gauvins

Three is a (remote) chance that I'll have to assemble a new touring rig. I am very pleased by my LHT, but somewhat leaning towards a Disk Trucker.

V-brakes work for me, and i like the idea that spares are available everywhere, and not that likely to be needed anyway. On the downside, it is not trivial to squeeze a "fat" (2.1") between the brakes' jaws.

Disc brakes are said to be more effective... and finding rims suitable for Vs is becoming surprisingly difficult. I apprehend warped rotors (bike will fly several times a year) and noise due to pads not being perfectly aligned.

But tech improves and I may be attached to something definitely obsolete.

What's the current wisdom?

(Familiar with the countless threads on disc vs non-disc. But touring is a different beast, and the market appears to have reached a tipping point)

jefnvk

If I were custom building from scratch, I'd spec V brakes. Never had an issue getting a 2" tire in mine. Unless looking for something rather specific, I'd have a hard time believing rim brake rims are becoming hard to find.

If I'm buying the bike off the shelf, so long as they were decently specd, the brakes wouldn't matter much to me if the rest of it was to my liking. I'd still pick V if all else were equal tho.

Its worth noting that Fuji offers its touring bike in both configs.

indyfabz

DanBell

I did about 20,000km on Avid BB7s and currently have another 20,000 on TRP Spyres. My friend has about 7,000km on Hayes CX Expert. All are cable actuated discs, all have been problem free. The BB7s didn't squeal when I first had them, but at some point the front one started to squeal and I couldn't get rid of it. Luckily it wasn't all the time but I honestly could not discover the cause. The TRPs use the standard Shimano pads, and I see them constantly in bike shops throughout Mexico, Central, and South America. The Hayes pads are less common but we still see them occasionally. All the riding on the Avids was in Japan, so there was no worry about finding replacement parts.

Most people I believe prefer cable discs to hydraulic for touring with the thought that you could bodge together some kind of fix if you need a replacement cable and can't find the actual part necessary, but I'm sure that people tour on hydraulic with no issues also.

All that being said, I wouldn't have any issue using rim brakes on a touring bike. They work well and are dependable.

Happy Feet

from the actual touring bikes I see on the road (vs advertising of current years offerings) I don't think there is a trend in touring either way. People are all over the map and it seems to be an individual thing. Also don't think rim brakes will go obsolete any time soon. Go with what you like.

fietsbob

People ride bikes on tours ,right now , with Disc Brakes,
that is the Current Status..



...

Tourist in MSN

I built up a new touring bike last spring. Frame was disc only. Fork was optional, they wanted $300 for a disc fork, but I had a rim brake fork in storage so I used that instead. Thus, have a bike with rim brake front, disc rear. Overall I am unimpressed with disc brakes for normal riding in dry conditions, the V brake (Koolstop Salmon pads) is much better than the disc (TRP Spyre, oem pads & disc). With panniers on front and rear, neither brake was really adequate on a rainy day but in rain the disc was better than rim brakes. But that is about all I can say that is really positive on the disc brakes.

That bike with both rim and disc brakes, I almost wish the rim brake was worse at times. A few weeks ago a bozo was in the lane to my left and suddenly decided to make a lane change into my lane. Was very sudden and all I could do to avoid being the victim of a car/bike crash was to slam on the brakes hard. My rim brake was so good that I went over the handlebars. I only had one small pannier on the back which was inadequate to hold the back wheel down.

All my other bikes are rim brake only, which is fine with me. Also of note, none of my bikes has hydraulic brakes. I want stuff that is easy to work on.

You mention wide tires and rim brakes, I agree that rim brakes can be a hassle with wide tires when you are taking a wheel out or putting one in. I occasionally forget that I can't fully pump up a tire until after I have the tire in the bike.

I have not had any noise from my disc. I occasionally have noise problems with a rim brake. I see this as a non-issue.

If I was to take a disc wheel out of the bike for packing for flying, I would remove the rotor first.

