I want to support my LBS...but dang$$$
05-06-12, 12:47 PM
#201
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H-D's overall gross operating margin was about 33 percent in 2011. I won't get into the split between product categories, but however you slice it, more total profit is made selling motorcycles than clothing. The margin on motorcycles would have to be less than 1 percent for profit from clothing to exceed profit from bikes, and that would be assuming the margin on clothing was 100 percent. My numbers are accurate and you can verify them through the earnings statements here:
https://investor.harley-davidson.com/...657&highlight=
PG, Harleys do not cost "twice as much" as other motorcycles. That would be like saying Specialized bicycles cost twice as much as other bikes. Just a stupid thing to say.
https://investor.harley-davidson.com/...657&highlight=
PG, Harleys do not cost "twice as much" as other motorcycles. That would be like saying Specialized bicycles cost twice as much as other bikes. Just a stupid thing to say.
05-06-12, 12:50 PM
#203
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I think some people are forgetting that I can't buy a fresh hot cup of starbucks latte on amazon. If I could, and it was cheaper, I would. Cost is king, convenience is a close second.
05-06-12, 12:52 PM
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Iron 883 MSRP: $7999
Let me get out my calculator and see if that's "twice the price"...
05-06-12, 12:56 PM
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What is your point? You started off ranting about the difference in price for same/similar products online vs. bricks and mortar shop, then turned it into a rant against luxury brands and stores.
05-06-12, 01:01 PM
#206
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No ranting. Just an observation on why people are willing to pay more for things.
05-06-12, 01:12 PM
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You have hardly been making simple observations. Most of your comments have been quite judgmental in condemning people for buying things and shopping at stores you apparently don't approve of or don't make sense to you.
05-06-12, 01:13 PM
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05-06-12, 04:21 PM
#211
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This cost MORE than most Harleys...
I see this hand-made, full size bike every day at my work. It costs over $80k and took about nine months to make, entirely out of hand-laminated barn wood, by a LADY sculptor!
05-06-12, 06:21 PM
#212
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Wait a minute, why don't you drive a Honda Civic?
I've owned several BMW's over the years and currently own a 99 convertible M3 and a 08 528i. They are simply the finest driving cars on the road. The M3 is pretty much the ultimate road car. The standard by which all sports cars are measured. THey can be expensive to maintain if you go to a dealer for your maintenance, but they are very reliable cars. The only people who complain about BMWs are people who have never driven one or people who bought a used POS. I don't think I could ever own anything but BMW. They just drive differently. It's a very tight, connected feel. That 330i has the twin turbo, right? That is a bad mo-fo. Shop carefully and you will be very happy. You might want to check out some 5-Series as well.
05-11-12, 03:21 AM
#213
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Interesting thoughs from many in this thread.
Here is my two cents:
In the age of availability of cheaper online sales business models for a number of industries will have to evolve or they will perish or be pushed to the side.
It seems like most of the cost of your LBS is caused by their inability to purchase in large quantities (to lower cost) and their limited access to distribution.
I am always reminded of the quote "Most people look at things as they are and ask why, I imagine what they could be and ask why not?"
First when I look at any business model you either have some type of communal one (chain, co-op, etc...) or individual local stores. It is becoming harder and harder for any local business to stay open with all the big box chain stores around. It can be done, but I cannot even remember all the stores that chains like Target, Walmart, Best Buy, Sportsmart, Ace, etc...) have forced out of business.
When I think of what I normally purchase locally in a year most of it comes from sometype of chain store (groceries, auto parts, fast food, hardware, pet supplies) to name just a few. The few one off stores I purchase from either have a niche market or some other reason for their existence.
It is only a matter of time until Bikemart or Bike Co-op comes along and starts to swallow up local bike shops. They will be able to purchase in vast quantities to lower cost, better consolidate their expenses, afford web store creation, and have more leverage with distribution issues.
What is small business to do to survive?
Somehow they need to force change in the current system which no single shop can do. Personally I do not care who owns and runs the LBS as long as it is meeting my needs anymore than I care about who owns Super America where I ger gasoline. I would think that somehow the LBS need to act like and be part of a more cohesive unit. It either needs to be a self running franchise of a much larger entity or it needs to band together with other LBS in order to get some clout to change the system it works with. There is power in numbers, whats the old saying "That is easy to break one stick but much harder to break a group of sticks".
All through history farmers, milk producers, union workers, etc... have banded together to get the best prices for their products and treatment from their environment.
There will always be room for individual local businesses but the writing is on the wall for most. Something larger came along and swallowed them up or stole their customers.
