Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…
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#52
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https://www.giant-bicycles.com/global/tire-pressure
Drops to 63PSI if you're using 22.4mm inner width rims.
Drops to 63PSI if you're using 22.4mm inner width rims.
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#53
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I went to the Flo website for a comparison of hooked and hookless rims. https://blog.flocycling.com/carbon-w...hookless-rims/ Eye opener for me. Those CF hooked sidewalls are thin. No wonder they break. The hookless looks like a 35 year old sewup rims. (So tweak the hookless rim slightly, glue that sewup on, run half the sealant and skip the insert. Light, probably near as fast, no limits on tire pressure and safe. Development costs? Done already! Yes, never going to happen despite being so easy.)
If you were to sew the bottom of the tires together to make a sausage, and with a few grams of high strength glue the tire to this much improved rim, safety would also be improved substantially. Then, in the event of a sudden blowout, the tire would stay put, glued flat on the rim, and not get jammed up in the frame or the brakes. It would be much easier to roll away from a flat.
Of course, with the elimination of the hooks and with a glued-on tire, the rim would now be insulated from tire inflation pressure, so that you could pump up the tire until it exploded. With no pinch flat problems, you could also run the tire at very low pressures. So you could run this system at very wide pressure inflation range.
Perfect solution: lighter stronger, safer.
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#56
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You are on to something. If you reduce the size of the hooks to zero, you'll save a lot of weight at the most critical part of a bike: rotating weight. The elimination of the hooks also makes the rims a lot more robust, and less susceptible to impact damage. Of course, pinch flats would also be eliminated, as the rim profile would be rounded and smooth.
If you were to sew the bottom of the tires together to make a sausage, and with a few grams of high strength glue the tire to this much improved rim, safety would also be improved substantially. Then, in the event of a sudden blowout, the tire would stay put, glued flat on the rim, and not get jammed up in the frame or the brakes. It would be much easier to roll away from a flat.
Of course, with the elimination of the hooks and with a glued-on tire, the rim would now be insulated from tire inflation pressure, so that you could pump up the tire until it exploded. With no pinch flat problems, you could also run the tire at very low pressures. So you could run this system at very wide pressure inflation range.
Perfect solution: lighter stronger, safer.
If you were to sew the bottom of the tires together to make a sausage, and with a few grams of high strength glue the tire to this much improved rim, safety would also be improved substantially. Then, in the event of a sudden blowout, the tire would stay put, glued flat on the rim, and not get jammed up in the frame or the brakes. It would be much easier to roll away from a flat.
Of course, with the elimination of the hooks and with a glued-on tire, the rim would now be insulated from tire inflation pressure, so that you could pump up the tire until it exploded. With no pinch flat problems, you could also run the tire at very low pressures. So you could run this system at very wide pressure inflation range.
Perfect solution: lighter stronger, safer.
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#57
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What is the cost of hooked 303S wheels right now?...or what has Zipp claimed the cost would be of they existed?
Without that actual info or even the claimed cost, it's sorta impossible to say savings were passed on.
When Zipp rolled the 303s out a few years ago, it was a total redesign in shape, features, and cost. It basically isn't comparable as they don't have a hooked version of the current wheel. Also, msrp was $1300. You got em for $900, but let's not pretend like you bought em at full msrp price.
https://bikerumor.com/new-zipp-303-s...ess-expensive/
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Decent balanced analysis https://escapecollective.com/thomas-...arning-to-all/
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The foam inserts are optional for extra flat protection - they can run flat for quite some time, which is useful for racers in some situations. Some teams use foam inserts, some don't.
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lost on the group sorting a replacement bike or wheel.
#61
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The response of my manitou suspension fork can be adjusted by adding or removing air volume. With the same air pressure, different air volumes give widely different responses. It wouldn't be nearly as obvious with tires, but I suppose some difference could be possible.
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Would be interesting to know how much of an effect (if any) foam inserts have on rolling resistance. While they shouldn't directly interact with the tire, they do remove some of the air volume inside the tire.
The response of my manitou suspension fork can be adjusted by adding or removing air volume. With the same air pressure, different air volumes give widely different responses. It wouldn't be nearly as obvious with tires, but I suppose some difference could be possible.