One advantage to discs that I can see, a friend of mine built up a bike with disc so that he can run narrow 700c or wide 650b tires, you can't do that with rim brakes. If you want one do-it-all bike, that is a factor to consider.

alan s 

elcruxio

Well, as I've stated many times I have both as I have an LHT frame with a disc trucker fork. I'm a little on the fence whether I'd like to get a full disc system but if I could do it for free I'd swap for full disc in a heartbeat. But I'd also not go hydraulic for maintenance and security reasons.

I don't think bending discs is as big of a deal as one might think, even though they do take some more care. When using lowrider front rack the disc is completely protected by the lowrider itself. The rear is protected by the frame. When traveling or flying if one is worried about the rotors bending in the wheels one could always just take them off the wheel. Remounting rotors isn't a big deal.

In my personal experience discs are easier to deal with than rim brakes. Avid BB7's are almost set and forget. Occasionally adjust the pad adjusters and swap pads when necessary. With my current rear brake (avid shorty ultimate) swapping pads is a nightmare and takes usually from 2 to 5 hours to do properly. There is a pretty big design flaw in these brakes that makes using kool stop pads very difficult... Also they have spontaneously started squealing like no disc brake can even achieve and in the process much of the power is gone. Weird that.

For longevity and maintenance reasons I think discs also win. No wear on rims meaning longer wheel life especially if one needs to ride in the rain. I use the front disc almost exclusively when braking so my rear rim is still in very good condition. Still, there is some noticeable wear after three years of active all year riding.

There is one down side to disc brakes and that is heat capacity. It's not a deal breaker but it is something that needs to be accounted for. When traveling heavy the rotor size should increase accordingly. I use a 203mm rotor when I tour because it has a lot of capacity and power but I have managed to cook it nonetheless once or twice. With rim brakes of course there's the same consideration but one just needs to be mindful of braking technique. Though with mechanical discs the results of a cookoff are just that you lose some braking power and you need to re bed in your pads since they have been glazed over. With rim brakes overheating risks the tube and can cause a blowout or a melting failure of the pads.
But both are only really issues if doing really intense alpine descents etc. When going flat, doesn't really matter.
But that's also one point into the disc brake's counter. You can modify braking power by swapping the rotor size / pads. With rims only pads really make a difference. There are some exotic rim options, but rims are expensive, rotors are cheap.

With tire sizing it's pretty obvious discs win. They simply do not care about tires. With rims it is much more of an issue.

manapua_man

I just realized that I've been using the same rims on my hardtail for something like 10-15 years now. Had to replace rotors, but haven't had to do much other than get new bearings and re-grease the hubs.


IMHO it's not worth fretting over brakes unless you ride mountain bikes, and even then it's only super critical for DH stuff or for people that actually race.

elcruxio

When you have a certain brake system them definitely not. But when one has a choice...
Personally I see no real downsides to discs. But I still rock rim brakes on two bikes and they work fine too. But for me there are few better sounds than the soft FRRRR of a well functioning disc brake. But as a commuter and city rider I'm also a pretty big brake user so there's that too.

DropBarFan

I bought a 559mm/26" Disc Trucker for the combo of having disc brakes + wide tire clearance. I've used both Avid BB7 & TRP Spyre disc brakes which are better than any rim brake I've used, esp for the smoother modulation & superior wet-weather performance. IMHO rim brakes are on the way out for touring bikes, I'd like to see more hydro options.

Trevtassie

I have cooked my discs touring, never cooked rims. You need to watch out for steep sections where you need to brake constantly because you can't let speed build up because of the road surface or some other reason. Discs like to be pulsed, dump a heap of heat in quickly, then let it radiate/convect out quickly. Constant energy input will eventually see them fade if the hill is steep or long enough and you are heavily loaded. . Either brake type; use wind resistance to you advantage if you can, sit up before the corner and turn yourself into a parachute then do the braking you need to in a short burst, allowing time for the heat to dissipate before the next corner.
Unfortunately it may reach a stage where it's hard to spec a tourer with rim brakes, as good quality rims with brake tracks are becoming less common.

