rbrian

I do that too, which is why I don't buy DVDs - £10 for 2 hours of entertainment is not good value. It makes a £6 cinema ticket look good value! But video games at £20 or so can last 40 hours, sometimes more. Most of the books I read come from www.gutenberg.org, and are free. Of course the cellphone I read them on wasn't free, but at £5 a month, it pays for itself with ebooks alone, never mind all the other functions.

Lamplight

That's true, if you only watch it once. I almost always buy used DVDs and I've probably watched all of them at least ten times (I don't have very many). I also usually buy used books, as well, many of which I've read more than once or likely will in the future.

AsanaCycles

for me, luckily, I've been exposed to this stuff for a long time.
i actually grew up in a van with my dad in the 80's

a vast majority of anything i ever had, i paid off immediately, only holding a balance to get a that 720-ish credit score, and holding a job for 14yrs.

at anyrate... I haven't worked for 2yrs now.

during this time, i've made a few bucks here and there. via bicycle!
huh?

uhh... ya

ok... so its Sport Recreation oriented. en mass people use bikes as Sport. all my buddies are joe racer types.

altho, i did finish The Eastern Sierra Double on a steel double top tube 29er, with semi slicks

so i wrench here and there, which is enough to feed me, buy more lycra, and even buy bike parts.

this weekend i sold a Fondriest road bike! + a set of wheels

most of this stuff, i score off of my buddies. they know I'll turn it into cash.

lately I've been using my Big Dummy loaded with bike tools, stand, et al and i simply go over to their houses and knock out a job.

this year alone
I've helped with support for 2 teams in town, for 4 day training camps.

i was the On Site Operations Co-Ordinator for The Sea Otter Classic.
uhhh.... no car... ride bike to Laguna Seca.
some days, I used The Dummy and actually ran things around most of the days on The Dummy.

yesterday I rode the Hunter 29er from Monterey, to Bixby Bridge, up and over Old Coast Rd, Big Sur, went swimming and rode home.

I spent $2.35 on a frivolous Coke-a-Cola purchase.

most people drive to big sur, pay the park entrance fee, to park their car, buy lunches, etc...
and go back to work on Monday.

the rest of my stuff, i either work for
or lately
again....
as luck has had it
partial sponsorship, so I've ended up with stacks of stuff
like Hammer Nutrition
team garb
tubes
tyres
etc...

but, i dont own a car
for about 6yrs now

and i totally advocate bicycles in every way
i go to City Hall meetings
help put on crits
the sea otter classic
training camps
wrench at shops here and there
and on my own

basically i do whatever it is that i can do, as long as it is bike-centric

at the moment, there is a buzz to potentially start up a "bike church/bike kitchen" whatever you want to call it, non-profit, bicycle community outreach.

i may have to relent tho
i may have to bend to Career again

but for now
its been pretty damn sweet

i cannot even begin to think of the times i've used Amtrak with the bike, or the buses, etc.

all the times I've gone on tour
camping
getting groceries
etc.

put it this way
anything i own, i have moved with The Big Dummy
really
if it won't fit on The Big Dummy, I do not buy it.

albeit my pile of belongings is less than 1/2 of a small U-Haul
and that I can hardly stand
as those things are really a financial drain, other than the bike tools
of which, are becoming a greater percentage of things to my name.

i don't worry so much as to house myself
that is to shelter my own body
but rather to secure the things to my name
therefor i actually pay rent to house those items.
which incidentally as become a percentage of my rent in total

however...
i may have that figured out too

housing is everywhere
there are boxes everywhere we look

lately I've been on an American Indian history kick (again)
this whole concept that our culture works off of
i mean to say... this notion of houses, debt, career, etc...
the right to live
that is the right to eat
the right to sleep
the right to drink water

those things used to be a person's Birthright

but somewhere, our Culture has changed all that
we pay for water, a place to sleep, etc...


my fellow brethren Velo brothers and sisters
i am here to say
we are all living on our own private Reservations

