B Carre/G Derepas rough draft.
03-12-20, 10:40 AM
#1
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B Carre/G Derepas rough draft.
So, back in late January, I bought this French frame, probably from the late 70s (a guess) that had been damaged. Price was decent. There are a couple threads on this frame, one when the forum member who sold me the frame acquired it and then the for sale thread which enticed me to buy it. Fork damage, frame finish damage and seat clamp damage were all pictured in those threads.
Because there is doubt that the damaged fork (bent up and steerer really fubar) was original to the bike (doesn't appear to be similar quality to the rest of the frame, Simplex fork ends but Campagnolo dropouts, stamped and welded fork crown) it didn't seem practical to have the fork repaired and have the steerer replaced. Besides that, I had a couple forks that would likely fit the frame. These had been acquired over the years as replacement/upgrades for the 26tpi Nottingham forks that came with a couple small Super Course MKIIs. Undamaged forks on the SCs, but I just hate those crappy forks.
So, the fork I used is Japanese and all chromed but just the bottom 3/4 of the legs are polished. Nice crown for nutted brakes, re-enforcements on the inside of the legs. Installed with a Tange Levin headset and it came out sized perfectly with the centerpull hanger and the washer that came with the headset. Some people might find this fork looks familiar. I think I've seen it before, maybe on Schwinn Superiors, but I'm not sure. It's very similar, afaict. I know it's sort of wrong to put a Japanese fork on this bike, but practicality and the fact that I already had it won out.
I got the bike on the road about 5 weeks ago and rode it about 50 miles or so, and it's a real nice roller and a pretty easy handling bike. It rides no-hands easily at low speeds but doesn't seem to be very nimble, so there must be sufficient trail. I suppose I should figure that out. Just got back to it today and rode for the first time with the Dia Compe bar end shifters that are supposed to be like the old Sun Tours as far as operation. They work fine.
So, here it is earlier today.
Really like the 3TTT stems. Weinmann 610 brakes for now and after disparaging the Weinmann levers recently, figured I need to give them a chance. New hoods came from a seller in France and took about 6 weeks to get here, but they fit well and with shipping were less than $13. Here's the ebay ad for these hoods. They were suggested for 1st generation Dura Ace levers, but they fit the Weinmanns better, in my opinion. Tried to fit MAFAC Competition brakes, but they wouldn't quite reach. Turns out, the reach on the MAFAC Competitions is a bit less than either the 610s or MAFAC Racers so I may try to install Racers later.
Better picture of the hoods. Pretty decent.
Wheels will probably be replaced with a set using Normandy Luxe gold label hubs and those old style Simplex skewers. Would seem more appropriate than the Nuove Tipos. Probably keep NR mechs and the Stronglight crankset.
Here's a photo that shows the area on the dt that has the paint damage. Looks like the dt probably suffered damage in the same event that destroyed the fork and then was rolled back to round. There are marks and apparent metal loss on the little shifter retention tab which would seem to indicate some pretty serious mechanical effort. I suspect that one of those frame straightening jacks, or a similar tool, was also used. The dt seems arrow straight and there doesn't appear to be any residual damage to the top tube. All indications and measurements seem to be good. The only "feature" from the work that remains and may be a problem later is that the threads on the left side of the bb (adjustable cup) are sloppy. Got it tight for now, but if it doesn't make it over the long term I may red lock tite the fixed cup on the left and use the adjustable cup on the right where the threads seem to be ok. Or, may end up with a VO threadless BB.
Probably put a couple hundred miles on it within the next month or so and see how everything holds up and then try my hand at a partial or full repaint. It's a good candidate for experimentation, I think. Don't know what to do about decals though as it doesn't seem right to call it a Carre' and it's not a Bertin and the guy who may have built it, G Derepas in Dijon, there doesn't seem to be anything to go on as to what would be appropriate. Think I might make up my own brand: CAMUS and the model will be L'Étranger . Better than The Plague, I guess.
One more photo -- gratuitous drive side shot:
Because there is doubt that the damaged fork (bent up and steerer really fubar) was original to the bike (doesn't appear to be similar quality to the rest of the frame, Simplex fork ends but Campagnolo dropouts, stamped and welded fork crown) it didn't seem practical to have the fork repaired and have the steerer replaced. Besides that, I had a couple forks that would likely fit the frame. These had been acquired over the years as replacement/upgrades for the 26tpi Nottingham forks that came with a couple small Super Course MKIIs. Undamaged forks on the SCs, but I just hate those crappy forks.
So, the fork I used is Japanese and all chromed but just the bottom 3/4 of the legs are polished. Nice crown for nutted brakes, re-enforcements on the inside of the legs. Installed with a Tange Levin headset and it came out sized perfectly with the centerpull hanger and the washer that came with the headset. Some people might find this fork looks familiar. I think I've seen it before, maybe on Schwinn Superiors, but I'm not sure. It's very similar, afaict. I know it's sort of wrong to put a Japanese fork on this bike, but practicality and the fact that I already had it won out.