Secondly it seems like the distribution channel is way to consolidated. QBP is right up the street from me and I went through it on a tour last year and they kept talking about its incredible growth and the number of LBS it supplies (I think they said over 10,000). It is by far the dominant supplier of bike parts in America having swallowed up almost all of the others. I can remember 20-30 years ago when the LBS got its parts from smaller by gone suppliers.
With QBP's large size and lack of competitors it sounds like it can dictate many things to the businesses it supplies which is never a good thing. It sounds like the industry needs alternative distribution channels (competition) badly opening the channel so that LBS can purchase where ever they get the best price. I do not know the answer to this other than to say QBP came out of nowhere not that long ago and it could be done again.
If Local businesses gained power by acting as a group somehow, either as part of larger company, Co-op, or association then they would have more leverage when dealing with the distribution channel or manufacturers. As long as local businesses act individually they will be powerless to change the hand they are being delt and with online sales growing yearly many or most will not survive.
Bikes shops are no different from many other current local industries that will try to survive going forward with online or Big Box competition. Many have failed already and I am sorry to say that many more will fail going forward. You can try to make it on Knowledge, Customer Service and Repairs, and serving less knowledgable customers but it requires a well run store to survive.
Personally I purchase many things online (not just bike parts) and I do it for many reasons:
1) lower prices
2) larger inventory
3) home shipping (saves gasoline)
4) customer appreciation plans (reward points and reduced pricing)
5) sales history lookup
6) detailed product information
7) online product review
8) alway open for business
9) notification on out of stock items
10) links to manufacturer
11) easy to compare prices
The chain stores and franchises seem to be way ahead of local business on most of these and it will only get worse. There is nothing special about bikes shops and the old paradigms on how to run one will be challenged in the future. A little industry consolidation might be a good thing in many ways..................
Here is my two cents:
In the age of availability of cheaper online sales business models for a number of industries will have to evolve or they will perish or be pushed to the side.
It seems like most of the cost of your LBS is caused by their inability to purchase in large quantities (to lower cost) and their limited access to distribution.
I am always reminded of the quote "Most people look at things as they are and ask why, I imagine what they could be and ask why not?"
First when I look at any business model you either have some type of communal one (chain, co-op, etc...) or individual local stores. It is becoming harder and harder for any local business to stay open with all the big box chain stores around. It can be done, but I cannot even remember all the stores that chains like Target, Walmart, Best Buy, Sportsmart, Ace, etc...) have forced out of business.
When I think of what I normally purchase locally in a year most of it comes from sometype of chain store (groceries, auto parts, fast food, hardware, pet supplies) to name just a few. The few one off stores I purchase from either have a niche market or some other reason for their existence.
It is only a matter of time until Bikemart or Bike Co-op comes along and starts to swallow up local bike shops. They will be able to purchase in vast quantities to lower cost, better consolidate their expenses, afford web store creation, and have more leverage with distribution issues.
What is small business to do to survive?
Somehow they need to force change in the current system which no single shop can do. Personally I do not care who owns and runs the LBS as long as it is meeting my needs anymore than I care about who owns Super America where I ger gasoline. I would think that somehow the LBS need to act like and be part of a more cohesive unit. It either needs to be a self running franchise of a much larger entity or it needs to band together with other LBS in order to get some clout to change the system it works with. There is power in numbers, whats the old saying "That is easy to break one stick but much harder to break a group of sticks".
All through history farmers, milk producers, union workers, etc... have banded together to get the best prices for their products and treatment from their environment.
There will always be room for individual local businesses but the writing is on the wall for most. Something larger came along and swallowed them up or stole their customers.
Secondly it seems like the distribution channel is way to consolidated. QBP is right up the street from me and I went through it on a tour last year and they kept talking about its incredible growth and the number of LBS it supplies (I think they said over 10,000). It is by far the dominant supplier of bike parts in America having swallowed up almost all of the others. I can remember 20-30 years ago when the LBS got its parts from smaller by gone suppliers.
With QBP's large size and lack of competitors it sounds like it can dictate many things to the businesses it supplies which is never a good thing. It sounds like the industry needs alternative distribution channels (competition) badly opening the channel so that LBS can purchase where ever they get the best price. I do not know the answer to this other than to say QBP came out of nowhere not that long ago and it could be done again.
If Local businesses gained power by acting as a group somehow, either as part of larger company, Co-op, or association then they would have more leverage when dealing with the distribution channel or manufacturers. As long as local businesses act individually they will be powerless to change the hand they are being delt and with online sales growing yearly many or most will not survive.