The Free World is quickly fading. And this is one of the best Free World Experiences on The Planet. (at the moment)

I've managed to pull it off to a certain degree
for 2 years

its involved ditching most of my things

for those of us with greater obligations
this notion would best be forgotten
wives, children and financial obligations, are best to heed

ditching everything, is not for everyone
do not jump the back yard fence and disappear into the hills

altho our banks have robbed us blind
altho our fellow man, has robbed us blind
altho we have sold our noon and forenoons

there are still more mortgages to uphold
and more car payments to make

in fact
many are actually giving up their current vehicles, accepting the outstanding debt
and yet, going into further debt for things called, "Smart Cars"

my diatribe is done...
UPS just dropped off yet another set of wheels!

yee haw!

Platy

@AsanaCycles

Word.

uke

Yup, he knows what's going on.

Roody

I think we're seriously misunderstanding each other. We don't usually stand very far apart on issues like this. Let's start from scratch (more or less), if you care to.

The main point I was trying to make (and obviously failing) was that whether you call it depreciation or not, cars lose value and this is a big expense for most car owners. I wanted to call this loss of value "depreciation." That might be the wrong term. I know a bit (for a layman) about macroeconomics, but very little about household finances or accounting. If anybody knows a better term, I will be happy to know and use it.

Maybe I'm using the term "opportunity costs" wrongly also. I mean that if you don't spend $300 a month on a car payment, you are free to spend the $300 on something else. But I only count it as $300. I don't count it as "The 20 million dollars I could have made if I bought 300 lottery tickets a month, instead of paying off the damn car note."

But the main point I wanted to make was a response to several posters who said that they don't save much being carfree, because they already spend very little on their cars. These are peopel who say things like, "I have a 20 year old car that I maintain myself and keep it running like a top, and that car gets 50 miles to the gallon and insurance is only $50 a year." (exaggerated for humor.) This kind of frugality is wonderful, IMO, but it's not a typical case. Most people--even frugal people--spend far more on their cars than the intelligent and ultra-frugal carlight people who posted on this thread. I believe that most people spend roughly $5k to $11k per year, per car, as I explained in a previous post. For most of us, that's a hell of a lot of money.

However, looking back at my posts, I really don't understand why you think I'm being hostile to people who own cars, or why you think I'm an extremist. I think that I have always defended people who are unable to be carfree, even as I challenge some assumptions thay might have about what it takes to be carfree. And I certainly never told anybody how they should spend their money. I only said that most Americans would save more money than the ultra-frugal carlight people who posted in this thread. I stand by that opinion.

uke

First and foremost, I think I was unnecessarily combative in my last few posts; I apologize for those, and will try to express my points more diplomatically.

I agree with what you say about cars losing value rapidly, which is part of why I'd never recommend anyone buy a new car. My qualms with the term depreciation are primarily in how people calculate it, and why...but there's no question that cars lose value over time.

Similarly, I understand what you mean by opportunity costs, and also see money drained in payments as money that could better be spent elsewhere. What I often disagree with in the use of the term here is when it seems the purchase of a car is always viewed as an opportunity cost without benefit.

Regarding your point about average car expenditures, I also see your point there, and acknowledge that those of us with exceptional stories aren't by any means average. I'd just like to see an acknowledgment now and then that there can be exceptions. The only times I post about my car here are when I see people insisting such exceptions don't exist, which automatically draws the exceptions to disagree.

Finally, I think I tend to hardline when I perceive others as hardlining; it may be more beneficial for me to brush more things off than I do. I'm constantly looking for ways to become even more car light, and am even celebrating having gone two weeks without using the car, due to more flexibility in my schedule in the summer. I agree with you and others here when you say that most would stand to save a lot of money when switching to less car-dependent lifestyles; I'd to see a bit more room at the table, so to speak, for folks whose circumstances aren't quite where they'd like them to be, or for whom car ownership at some level is necessary for whatever they're doing.

That said, I'll continue to work on providing my points without provoking (or being provoked by) the points of others here. I can always benefit from more effort at tact.

