52telecaster

your logic is sick. with this outlook youre going to have a lousy life.

EdwinHeadwind

Unwritten rules aren't rules. Do your arguments even make sense to you?

124Spider

The "hide" option on internet forums was created, as far as I'm concerned, so that I can flag those who cannot engage in rational, adult discussion. It's a remarkably effective tool; I urge you to use it for those you obviously find (and correctly, IMO) fit that description.

EdwinHeadwind

Good idea! Problem is, as a rhetorician of sorts, I find his absurd posts to be almost as entertaining as they are aggravating -- it's like a slow-motion trainwreck of logical fallacies and twisted rationalizations. Besides, I've got some autographed Lance memorabilia I want to unload, and I'm thinking McDLT might be a potential customer.

124Spider

Understood. I used to play that game, also. But then I finally realized that these people are serious, and an impressive combination of clueless about facts, and logically deficient. So I gave it up as a bad bet.

Doge

And others...
I do not advocate cheating, but the reality is I see in every top level of the sport and it is the referee's job to decide what is too much. When it is minor cheating it is called gamesmanship. It has to be grey because authorities make stupid rules. They send kids home for having plastic knives (our elementary school). But when is a wood spoon a knife?

USA Cycling gets into this. I'm sure you read your membership agreement ... anyone under 21 cannot use tobacco - (even legally). You all read that right before you signed?
The way you get back on the peloton after a mechanical is drafting. Right in front of a ref - that is how it is done. The rules are against it, but whatever. Stickey bottle - that is how you get your bottles. Do it tooo much and the referee penalizes you. Lance just did it too much and was not caught. If he had been caught, I think his penalty would have been less.

As to Barry Bonds having the home run record - think games are about winning, not record stats. If I wanted stats, I'd want to know who lifted the most, hit the farthest, ran the fastest. My thinking is there is a high probability they used PEDs to do that. Until we can fix it everywhere, it is not worth going after - so yea, if Barry Bonds hit the most he hit the most, because I believe he just also got caught.

"Doping" can be minimal to major. If it is major, bust it, if minor, let it go, just like everything else. Or be like the elementary school and suspend the kid for 3 days who takes a plastic knife to school.

I have hundreds of videos, mostly by me I have taken on this stuff. It is generally a judgment call. USAC is a bit different in they have the athlete sign agreements all the time. Not done with the soccer games I officiated (1,000+), players play and I decided when it was too much.

For amateurs, I see less rule breaking when there are fewer officials and rules - another discussion point.

Doge

Right in front of all the referees - they teach that is not allowed.
But that is how it is done. Much more significant than doping.

Start at 1:06

McBTC

The sanctimonious high and mighty aren't just holier than Lance... they're the conscience of humanity-- so above greed.. so full of integrity. As Nietzsche would observe, "Ah! how ineptly cometh the word "virtue" out of their mouth! And when they say: "I am just," it always soundeth like: "I am just -- revenged!"

124Spider

It's too bad that "ignore" on this board isn't like "block" on Facebook. It's very nice to be reminded that I have already determined that engaging with a particular person isn't worth the trouble, but it would be so much nicer if he/she were invisible to me (and vice versa)!

Maelochs

I was born with an "ignore' function ... i call it ... ignoring. Right now I am only reading posts be posters who are closer to rational ... but if someone else cites something said by the highly prejudiced, highly irrational few, i can go back and reference it.

base2 

Wrong. Chain-L is best. Everyone knows $18 for 10 oz of bar oil works better than $7/quart bar oil.

Doge

I don't know if that was mine, but here is the general thought behind my arguments.

There are sports and games where the rules are totally controllable. There are ones where many things are left to nobility and honor.
For the latter - making rules about what cannot be controlled is useless. It actually makes those with nobility and honor at a disadvantage, and the smart ones, with other options - don't participate. If instead in the latter cases you set basic agreed to ground rules (like the course, the finish) and leave the rest to nobility and honor - you get more of exactly that. You see less cheating. This is the same logic as only outlaws will have guns...I don't have a gun, but I have that logic.

There is such an event locally. It is a memorial race, with a big cup going back to 1976. There are a few rules. Everyone starts together at the memorial / prayer spot. You stop at stop lights. In this (non-USAC/UCI) even all kinds of USAC and UCI rules are broken. But I have not seen the winners protest. Some of the old guys decide who really won with help of the many spectators and cars and video guys. This event has many very elite racers but it is not a pro event. Your teammates are not depending on you.

