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Why did Titanium not take off amongst Pros?

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Why did Titanium not take off amongst Pros?

Old 08-23-19, 01:23 PM
  #101  
Seattle Forrest
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Originally Posted by MyTi View Post
Carbon is similar to plastic. Metal is nice. My madone that I sold felt like plastic. Ordering a lynskey soon once I make up my mind
Sometimes carbon and titanium are like bricks, real things that exist in the world. Sometimes they're both imaginary like dragons.
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Old 08-23-19, 02:16 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Sometimes carbon and titanium are like bricks, real things that exist in the world. Sometimes they're both imaginary like dragons.
Yes everything is imaginary unless a pic of it is posted on bf lmao
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Old 08-23-19, 07:44 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Menel View Post
I got mine about 9 years ago, I must have been 27. My wife has a carbon bike from the same timeframe... they look very different. My Lynskey still looks new... the paint on hers... not so much.

Ti can be a good value, especially considering the durability. Was looking at gravel bikes last winter. $3300 for a handmade USA Ti bike with 105 hydraulics... or a chinese slave labor Salsas Warbird with paint that will scratch and chip for $3400 from LBS. It's kind of a no brainer.
Salsa Warbirds are made in Taiwan, which does not have *checks* slave labor.
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Old 08-23-19, 08:53 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by MyTi View Post
Yes everything is imaginary unless a pic of it is posted on bf lmao
I haven't noticed any noobs posting a thread to ask about their bike being told pics or GTFO, have you?
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Old 08-23-19, 10:51 PM
  #105  
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Lynskey seems to be the sweet spot for value. Can someone explain the differences amongst their models? Their website doesn't do a good job at it.
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Old 08-24-19, 12:45 AM
  #106  
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My '93 Trek 5900 has most of the original titanium components -- Ibis stem, American Classic seat post. I'm not sure but I think at least some of the bits in the King headset and White bottom bracket are titanium. Pretty nifty, but probably not much lighter than aluminum. I just replaced the ridiculously long Ibis stem with an aluminum FSA stem. I don't have a scale but they felt about the same weight, although the FSA stem looks much chunkier. The Ibis stem is slender and elegant.

A titanium bike is on my wish list. I don't care whether it's lighter or faster. I just want one.
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Old 08-24-19, 01:34 AM
  #107  
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People are happy with mediocre mass-produced plastic bikes, and pro's ride what they are given.
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Old 08-24-19, 09:20 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Menel View Post

Ti can be a good value, especially considering the durability. Was looking at gravel bikes last winter. $3300 for a handmade USA Ti bike with 105 hydraulics... or a chinese slave labor Salsas Warbird with paint that will scratch and chip for $3400 from LBS. It's kind of a no brainer.
Just to give the gravel thing a try, was seriously looking at doing one of the Ribble Ti CGRs..
seems to be great value

https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-cgr-ti/#HOWTOBUY
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Old 08-24-19, 01:39 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Princess_Allez View Post
Lynskey seems to be the sweet spot for value. Can someone explain the differences amongst their models? Their website doesn't do a good job at it.
When I was shopping a few years back they had a series of YouTube videos that explained the differences. If you narrow it down to a couple you can email them with specific questions.
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Old 08-24-19, 05:55 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by sumgy View Post
People are happy with mediocre mass-produced plastic bikes
There can easily be more manual labour involved in a carbon frameset than a metal one, and there's almost certainly far more work gone into the design.

And if you were to take an open mold Chinese carbon frameset of today back in time to 1992, you'd be killed for it.
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Old 08-24-19, 06:00 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
There can easily be more manual labour involved in a carbon frameset than a metal one, and there's almost certainly far more work gone into the design.

And if you were to take an open mold Chinese carbon frameset of today back in time to 1992, you'd be killed for it.

Link to sources on this? How many Pro's are riding around on hand built carbon frames in the peloton?
They are all riding cookie cutter molded frames from Asia.
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Old 08-24-19, 06:13 PM
  #112  
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Lolwut. You think they have machines to lay up all the sections of carbon? The mold doesn't mean less work. Have a think how much work goes into the mold, too.

Every monocoque carbon frame is hand built.
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Old 08-24-19, 06:48 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
Lolwut. You think they have machines to lay up all the sections of carbon? The mold doesn't mean less work. Have a think how much work goes into the mold, too.

Every monocoque carbon frame is hand built.
You are the only one saying that.
Pro's ride what they are told to ride.
Want to buy a disposable plastic frame that you will be "upgrading" every couple of years, go for your life.
I will still be riding my steel and Ti frames.
I won't ever buy a plastic bike regardless of who built it, how many hours it took or whether it is moulded, monocoque or even lugged.
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Old 08-24-19, 06:55 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by sumgy View Post
You are the only one saying that.
How many people are talking to you about it? Ask anyone with a clue.

It's pretty plain from your language that you're biased against carbon. I'm sorry technology hurts your feelings.
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Old 08-24-19, 06:59 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
How many people are talking to you about it? Ask anyone with a clue.
Do you happen to know anyone?
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Old 08-24-19, 07:04 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by sumgy View Post
You are the only one saying that.
Pro's ride what they are told to ride.
Want to buy a disposable plastic frame that you will be "upgrading" every couple of years, go for your life.
I will still be riding my steel and Ti frames.
I won't ever buy a plastic bike regardless of who built it, how many hours it took or whether it is moulded, monocoque or even lugged.
From the assorted manufacturing videos I’ve seen, the layup is all by human hand. It’s a labor intensive process, though maybe not requiring the same level of skill as a metal bike builder whose skill is all in the welding and brazing. But it’s not an automated process.