AsanaCycles

i don't really know what to say

altho, i assume on some level I'm a hypocrite

i just put on a new set of Williams 30x wheels, from Taiwan of course!

I just put on a cogset and chain... obviously came from overseas, on a huge container ship
obviously not one of the huge ships, as The Panama Canal is being widened to accommodate the new size.

my road bike is pathetic
its good for only 1 single thing.
thats Sport

now don't get me wrong
cuz i like Assos Chamois cream, and I totally love Velo Club Monterey
and my buddies are obviously my brethren Velolites
I'm a sucker for community, and camaraderie
all the high dollar car toppers blow my mind

but for now, thats about what my community can come up with.

or maybe its

Career demands so much, that with the little remaining time, if we are lucky enough, we get to engage in Sport.

in many ways, its really sad, that only the destitute ride bikes for consistent transportation.

growing up "Homeless", I have an affinity for Hobos, and I often like to live "On The Ramble"
some of the friendliest people I've met are hobos.

something about the affluent
where their houses are out in the country
uptop a 1500ft ridge line, in Big Sur, with a God Inspiring View
you know... thats Car-Centric Living

aint know way you're going to get a Costco run delivered by bike to a ranch in Big Sur.

but they have other places to live here in town, the stay for the week, or less, swank bike uptop a nice new Ultimate Driving Maching, etc...

i suppose its all relative

to what degree are we speaking, right?

I mean, its pretty much impossible for most people to Divorce their Car.

AsanaCycles

on 4/15/09 my dad passed away from Bladder Cancer
he smoked cigarettes and anything else he could put in his crack pipe since his youth
my grandfather is 89, blind, living at home with my Nana whom has Alzheimer's

my grandfather told me this:
"do yourself a favor and don't get too old."

grandpa, what is too old?

oh... i guess 65, when you have to retire.
----------------------------------------------------------------

that had me thinking for some time.

with the way The Economy has gone

i mean, in that light

you know.... once upon a time, when i was encrusted amidst my Career
i used to say, "time goes one way, Money comes and goes."
that is, "a dollar can be gained and lost at any moment, however your moments, never come back."

in that light

if we were to think of finance
as a measure of time that its taken to amass that gain

for easy math
$10/hr x 2,080hrs (full time) per year
is about $21k minus 30% (easy math... actually its about 28% for single people)
thats $14k/yr

rent... $800/mo = $9600/yr

your rent is supposed to be no more than 1/3 of your take home.

so if rent were $1k/mo, a person would need to make a minimum of $3k/mo
which is $36k/yr after taxes.

and thats just LIVING

the right to sleep somewhere

forget transportation
forget a car

forget all those things that are Car-Centric

and thats just thinking about Rent

so in many ways, when one things of the perceived "value of a dollar"
one would be prudent to think of it as a measure of time, taken out of one's life

moment by moment
we sell our noons and forenoons

ya?

i mean, Thoreau spoke of this kind of stuff years ago

but of course no one has time to read

not even the contract for a Credit Card

Roody

It's an internet forum, brother uke. You're welcome to provoke or be provoked. All of us at times feel better if we take a deep breath and remember that "we are all simply more human than otherwise." (Harry Stack Sullivan)

Roody

Asana,

rent is 1/3 of income. For most people, car expenses are 1/5. I noticed years ago that 1/5 means 1 day of the typical 5 day work week. By giving up my car (actually it was stolen, but that was the best theft I could have experienced at the time), I took back one day of my week--noon and forenoon. And yes, I was thinking of Henry David when I did it.

Compared to you and Thoreau, I'm only 1/5 of the way there, but I feel lucky to have made it even this far, compared to most of my friends and associates.

Anyhoo asana, your writing has made me remember the right way to think of "saving" by not having a car, and thanks very much for that!

uke

Quite true. :O) Well, cheers to good discussion, then!