The response of my manitou suspension fork can be adjusted by adding or removing air volume. With the same air pressure, different air volumes give widely different responses. It wouldn't be nearly as obvious with tires, but I suppose some difference could be possible.
Edit: When pressurised these foam inserts pack down into almost zero volume against the rim bed
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As it relates to the thread subject, hopefully they don't weigh close to 50 grams.
#64
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They are $1000-1200 new right now, based on a 30sec search.
What is the cost of hooked 303S wheels right now?...or what has Zipp claimed the cost would be of they existed?
Without that actual info or even the claimed cost, it's sorta impossible to say savings were passed on.
When Zipp rolled the 303s out a few years ago, it was a total redesign in shape, features, and cost. It basically isn't comparable as they don't have a hooked version of the current wheel. Also, msrp was $1300. You got em for $900, but let's not pretend like you bought em at full msrp price.
https://bikerumor.com/new-zipp-303-s...ess-expensive/
What is the cost of hooked 303S wheels right now?...or what has Zipp claimed the cost would be of they existed?
Without that actual info or even the claimed cost, it's sorta impossible to say savings were passed on.
When Zipp rolled the 303s out a few years ago, it was a total redesign in shape, features, and cost. It basically isn't comparable as they don't have a hooked version of the current wheel. Also, msrp was $1300. You got em for $900, but let's not pretend like you bought em at full msrp price.
https://bikerumor.com/new-zipp-303-s...ess-expensive/
As a point of comparison, a set 44mm Light-Bicycle wheels with DT350 and a hooked bead with pillar spokes and brass spoke nipples runs $1335 with freight.
LB makes nice wheels, but the Zipps come with LBS support and a lifetime warranty.
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Maybe not MSRP, but they can regularly found at that price.
As a point of comparison, a set 44mm Light-Bicycle wheels with DT350 and a hooked bead with pillar spokes and brass spoke nipples runs $1335 with freight.
LB makes nice wheels, but the Zipps come with LBS support and a lifetime warranty.
As a point of comparison, a set 44mm Light-Bicycle wheels with DT350 and a hooked bead with pillar spokes and brass spoke nipples runs $1335 with freight.
LB makes nice wheels, but the Zipps come with LBS support and a lifetime warranty.
Zipp wheels are competitively priced, but for me the pressure tolerances are too marginal to consider them at any price.
#66
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Light Bicycle has a North American facility in British Columbia staffed by local employees. Their support is as good as any out there.
Manufacturing savings are not passed to the consumer. Nothing in the bicycle industry is priced based on production costs. A $15k bike does not cost 2x as much to produce as a $7.5k bike. Pricing is set by the marketing department based on retail considerations.
Any manager who brings up the naive idea of "passing on savings" would be immediately fired by the higher ups. Companies always charge the most inflated price they can get away with. In capitalism, any company that doesn't play the same game to maximize income will eventually be outcompeted by richer competitors and go extinct.
Manufacturing savings are not passed to the consumer. Nothing in the bicycle industry is priced based on production costs. A $15k bike does not cost 2x as much to produce as a $7.5k bike. Pricing is set by the marketing department based on retail considerations.
Any manager who brings up the naive idea of "passing on savings" would be immediately fired by the higher ups. Companies always charge the most inflated price they can get away with. In capitalism, any company that doesn't play the same game to maximize income will eventually be outcompeted by richer competitors and go extinct.
Last edited by Yan; 02-27-24 at 11:10 AM.
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#68
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Nobody wants to deal with the impracticality of tubulars, especially without a service car following behind. That’s why they are very close to being history. Even when they were popular in racing, many riders preferred to train on clinchers for easier roadside repair. Now that there is no performance advantage (I realise you are still in denial) there is no need to compromise on practicality.
No performance advantage? Well, I'm pretty sure there's still a weight advantage to tubular rim + tire. That could be worthwhile for a hill climb event. For any other type of riding, forget about it.
Competition kills profits.
Last edited by terrymorse; 02-27-24 at 12:02 PM.
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Light Bicycle has a North American facility in British Columbia staffed by local employees. Their support is as good as any out there.