DIY masochist

Totally agree. Disc brakes do have to be dialed in a lot more accurately than rim brakes, but once you understand how to properly center them and move the pads in, it's way less work. I have adjusted so many crappy rim brakes that are impossible to get centered and the pads never seem to spring back to a state where they're both the same distance from the rim. I have Avid BB7s as well, and they're a dream to adjust in comparison. I do have some squealing right now that I can't quite get rid of, but whatever. They perform way better than any rim brakes I have ever had, especially in the rain. The only way I'd go back is if I picked up a super light or vintage road bike.

That said, I have some disc brakes on my (2011?) Cannondale mountain bike that are a huge pain to adjust (Promax.) It depends what you get.

DropBarFan

Have you tried Icetech-type rotors? Haven't tried 'em myself.

I'd like to be able to get rotors a bit truer to get quicker actuation--a truing fork works OK but I've been curious about a rotor-truing jig. It's a bit ironic to see so many casual riders using disc brakes, if the cheaper rim brakes had been better they'd hardly need a reason to switch.

djb

Drop--re truing rotors, the few times I have had to do a slight truing, I used either a cleaned adjustable plier or even my hand, and just eyeballed it, and it was fine.
i prefer to have my levers engage half way down, I find it gives better modulation and finger hand force than instant application--hence there is more clearance between disc and pads, bonus being not so super critical on the exact trueness front

I fixed a neighbours bike recently, a shifting issue, and noticed his front wheel turned slowly with bike on stand. Sure enough, his hydraulic caliper was rubbing sightly, no pad adjustments available, and hardly discernable rotor to pad spacing. He had put anti theft skewers on and it needed a smidge of a loosen and wheel shift, we're talking itsy bit, but fixed the rubbing.
I only know BB7s, which have pad adjustments for both pads, but one really doesn't have to touch them for ages when set up properly.

Trevtassie

Switch to TRP Spykes. A heap better setup than the BB7. Both pads move and you can do interim adjustments by simply taking up cable slack, I didn't need to adjust mine over 1400km of loaded touring, including quite a few rainy days (which sucked). Next step will be to go to 203mm discs, TRP do one with an aluminium centre so I'll try that. I have Icetech discs on my MTB, they work good, but the swept area is too small for the M525/TRP pads.

Marcus_Ti

The rotors as well as nicer pads. Of course, he leaves out what rotors size he's using. I keep 160mm rotors front and rear--while many road(ish) bikes spec smaller rotors....which makes heat build up and fade more of a problem. Granted I'm in the Great Plains, where massive miles-long-mountains are seldom found or ridden.

djb

meh, can't be bothered as the bb7's just plain work. I hardly ever have to touch the adjustment wheels for the pads, even in touring in mountainous terrain. I think I did a slight slight front adjustment once during a 3000km mountainy trip, so it just aint an issue, certainly not enough to buy new stuff.
I dont argue that the trp are well designed, its just for me the old bb7's do their job for me with 160mm rotors on a fully loaded bike in mountains with hard stops.

elcruxio

The Spyre/Spyke concept is nice but it's severely lacking when compared to the BB7. The main flaw they have is the lack of a floating piston, which the BB7 has. The floating piston essentially means one pad will always be in perfect contact with the rotor. If properly adjusted and setup the non moving pad will also be in almost perfect contact since the CPS washers align the caliper body.

The Spyre/spyke system does not allow for CPS washers, nor do they have the aforementioned floating piston which A) makes setup quite tricky and B) there's a high likelihood the pads will initially not contact the rotor perfectly meaning there's then bending and twisting of the pads when one brakes. This is what I suspect is the reason why spyres are extremely spongy when compared to BB7, which has a nice firm lever feel.
Also, like I've mentioned earlier, I got more power from BB7 160mm rotor than I got from Spyre 203mm rotor. Same pad compound. The BB7 road is so powerful in fact that I'm hesitant of putting a 203mm rotor on even with a full touring load. It's above and beyond more powerful than the mountain version BB7.