For pros, they are in the entertainment business. Their $ value is based on money generated from commerce due to watching them.
If "they" spend those thousands of dollar / rider to control it, the viewership and their value may suffer. I believe that is why the public knows very little about pro teams in the big entertainment sports. We don't want to know "how the sausage is made". I didn't think cycling was much different.

indyfabz

Is that you, Lance? Because only a doper would believe that.

manapua_man

Man you just sound assblasted because most people don't like cheaters. And it comes across as projection on top of it.


I *personally* don't like the dude and some of his buddies because they came across as self entitled ******** each time I ran into em.

Otherwise I don't care a whole lot about pro cycling.

McBTC

Naw… just playin' with the haters. People do change, as much as some want to hold others is a certain light and never change themselves. Simple fact is, the haters weren't screwed out of being pro tour champions because LA cheated. And LA wouldn't do again. All the cyclists were in the same boat. Maybe some used drugs more or less but if LA cannot be believed about anything, nor can anyone else. What LA did he did for glory and because, he wanted to be the best cyclist in the world and then in history and he achieved that goal but then... you could say, he was cheated out of the recognition so all his work was for nothing. Sure, sure, he may have walked away with a few bucks but, applying as much effort as he dedicated to reaching the pinnacle of the sport, anyone else he competed with would have taken the yellow jersey and walked away with the prize money and they'd have cheated too.

Maelochs

No, sir, as i stated above, I have been reading your posts for years and have a lot of respect for you.

I understand your points here, and they are rational, and well supported. I heartily dislike some of your attitudes, but they are based in real-world observation and analysis. they are sensible and comprehendable. it is sort of like a debate between a religious/ spiritual believer and an atheist/agnostic---it doesn't have to turn nasty, and both sides can make clear points without adding up points for a win---no one is trying to convince the other they are wrong.

I really appreciate your views. I am not so small (well, sometimes ... ) that i need people to agree with me. I am perfectly happy with rational, intelligent people presenting rational intelligent points that differ from my views. I am not afraid that I might learn something, or even change my mind ... it Could happen.

If the trolls and loons were as rational as yourself, the site would be a lot more educational and a lot less annoying ... but a lot less comical. But then ... is it PC to laugh at the antics of the mentally or morally underprivileged? I am such an atavist.

Hope your kid enjoyed his racing career and glad he didn't hurt himself with steroids.

He is old enough now to hurt himself with more entertaining drugs, anyway.

EdwinHeadwind

Then by the same reasoning, his defenders are as bereft of integrity as he is. Own it.

Paul Barnard

If nothing else, this thread makes it apparent that Lance still has star power.

shoota 

Wrong. Just, no.

Nachoman

Nice!

avole

Did you practice at this moronic drivel, or did it come naturally? I hope the former, if the latter then seek help. There are such things as logic, proof and conclusons based on a healthy amount of both. You seem to live in a fantasy world at the moment.

Doge

You know this but...
It was not a career, it was something hard to do for child development. No PEDs were taken*.
I doubt he does the more entertaining drugs. He did smoke a cigar with 4,000 other cadets at Christmas dinner. That is grounds for being banned from USAC racing - really. Except he, like everyone else didn't read the fine print that I did.

But to drugs / PEDs and age.
There are stimulants, recovery, and building (Steroid), hormones. Some are banned, some are not, most you don't know as there are hundreds*. Not knowing is a valid excuse.
Stimulants generally work at any age, as do most recovery drugs. But I think 23-30, and in rec seems 40+, high in 50+.
Steroids work, but in developing teens, will reduce the body's natural production. That is bad.
It is hard to find artificial hormones better than what a 15-18 year old male is producing. It will help females much more. But cycling is an endurance sport, so mass matters. For body building it would help, at the expense of less of that hormone later.
I can comment on the others, but the youth races are too short, and no need for recovery. So also not used. That is also why I doubt it is done much in USA teens.

avole

I see. I'm assuming, therefore, that you think teens from other countries wolf the stuff down.

McBTC

​​​​​​Lance also seems to be a lightening rod for embittered and pitiable souls who can only dream of holding up his bloody severed head as an example to all who would dare fate...

EdwinHeadwind

I love when this fount of blathering nonsense and histrionics calls other people sanctimonius. LOL