GeorgeBMac

Wrong,
B12 is B12... It works either way....

GeorgeBMac

[QUOTE=Carbonfiberboy;18383646].
...
Both Ornish and Esselstyn monitored their vegan subjects very closely. That's obviously a good idea. I think if I had been monitored weekly by a specialist when I tried going vary low-fat, the various things that were going sideways for me might have been caught and remedies found.

....

I noticed that Esselstyn did not report monitoring his subjects cholesterol/HDL nor triglycerides/HDL ratios. Many researchers believe these ratios to be more indicative of heart health than total cholesterol. So I wonder what observational studies conclude has the greater effect on preventing CHD.
...
QUOTE]

Oh! So you were following a "low-fat" diet rather than the Ornish reversal diet or the Esseslstyn diet?
... That explains your failure... Either you were following a different protocol or you do not understand those diets and their underlying basis...

And yes, Esselstyn DID monitor his subject's "cholesterol/HDL nor triglycerides/HDL ratios". Every two weeks in fact.

GeorgeBMac

Congrats on your success!
... You obviously worked hard and it has paid off...

The reversal of your plaque is impressive.
And, by the way, I recently read a study that said that a zero percent plaque level provided a 15 year guarantee against heart attack! I don't know if it's true, but I like to think it is. I last had a coronary calcium scan about 20 years ago and it also showed zero percent. But, unfortunately, it looks like my warranty is up -- so I follow the Esselstyn/McDougal type diets...

But I disagree that these diets are 'not for everyone'. If everyone did follow them we would save trillions per year in health care costs treating the chronic diseases caused by the Standard American Diet. I'm not sure how long we can afford to keep paying the bills for those dietary diseases.

GeorgeBMac

Yes, I verified that personally...
When I switched to an Whole Food Plant Based diet, not only did I have to overcome a lifetime of being told I had to eat meat and/or dairy to get enough protein but my nutrionist was very skeptical as well. (However, my wellness physician who works alongside Dr Esselstyn assured me that as long as I took in enough calories that I would also be taking in enough protein).

So, I tracked it myself for over a year along with about 20 other vitamins, minerals and nutrients. And, Yes! My protein intake was well within the standard guidelines for protein whether it was measured as a percent of calories or in grams per kilogram.

The belief that you have to eat meat to get adequate protein is just as much myth as you have to drink milk to get enough calcium.

wolfchild

The point I am trying to make is that a "whole foods diet" should contain all the necessary nutrients which your body needs to function at optimal levels, without having to rely on many different supplements...If you relying heavily of supplements then you're not really following a "whole foods diet"....Any diet trend which relies on supplements to make up for nutritional deficiencies is not really a " whole foods diet".
Taking a lot of supplements means that your diet is unbalanced and deficient in certain important nutrients.

wolfchild

Which standard guidelines are you talking about ??.

Dave Cutter

The Hero syndrome.

You're not saving lives, or effecting how much heat is produced by the Sun (Sun radiation varies). If friends, family, and loved ones think/say you're too skinny.... you likely have an eating disorder. Eating disorders are common and can be treated.

I wish you the best of luck.

Hermes1

B12 is found in sufficient quantity in meat and as such B12 supplement is pretty much required for vegans and is the only supplement I take.

Carbonfiberboy 

I explained that rather carefully in my posts 104 & 108. I followed Ornish's diet and recipes from his book. I was working long hours and it was a total PITA.

The portion of the Esselstyn study that's available online doesn't mention following HDL or other ratios. If I can't read it, as you point out, it doesn't exist for me. His paper says:I note again that he used statins to achieve this goal. IIRC you're an anti-statin person.

In another of his papers

https://www.dresselstyn.com/Esselstyn...-July-2014.pdf he says:If you read the studies referenced, you'd see that he is misrepresenting their conclusions.

Thus it appears that he is uninterested in HDL levels in spite of the strong correlation with low rates of CHD shown in observational studies. That makes me curious about HDL rations in his subjects.

wolfchild

Do you know which country has the highest rates of diabetes ??...It's INDIA. A country well known for having majority of it's population eating whole food plant based diets with very little animal products. People in India eat more rice, lentils, beans, legumes and grains then any American ever will and yet all those healthy whole plant foods do nothing to prevent or eliminate high rates of diabetes in that country. Yes I agree that SAD diet is bad but it seems that " extreme diets" with very heavy emphasis on plants and no animal foods are just as bad.

Harvieu25

My BMI is 20, so I am thinner than most, but you have to remember we as Americans are used to looking at people that are carrying quite a bit extra, and many are obese. But the beauty of being a vegan is that you can eat.
I weigh 136 lbs yet I intake 2500+ calories of whole foods daily, which on days I don't ride (4) in a given week, is more than I need. I don't have a problem eating and in fact out eat anyone I know and my weight has stayed constant 1 year before I started cycling.

Harvieu25

Wrong!

Prevalence of Diabetes in the World, 2013 | Health Intelligence

Harvieu25

Here's another example.
When I was eating a balanced diet, fruits, veggies, meat (all kinds) and dairy, my glucose was 87 and my A1C was 5.0
One year vegan and my glucose was 78 and my A1C was 4.5

It is well documented that the fat in meat and dairy are the cause of high blood sugar, among other problems.