Platy

Well Bro. Roody, Bro. Uke, Bro. Asana and all the usual LCF suspects,
I thought I caught a brief whiff of the late, great Age of Aquarius here on this thread, and in the spirit of flashback here's

THE FLESH FAILURES
Lyrics by Gerome Ragni & James Rado

We starve-look
At one another
Short of breath
Walking proudly in our winter coats
Wearing smells from laboratories
Facing a dying nation
Of moving paper fantasy
Listening for the new told lies
With supreme visions of lonely tunes

Somewhere
Inside something there is a rush of
Greatness
Who knows what stands in front of
Our lives
I fashion my future on films in space
Silence
Tells me secretly
Everything
Everything

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHo81_A56EE

AsanaCycles

this is more of the stuff we put together:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 2:34:16 PM
Subject: Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca Twilight Ride this Wednesday

The Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca Twilight Bicycle Ride Series returns this
Wednesday evening, June 17. There will be two hours of open riding at
the at the world famous raceway. This month's event is co-hosted by the
Ghost Tree Racing local cycling club, and during the evening there will
also be an informal circuit race and a one-lap kids race.

Signup opens at 5:00 PM in the Lakebed area of the track. The track
opens at 5:30 PM for bicyclists of all types to enjoy riding the
beautiful circuit with its silky-smooth pavement and lack of cars! At
6:00 PM kids seven-and-older will have the opportunity to race one lap
of the track, and at 6:30 PM a one-hour circuit race will take place.
This month the circuit-race field will run in two groups-- a stronger
and more experienced A group, and a B group for less-experienced riders.

During the race, the track will remain open for everyone, even if they
don't choose to compete. Riders of all ability levels are encouraged to
come out and enjoy this treat that the Sports Car Racing Association of
the Monterey Peninsula has made available to central coast bicyclists.

There is a $10 fee for insurance, and proceeds will be donated to Mazda
Raceway Laguna Seca charities. See you Wednesday evening at Mazda
Raceway Laguna Seca.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

more than likely I will be the only Car-Free person
but at least Sport is a direction

the thing I fear most
is that The Sport of Cycling will over shadow The Transport of Bicycling

my worst vision would include bicycles licensed, and ridden at approved venues, only
as if licensing an ATV, a boat, or any other "pleasure craft"

at anyrate... its something
most of my buddies, and probably a decent chance to wrench on something else this week too...

Roody

Well, perception is partly a function of location. I'm not surprised that the Monterey area would have many more sport and recreational cyclists. In my hometown of Lansing, Michigan, transportation cyclists definitely outnumber the recreational types--especially in January!

Newspaperguy

I understand what you're saying and I agree that the cost of car ownership is significant. But I question your figure of $5,000 to $11,000 a year. That's a huge percentage of an average income.

I'm paying around $1,000 a year on license, registration and insurance. At the current gasoline prices here, I'd pay around $2,300 a year if I filled up once a week. Maintenance and repairs, if I drove that much, might set me back $1,000 a year. Those are my costs. But even when I wasn't close to car light, my fuel consumption was a lot lower than one tank a week. If I drove that way now, I'd still spend well under $4,000 a year for my car. That's in Canadian dollars. It would be a lower figure in the U.S. dollar. My car light costs are now less than $2,500 a year and I'm working to bring these costs down some more.

Driving a late-model car or leasing would naturally put me into a higher price range, but I still would come in at the low end of your figures, not the high end. Because my car has low kilometres and should last quite a few years, I'm not including depreciation or replacement. I have quite a few years before I have to consider a replacement.

I agree that car costs can be significant, but there are ways to trim some of those costs.

Roody

Ok, $2500 for fuel, insurance and repairs on an older car that I presume is paid for. But most people don't have paid-for cars. A typical car payment is said to be $350 per month or $4200 per year. Even if we ignore the 20% down payment, taxes and fees, and higher insurance for a financed car, you're up to $6700--well within my estimate of $5k to $11k.

I'm getting a little tired of all this figuring. One reason that I don't have a car is that I don't have to think about all these facts and figures. I'm not gonna do it in this thread any more. (I'm sure you'll all be happy to hear this!)