I’m not still riding my Lemond titanium. After multiple paint jobs required for flacking paint, the frame cracked. Just as well as the bottom bracket area had the worse flex, made for constant chain rub. POS titanium does exist and it let me go to carbon, which I love.

Last edited by Steve B.; 08-24-19 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 08-24-19, 07:10 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Has been 30 years. They're not coming down anymore than they have.
Anymore and they would almost be free. I bought a full carbon track frame for under $600.00
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Old 08-24-19, 07:21 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
From the assorted manufacturing videos I’ve seen, the layup is all by human hand. It’s a labor intensive process, though maybe not requiring the same level of skill as a metal bike builder whose skill is all in the welding and brazing. But it’s not an automated process.

I’m not still riding my Lemond titanium. After multiple paint jobs required for flacking paint, the frame cracked. Just as well as the bottom bracket area had the worse flex, made for constant chain rub. POS titanium does exist and it let me go to carbon, which I love.
So after many years it cracked?
V's multiple breakages over the same time that my friends have had with their CF frames (1 friend broke 2 Trek's in a year).
I am looking forward to the day in 30 years when we have a Retro Carbon Fibre page on here
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Old 08-24-19, 07:22 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
the layup is all by human hand. It’s a labor intensive process, though maybe not requiring the same level of skill as a metal bike builder whose skill is all in the welding and brazing.
The skill in building a carbon monocoque is in both the design of the frame itself, and the design of the tooling and processes to make it, which far transcends the abilities of an individual artisan; it's a proper full-blown bit of industrial engineering.

Add in aero optimisation, for what little it's really worth, and you're definitely talking something only a large company can achieve. (Although I guess now that design cat is out of the bag, since aero frames are all a pretty similar shape.)

Last edited by Kimmo; 08-24-19 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 08-24-19, 07:40 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
The skill in building a carbon monocoque is in both the design of the frame itself, and the design of the tooling and processes to make it, which far transcends the abilities of an individual artisan; it's a proper full-blown bit of industrial engineering.

Add in aero optimisation, for what little it's really worth, and you're definitely talking something only a large company can achieve. (Although I guess now that design cat is out of the bag, since aero frames are all a pretty similar shape.)
My Father worked as a design engineer for Boeing. He told me that Boeing had a whole composite division. Every once and awhile, I would see their vans driving around at their Renton facility. I have a feeling that working with composites take a fairly high level of understanding.
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Old 08-24-19, 09:00 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
The skill in building a carbon monocoque is in both the design of the frame itself, and the design of the tooling and processes to make it, which far transcends the abilities of an individual artisan; it's a proper full-blown bit of industrial engineering.

Add in aero optimisation, for what little it's really worth, and you're definitely talking something only a large company can achieve. (Although I guess now that design cat is out of the bag, since aero frames are all a pretty similar shape.)
No, see, "artisans" only count if they're American or European, and not those weird guys over there who are "soulless"


e) i also find the "cookie cutter" comment really funny. I've owned three bikes, two of which were lugged steel. I love traditional geometry lugged steel racing bikes. They also all look the same, until you get into examining cutouts/lug shapes etc. Like there's no way I could tell an unpainted Colnago from an unpainted Puch from the 80s without looking up cutouts/lug shapes/etc, while I could absolutely tell the difference between the current pro tour Bianchi Oltre/Tarmac/Argon 18 without any paint on them. Cookie cutter indeed.

And full disclosure, I'm also biased against carbon, it's just that I think aero tubes are sins against bike aesthetics and everything should look like a Merckx Corsa Extra

Last edited by sheddle; 08-24-19 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 08-24-19, 09:56 PM
  #122  
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So in other words, the quality of the design and making of good carbon frames rests on the expertise of the designers and engineers of the machines. So the rest of the process, the laborious part, can be done with semi-skilled labor. Is that right? So with the economy of a large scale, if you get the design right, produce a lot at low marginal costs, and you make money on an inexpensive product.
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Old 08-24-19, 11:20 PM
  #123  
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So, less cut cookies, more woven baskets.

Good point about lugged steel being cookie cutter business, lol.

Buy the lugs, cut the tubes, slot em together and cook, bingo. Highly skilled cookie cutting, but nonetheless...

Last edited by Kimmo; 08-24-19 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 08-25-19, 12:11 AM
  #124  
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These troll threads never die.

Metallurgy is fairly mature at this point, resin based structures are all the rage.

Plastic can indeed be quite durable, I'm partial to metal and wood myself.

When it was dismantled, the house was so indestructible that the crew gave up and left some of the support pilings in place (they can still be seen in Neptune’s Grotto between the Tomorrowland entrance and Fantasyland). Supposedly the planned one-day demolition ended up taking two weeks as the wrecking ball just bounced off the exterior. Workers cut the house into pieces with hacksaws. After it was removed, the house’s landscaping, waterfalls, and walkways (and sturdy base!) remained.

Last edited by SHBR; 08-25-19 at 12:58 AM.
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Old 08-25-19, 05:42 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
As I recall, Pinarello wouldn't let him keep any of his team bikes because he quit racing before the contract was up. Indurain asked his pals in the peleton for recommendations, and the decision came down to Colnago (steel) versus Cannondale (aluminum). He bought a Cannondale. I remember our Cannondale sales rep saying, "We'd have given him one if he'd asked!"
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