Manufacturing savings are not passed to the consumer. Nothing in the bicycle industry is priced based on production costs. A $15k bike does not cost 2x as much to produce as a $7.5k bike. Pricing is set by the marketing department based on retail considerations.
Any manager who brings up the naive idea of "passing on savings" would be immediately fired by the higher ups. Companies always charge the most inflated price they can get away with. In capitalism, any company that doesn't play the same game to maximize income will eventually be outcompeted by richer competitors and go extinct.
Manufacturing savings are not passed to the consumer. Nothing in the bicycle industry is priced based on production costs. A $15k bike does not cost 2x as much to produce as a $7.5k bike. Pricing is set by the marketing department based on retail considerations.
Any manager who brings up the naive idea of "passing on savings" would be immediately fired by the higher ups. Companies always charge the most inflated price they can get away with. In capitalism, any company that doesn't play the same game to maximize income will eventually be outcompeted by richer competitors and go extinct.
#70
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Vittoria Air-Liner Road Test | Bicycle Rolling Resistance
Again, the Vittoria testing.
Note the rolling resistance curves presented show that you lose fewer watts by inflating your tires to 100psi than at all the other lower pressures tested. So if hookless were to be counted as a performance road solution, then the system should have the ability to handle these pressures, plus a healthy safety margin.
And inserting a pool noodle into a tire as a backup in the event of a sudden blowout? I think we all have to step back and calmly face the facts as how truly dumb this really is.
This reminds me of the interview with the obviously exasperated head of Vittoria, who was complaining that pro teams that Vittoria did not sponsor were actually riding on his tubular tires - relabeled. Clincher and tubeless options are fine during the marketing campaign, and the team bikes show-and-tell events, but for the actual pro-level riding, you want to be on tubulars.
No pool noodles required.
Again, the Vittoria testing.
Note the rolling resistance curves presented show that you lose fewer watts by inflating your tires to 100psi than at all the other lower pressures tested. So if hookless were to be counted as a performance road solution, then the system should have the ability to handle these pressures, plus a healthy safety margin.
And inserting a pool noodle into a tire as a backup in the event of a sudden blowout? I think we all have to step back and calmly face the facts as how truly dumb this really is.
This reminds me of the interview with the obviously exasperated head of Vittoria, who was complaining that pro teams that Vittoria did not sponsor were actually riding on his tubular tires - relabeled. Clincher and tubeless options are fine during the marketing campaign, and the team bikes show-and-tell events, but for the actual pro-level riding, you want to be on tubulars.
No pool noodles required.
#71
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A pair of BTLOS WARL44 wheels cost $767, if you catch one of their free freight offers. They're 20-30 grams lighter than Zipp 303s and require no rim tape. That's what replaced my 303s wheels. I use 50-55 psi in mine, so pressure safety margin is quite ample.
https://btlos.com/all-road/ar-clinch...arbon-wheelset
https://btlos.com/all-road/ar-clinch...arbon-wheelset
#72
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That aside, Farsports, Winspace, and Light Bicycle are exactly what you're referring to. The Winspace Hyper 50 wheel is universally acclaimed and these Chinese brands have exploded onto the scene in the last few years. Western brands are coasting on momentum and reputation at this point. That's not going to last forever.
And ironically the Chinese brands are still providing hooked. So much for hookless cheaper.
If it was the case that brands are selling both hooked and hookless versions of their wheels, and consumers have the option of saving money by choosing the hookless version, THAT would make sense. But that's not the case, is it? For example if you go to the Hunt website, their high end wheel is $3,000 and it's hookless. Where's the money that I'm supposedly "saving"? Why can't I get a hooked version if I'm willing to pay more? Consumers have been conned, no matter how much the brands try to fluff and spin that hookless is "better".
Yeah, it's better. Better for themselves. Not better for us.
Last edited by Yan; 02-27-24 at 12:26 PM.
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Any manager who brings up the naive idea of "passing on savings" would be immediately fired by the higher ups. Companies always charge the most inflated price they can get away with. In capitalism, any company that doesn't play the same game to maximize income will eventually be outcompeted by richer competitors and go extinct.
If you think that the new bike industry is a cartel, then either you don't understand the definition of that word or you don't understand reality.
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