I got the bike on the road about 5 weeks ago and rode it about 50 miles or so, and it's a real nice roller and a pretty easy handling bike. It rides no-hands easily at low speeds but doesn't seem to be very nimble, so there must be sufficient trail. I suppose I should figure that out. Just got back to it today and rode for the first time with the Dia Compe bar end shifters that are supposed to be like the old Sun Tours as far as operation. They work fine.
So, here it is earlier today.
Really like the 3TTT stems. Weinmann 610 brakes for now and after disparaging the Weinmann levers recently, figured I need to give them a chance. New hoods came from a seller in France and took about 6 weeks to get here, but they fit well and with shipping were less than $13. Here's the ebay ad for these hoods. They were suggested for 1st generation Dura Ace levers, but they fit the Weinmanns better, in my opinion. Tried to fit MAFAC Competition brakes, but they wouldn't quite reach. Turns out, the reach on the MAFAC Competitions is a bit less than either the 610s or MAFAC Racers so I may try to install Racers later.
Better picture of the hoods. Pretty decent.
Wheels will probably be replaced with a set using Normandy Luxe gold label hubs and those old style Simplex skewers. Would seem more appropriate than the Nuove Tipos. Probably keep NR mechs and the Stronglight crankset.
Here's a photo that shows the area on the dt that has the paint damage. Looks like the dt probably suffered damage in the same event that destroyed the fork and then was rolled back to round. There are marks and apparent metal loss on the little shifter retention tab which would seem to indicate some pretty serious mechanical effort. I suspect that one of those frame straightening jacks, or a similar tool, was also used. The dt seems arrow straight and there doesn't appear to be any residual damage to the top tube. All indications and measurements seem to be good. The only "feature" from the work that remains and may be a problem later is that the threads on the left side of the bb (adjustable cup) are sloppy. Got it tight for now, but if it doesn't make it over the long term I may red lock tite the fixed cup on the left and use the adjustable cup on the right where the threads seem to be ok. Or, may end up with a VO threadless BB.
Probably put a couple hundred miles on it within the next month or so and see how everything holds up and then try my hand at a partial or full repaint. It's a good candidate for experimentation, I think. Don't know what to do about decals though as it doesn't seem right to call it a Carre' and it's not a Bertin and the guy who may have built it, G Derepas in Dijon, there doesn't seem to be anything to go on as to what would be appropriate. Think I might make up my own brand: CAMUS and the model will be L'Étranger . Better than The Plague, I guess.
One more photo -- gratuitous drive side shot:
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03-12-20, 11:20 AM
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Very attractive build. Glad you got the fork and seat binder worked out.
As to the builder, it was certainly built by Carre, under contract for the Derepas shop, which was a very common practice at the time. When I forwarded you that email from Derepas' son, I think he was a bit confused when he said his father built it. With the Carre stamping on the seatstays it certainly came from Carre's shop.
As to the builder, it was certainly built by Carre, under contract for the Derepas shop, which was a very common practice at the time. When I forwarded you that email from Derepas' son, I think he was a bit confused when he said his father built it. With the Carre stamping on the seatstays it certainly came from Carre's shop.
03-12-20, 12:31 PM
#3
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Thread Starter
Very attractive build. Glad you got the fork and seat binder worked out.
As to the builder, it was certainly built by Carre, under contract for the Derepas shop, which was a very common practice at the time. When I forwarded you that email from Derepas' son, I think he was a bit confused when he said his father built it. With the Carre stamping on the seatstays it certainly came from Carre's shop.
As to the builder, it was certainly built by Carre, under contract for the Derepas shop, which was a very common practice at the time. When I forwarded you that email from Derepas' son, I think he was a bit confused when he said his father built it. With the Carre stamping on the seatstays it certainly came from Carre's shop.
The seat binder wasn't really hard to get useable, but I don't think I'm quite there yet. I had myself convinced that it was 26.0 mm, but I think it's still a little pinched and the better diameter would be 26.2. It doesn't quite grip a 26.0 post as well as it should. But, it's wasn't really too hard to muscle the steel around using a 26.0 mm steel seatpost as a mandrel.
Anyway, I think's it's going to be a nice riding bike when I'm done with it and I won't have to worry about anybody having one just like it.
03-12-20, 03:49 PM
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Good looking build, thank you for posting!
Interesting to read your thoughts and report on project progress.
Lug pattern Prugnat 62/s.
Wheel build plan of third generation Luxe Competition hubs with older Simplex skewers: In case you care about such things there is about a one year wide window when this combination is contemporaneous. The third gen Luxe Comp launched in 1970 and 1971 was the final year for the older style Juy skewers.