Also the lack of some sort of retaining system in the spyre pad adjusters just means they'll back down to their original positions. There is some weak thread locker which of course is useless after the first proper application of the brakes since threadlocker isn't heat resistant.

Spyres are also quite badly sealed (read, they're not sealed) against the elements so to keep them from seizing they do require maintenance. Problem is that TRP doesn't want you opening these bad boys so you need some exotic stuff to maintain them (T40)

elcruxio

A quick update.

Just took my Spyres apart and... Well let's just say these are not touring brakes. There is literally nothing preventing your run of the mill rainwater just seeping in. Nothing, zero, nada. Nothing even resembling a seal. If water can just flow in in a light drizzle I wonder what's going to happen when things get a more challenging.

alan s 

linus

I have used 160mm Ice-Tech rotors with Hy/rd in Thailand last year. It worked okay, but I wanted more power so I went with Etap HRD with Dura-Ace 160mm Ice-tech Rotors in Oregon last year and the setup was awesome.

Early this year, I put DA 140mm CL rotors for Vietnam and the setup was perfect. It felt really good. I was doing 80~90km/h downhill switchback to test out the brakes and there was no fade at all.

Anybody still unsure whether to go with disc brake or not, just do it. If you can, go with hydraulic instead of cables. Thank me later.

Trevtassie

Are we talking the same BB7 here?
The one with a fixed caliper and adjustments for both pads because one piston is not floating? The one were the moving pad distorts the disc over on to the fixed pad, ie there's NO floating piston in the BB7, not even a floating caliper, which is what a single piston disc brake should have.
And the CPS washers that the Spyke doesn't need, because it's not a single piston fixed caliper, so it doesn't wear the disc unevenly and thus doesn't need CPS washers (best you send a strongly worded email to Shimano and ask them why the don't supply CPS washers with their twin piston calipers?) The set up instructions for the Spyke are: Loosely fit caliper, adjust each adjusting screw evenly with a 3mm allen key, to get the pads close to the disc, tighten the cable adjuster to lock on the caliper, tighten mounting bolts, loosen cable. That's it, by design, like all twin piston calipers, the body is already in alignment with the disc. A hell of a lot less than trying to align a BB7, especially with worn pads and discs, where you need to decide which pad you are going align parallel with the worn disc surface, which will always have a slight taper because the caliper and psitons are fixed and the disc flexes.
And the fact that neither the BB7 or the Spyke have seals on the inside of the piston(s) next to the rotor so both can get water inside easily and both need basic servicing, with the adjuster of the fixed piston of the BB7 regularly seizing up so you need a torx driver to adjust it? The BB7 only has a seal on the outside of the actuating shaft. I'll give you that TRP should put a little more grease on the anti friction ball race from new (which the BB7 doesn't have, thus contributing towards that spongy bending the disc feeling they have) but neither caliper has a way of stopping water from coming in from the disc side and getting into the cam area.
From the point of view of being able upgrade the discs, the BB7 is a dead end in anything other than disc size because it flexes the disc sideways, so no aluminium center rotors. It needs thin flexible discs.
I have both TRPs and BB7 on my touring bike. TRP on the front and BB7 on the back,and the front was previously a BB7 so I could compare the two, on the same bike under roughly the same conditions (the BB7 had a 160mm disc however). The feel of the TRP is heaps better.

djb

re bb7 disc flex, I adjust the non moving pad somewhat close to the disc so that not too much disc flex happens. Its easy to do and eliminates the flex issue. Learned the hard way from having too much space.

I figure both systems work well and lots of people have used bb7s now for long long trips and once you learn the tricks, they arent a problem. Im sure that spyres would be fine for me too, and I have had a mechanic tell me that they are easier to set up, but he did say also they are a bit too close to spokes....
but hey, Im sure both are fine, and again, as I have the avids, I just use em and had to learn new skills messing with them, making mistakes, not adjusting them properly, figuring it out and then living with them happily for about 4 1/2 months total of heavily loaded touring over three trips.