Keep preaching the pitfalls of being vegan to people that are and see where it gets you. No

Carbonfiberboy 

This list:
Countries ranked by Diabetes prevalence (% of population ages 20 to 79)
has the US 57th and India 63rd.

Still, 57th place is hella good. Not the placing that one would assume from reading the ranting against the US diet on the forum.

This whole list is like hilarious. Saudis are at #2 , 23.9% diabetic. We're 9.39%. The UK, well known to have the worst food in the world, are at 3.9%. National Health Care, anyone? This list may vary more by health care system than by diet. Look where the pig-eating European countries are: Germany 7.93%, Czech Republic 6.59%. How about the world's greatest beer consumption country, Australia? 4.08%! Mutton and beer diet anyone?

As I quoted that researcher earlier, no one can prove doodly-squat about the relationship of diet to health.

Carbonfiberboy 

To add to the hilarity, here's a graph of countries, with sugar per capita on the Y axis and fat on the x axis:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...sugar-and-fat/

The US and India, with almost identical diabetes rates, are in opposite corners of this graph.

I also looked at health care system rankings. Better correlation there than by diet, but still not great.

Obesity rates have a decent correlation with diabetes rates, though again, not great:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2228rank.html

wolfchild

Here you go: The current state of diabetes mellitus in India

wolfchild

According to this list it looks like Middle eastern/South Asian countries and Caribbean are the highest.
The diet staples in Middle east are bread/grains and sweets. Mostly vegan diet consisting of carbs and sugar.
Diet staples in Caribbean are rice and legumes, sweet tropical fruits, starchy sweet root vegetables and sugar cane. Mostly vegan diet consisting of carbs and sweets.

gregf83 

That's the highest absolute number of diabetics not the highest rate of diabetes.

Carbonfiberboy 

Not a good correlation with sugar, see post 140.

Harvieu25

The use of added sugar is different than the sugar in fruit. Fruit has fiber and water so its a whole food. Half the sugar in fruit is fructose (not high fructose corn syrup) and needs no insulin to be injected into the cells. The other sugars are regulated by the fiber. I average 500 grams of carbs a day, and my sugar is 200 + grams, but yet my blood sugar went down. Splain that Lucy...

wolfchild

If it's not high sugar intake. What is it then ??... What makes some people in certain countries more vulnerable to developing obesity and diabetes then people in other countries ??...Genetic ??.. Lack of exercise??.. Adoption of western food pyramid and lifestyle ??...Obesity and diabetes was almost
non-existent before industrial revolution when food production was a lot less advanced.

Humans used fat as food for thousands of years without any problems. Refined sugar was non-existent. Large scale sugar production only started around the time of industrial revolution. Sweet foods such as fruits were extremely limited back in the old days and used only seasonally. It's interesting to note that middle-eastern countries and tropical countries with high rates of diabetes and obesity also have an abundance of very sweet fruits such as dates, figs and other sweet sugary fruits.

Dave Cutter

Well within the normal range.

Harvieu25

Your in a Vegan thread trying to preach about how bad veganism is, you should try another topic. Veganism is not only here to stay but is growing each day. Do some research, then come on in, the water is JUST right....

Ball Bearing

Very little animal products??? Ever hear of ghee? Practically everything in India is dripping with ghee - which is most certainly an animal product.

Your attempted co relation of diabetes and a vegan diet is a fantasy.

"Sugar and sweet consumption have been popular and intrinsic to Indian culture, traditions, and religion from ancient times. In this article, we review the data showing increasing sugar consumption in India, including traditional sources (jaggery and khandsari) and from sugar-sweetened beverages (SSBs). Along with decreasing physical activity, this increasing trend of per capita sugar consumption assumes significance in view of the high tendency for Indians to develop insulin resistance, abdominal adiposity, and hepatic steatosis, and the increasing “epidemic” of type 2 diabetes (T2DM) and cardiovascular diseases.Sugar and sweet consumption have been popular and intrinsic to Indian culture, traditions, and religion from ancient times. In this article, we review the data showing increasing sugar consumption in India, including traditional sources (jaggery and khandsari) and from sugar-sweetened beverages (SSBs). Along with decreasing physical activity, this increasing trend of per capita sugar consumption assumes significance in view of the high tendency for Indians to develop insulin resistance, abdominal adiposity, and hepatic steatosis, and the increasing “epidemic” of type 2 diabetes (T2DM) and cardiovascular diseases...."

Sugar Intake, Obesity, and Diabetes in India

Carbonfiberboy 

Don't you notice that most folks who post on this forum are successful with their food choices? Everyone, no matter the diet, reports improved lipids and various other signs of good health. I find this variance fascinating. What do these folks have in common? From my WP link in post 140: This theory does answer your assertion about the industrial revolution. It became too easy to eat too much of whatever with the micronutrients stripped out. Fruit juice. Not-fruit-juice. Industrial meat. Cheap fats composed of unhealthy fatty acids. Etc.

These questions are what interests me. What we don't know. Maybe the true value of a natural foods vegan diet is simply that it's a PITA compared with the SAD. Closer to the soil and more time spent = fewer calories, more micronutrients. Even better, go into the forest and harvest your aboriginal local foods.