Stem/bar note - the cycle's first gen Tecno Tubo Torino Record stem likely has a clamp size of 26.0mm, although a 25.4mm size was produced. Markings on bar make it look to be something other than 3TTT but cannot quite read them. Hope for safety sake that clamp size and bar center dimension are the same. Mentioned only as safety point.
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Good looking build, thank you for posting!
Interesting to read your thoughts and report on project progress.
Lug pattern Prugnat 62/s.
Wheel build plan of third generation Luxe Competition hubs with older Simplex skewers: In case you care about such things there is about a one year wide window when this combination is contemporaneous. The third gen Luxe Comp launched in 1970 and 1971 was the final year for the older style Juy skewers.
Stem/bar note - the cycle's first gen Tecno Tubo Torino Record stem likely has a clamp size of 26.0mm, although a 25.4mm size was produced. Markings on bar make it look to be something other than 3TTT but cannot quite read them. Hope for safety sake that clamp size and bar center dimension are the same. Mentioned only as safety point.
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03-12-20, 05:35 PM
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A most excellent bike back on the road.Thanks for posting. Have not seen a 2-tone chromed fork, gives you the option for paint with sox up front, if desired.
I normally insist on having/using original fork with any purchase (even with minor (?) damage). I've had a few needing fork adjustments - all successful - and acquired one with a replacement chromed Tange. Prior owner's replacement seems to be a track fork, ie short offset.
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Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
03-12-20, 05:54 PM
#6
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Good looking build, thank you for posting!
Interesting to read your thoughts and report on project progress.
Lug pattern Prugnat 62/s.
Wheel build plan of third generation Luxe Competition hubs with older Simplex skewers: In case you care about such things there is about a one year wide window when this combination is contemporaneous. The third gen Luxe Comp launched in 1970 and 1971 was the final year for the older style Juy skewers.
Stem/bar note - the cycle's first gen Tecno Tubo Torino Record stem likely has a clamp size of 26.0mm, although a 25.4mm size was produced. Markings on bar make it look to be something other than 3TTT but cannot quite read them. Hope for safety sake that clamp size and bar center dimension are the same. Mentioned only as safety point.
-----
Good looking build, thank you for posting!
Interesting to read your thoughts and report on project progress.
Lug pattern Prugnat 62/s.
Wheel build plan of third generation Luxe Competition hubs with older Simplex skewers: In case you care about such things there is about a one year wide window when this combination is contemporaneous. The third gen Luxe Comp launched in 1970 and 1971 was the final year for the older style Juy skewers.
Stem/bar note - the cycle's first gen Tecno Tubo Torino Record stem likely has a clamp size of 26.0mm, although a 25.4mm size was produced. Markings on bar make it look to be something other than 3TTT but cannot quite read them. Hope for safety sake that clamp size and bar center dimension are the same. Mentioned only as safety point.
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As I said, you're right.
About the gold label hubs and early Simplex skewers -- those came to me together along with a mismatched pair of tubular rims one of which is a Mavic and the other, I think, a Fiamme red label. One of the tires on them was a Clement that looks like it might still hold air, but it won't get it from me. Anyway, the hubs and skewers probably match as to vintage. I do like the hubs. I don't think they roll as well as either Record hubs or the Mavic 550s, but are probably as smooth or smoother than the Nuovo Tipos. The Tipos are destined to go back to the Falcon from which they came, eventually.
Last edited by desconhecido; 03-12-20 at 06:04 PM.
03-12-20, 06:15 PM
#7
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A most excellent bike back on the road.Thanks for posting. Have not seen a 2-tone chromed fork, gives you the option for paint with sox up front, if desired.
I normally insist on having/using original fork with any purchase (even with minor (?) damage). I've had a few needing fork adjustments - all successful - and acquired one with a replacement chromed Tange. Prior owner's replacement seems to be a track fork, ie short offset.
03-12-20, 07:07 PM
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just so readers know -
Philippe did produce stems and bars with the 25.4mm clamp/center size
the 25.0mm was of course their "default" size, to use a current term
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just so readers know -
Philippe did produce stems and bars with the 25.4mm clamp/center size
the 25.0mm was of course their "default" size, to use a current term
-----
03-12-20, 10:28 PM
#9
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Glad this frame got a good home. Enjoy the ride.
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03-12-20, 11:35 PM
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very minor tip on this model of Weinmann brake lever -
a set of these came on a Raleigh RRA purchased new in 1974
cutouts in lever are made by making holes in standard lever
a faint burr is left at the edges of each cutout which I found to be irritating
you may wish to clean this up with a jeweler's file or bit of emory cloth on a small stick...
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very minor tip on this model of Weinmann brake lever -
a set of these came on a Raleigh RRA purchased new in 1974
cutouts in lever are made by making holes in standard lever
a faint burr is left at the edges of each cutout which I found to be irritating
you may wish to clean this up with a jeweler's file or bit of emory cloth on a small stick...
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