gun with you for animals, again, why? I live in the wilds of Canada, where we have wolves, bears, moose etc. and handgun is doing no good with any of these beasts. You just don't put yourself at risk (between a bear and her cubs for instance). As for rabid animals (we have many of those) I find a shovel works real good.

Tom Stormcrowe

That wouldn't be a case where I would use one. It wasn't an imminent threat and frankly, if they were going to use the weapon subtly displayed, they already would have. He just used it as a "comealong" to keep your friend in the tent. As I've said before, if you carry a weapon, you have to assess whether it's worth using it. If there is no imminent threat, then there is no need to use it and imminent threat is pretty easy to define.

The difficulty is, when you are under "Imminent threat", chances are you aren't going to have much time to decide whether to use or not. In consequence, that's the reason I advocated training for use of the weapon as well. IN addition to the training, you need to get lots of range time so the mechanics of use are in your muscle memory and operate on more of a reflexive level. This is a lot more commitment than most people want to make, by the way.

Nicodemus

"European state-controlled media" LOL

ivegotabike

I wonder if froze realizes that the perpetrators of events of spetember 11th and Saddam Hussein are compleatly unrelated, apart from their religion.