For the people who want to become carfree to save money, I urge you to use one of the many cost calculators available to determine your own savings. I think most of you will save a lot, and I think many will be surprised at how much they save.

ryanz4

It costs me $0 each year to maintain my bike. Every time I found a bike tire in the garbage, I'd bring it home and take the tubes out (that were worth it) so I have a stock pile of tubes which I paid nothing for.
Other than that, my pannier baskets and pump I bought years ago and was a one time purchase that has lasted me years. It will be another few years before I need to buy new panniers and pump. As for my bell. Found it, however I do have a dollar store bell.

Grand total spent on my bike since I've had it ( around 5 years). $25 (w/ taxes)

If I had a car, in one day I'd spend more on it than I've spent on my bike.

Roody

Did you ever lube the chain or change the brake pads?

GodsBassist

In Roody's defense, 5-11k is a lot of an average income, but according to the statistics, that is what people spend on their vehicles.

Average cost per mile in US ~60 cents
Average mileage per year ~11-15k miles
That comes out to 6,600-9000 dollars a year.

You're right in saying that it's very easy to be at the far low end of the spectrum, just by being conscious of where your money is going. It's the people who aren't paying attention to what they're spending on their cars or absolutely have to have the new hummer/corvette or what have you, who are increasing the average.

gerv 

I enjoyed your diatribe. You, sir, are the WS Merwin of BF.

bragi

If your last car cost you 1.71 cents per mile, how many miles did you drive it, and what was the initial purchase price? Assuming that you drove the car 100,000 miles, to get to 1.71 cents per mile, and totally ignoring all fuel and maintenance costs, I'm guessing you paid $1,710.00 for your car. (1.71 * 100,000= 171,000 cents; 171,000/100= 1710.00 dollars.) And remember, this is a calculation that assumes that you paid no insurance, paid nothing for fuel, and had no repairs, expenses which, if factored in, would drive your initial purchase price even lower. Either your car's purchase price was pretty darn low, my math is wrong, or you're able to drive your cars very great distances without having to fix them, insure them, or put fuel in them.

AsanaCycles

WS Merwin?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._S._Merwin
ya?

for the last 2yrs sans Career, I have had much more time to read
my dad passed away this April

as a kid
when i was 14
and we were living in a van
he'd say
"you better move out now, while you still know everything."

another quote that sticks in my head.

yes...
sticks in the head
uhhh... duhhh.... i think i have sticks in my head.

sticks in the head remembers, "you might be surprised what you can learn by reading a book."

in this day and age of Zoom Zoom
we never have time to sit and enjoy a book...

bragi

If what I see on the streets every day is any indication, I think you don't need to worry. There are a lot of cyclists out there, the number increases by the week, and the vast majority of them are not riding a bicyclist's version of a Porsche. Besides, bicycling as sport and bicycling as transportation need not be at odds. I'm not a racer myself, I have a big, heavy steel touring bike with platforms, but I'm a bit of a racing fan, especially the Tour de France (despite the doping scandals). When I see a racer-type bicyclist on a commute in full kit, I may roll my eyes a bit, but I'm still pretty glad to see the guy on a bike instead of in a car.

AsanaCycles

its just a fear of mine
I'm always quick to point it out.

my local bike clubs
we do all sorts of "advocacy" work
but in reality, its more along the lines of keeping trails open for Sport Recreation
we gripe over Traffic Law
but in reality
we are riding on the roads in the scope of Sport Recreation
as if to be playing kick ball in the streets

not too long ago
something happened in Austin, Tx
where a bicyclists was struck and killed by a motorist
by large
the populace of Austin had poured out to real against cyclists on motor ways

at the moment
we, as cyclists are enjoying a hipster surge
only secondary to Economic Crisis

in so many ways
my gut feeling is that
if we, the people, have bailed out our Auto Industry
we ought to employ ourselves
and use American Steel to build trains and rail

make GM produce trains
people are going to make payments every month for transport
rather than $300/mo for a carpayment
how about $30/mo for a train pass?