Bikes shops are no different from many other current local industries that will try to survive going forward with online or Big Box competition. Many have failed already and I am sorry to say that many more will fail going forward. You can try to make it on Knowledge, Customer Service and Repairs, and serving less knowledgable customers but it requires a well run store to survive.
Personally I purchase many things online (not just bike parts) and I do it for many reasons:
1) lower prices
2) larger inventory
3) home shipping (saves gasoline)
4) customer appreciation plans (reward points and reduced pricing)
5) sales history lookup
6) detailed product information
7) online product review
8) alway open for business
9) notification on out of stock items
10) links to manufacturer
11) easy to compare prices
The chain stores and franchises seem to be way ahead of local business on most of these and it will only get worse. There is nothing special about bikes shops and the old paradigms on how to run one will be challenged in the future. A little industry consolidation might be a good thing in many ways..................
Last edited by jcahow; 05-11-12 at 03:35 AM.
05-13-12, 03:59 AM
#217
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In all three examples you provide, none of the actual products are superior to the less-expensive alternatives. If you want to shop at Nordstrom because it makes you feel fancy, great. If you want a to own a Tag because of some movie, awesome! It's your money. But it's all conspicuous consumption.
I enjoy the Sidi conversation all the time in the shop...why the heck would anyone pay $250 or more for bike shoes? Because we have riders who are wearing the same Sidi's for 10 years? And you buy the cheap shoe and have purchased five or six pair over the same 10 years? Now who is ahead?
Some people are incapable of understanding quality, and more so what top notch service looks like.
05-13-12, 10:55 PM
#218
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I support my LBS whenever I can. I look at it this way: whenever you get a great deal on a purchase, somewhere there is an employee who is being screwed. Would you be willing to take a 50% pay cut so that I could buy your product a little cheaper? I didn't think so. Remember, that guy who works at your LBS may just be the next customer in your business. I often wonder, when the internet eliminates most brick and mortar stores, where will we all find jobs?
05-13-12, 11:17 PM
#219
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I paid a $60 premium for my Giro Aeons. Main reason was because I didn't want to wait a week or two to get a replacement helmet (I consider my life to be worth more than $60). But now that I think about it, dang, I got ripped off.
05-20-12, 05:08 AM
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I support my LBS whenever I can. I look at it this way: whenever you get a great deal on a purchase, somewhere there is an employee who is being screwed. Would you be willing to take a 50% pay cut so that I could buy your product a little cheaper? I didn't think so. Remember, that guy who works at your LBS may just be the next customer in your business. I often wonder, when the internet eliminates most brick and mortar stores, where will we all find jobs?
05-20-12, 05:50 AM
#221
Full Member
I'm glad my LBS is there... It's where I bought my bike, had my initial fitting, and will take it to should something go wrong. And when they had the one sale they have every year, I went and bought what I needed/wanted at what I thought were competitive prices.
But when I needed new tires - which I can replace myself - why would I buy them at $80 each when they were available on-line for $87 for the pair?
I hope they always find a way to stay open, but with the enormously wide range of options and better pricing on the e-tail sites, it just does not make good economic sense to buy everything locally. If the LBS cannot survive in this atmosphere, I guess I will adjust and perform the necessary adjustments and repairs myself, just as I had to build my own home subwoofers to get the performance and specs I wanted, and for half the cost.
But when I needed new tires - which I can replace myself - why would I buy them at $80 each when they were available on-line for $87 for the pair?
I hope they always find a way to stay open, but with the enormously wide range of options and better pricing on the e-tail sites, it just does not make good economic sense to buy everything locally. If the LBS cannot survive in this atmosphere, I guess I will adjust and perform the necessary adjustments and repairs myself, just as I had to build my own home subwoofers to get the performance and specs I wanted, and for half the cost.
05-20-12, 08:16 AM
#222
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No, you did NOT get "ripped off". You paid for convenience. How much is that week or two with a helmet and riding worth to you? The $20 or so you could have saved online?
05-20-12, 08:38 AM
#223
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I'm glad my LBS is there... It's where I bought my bike, had my initial fitting, and will take it to should something go wrong. And when they had the one sale they have every year, I went and bought what I needed/wanted at what I thought were competitive prices.
But when I needed new tires - which I can replace myself - why would I buy them at $80 each when they were available on-line for $87 for the pair?
I hope they always find a way to stay open, but with the enormously wide range of options and better pricing on the e-tail sites, it just does not make good economic sense to buy everything locally. If the LBS cannot survive in this atmosphere, I guess I will adjust and perform the necessary adjustments and repairs myself, just as I had to build my own home subwoofers to get the performance and specs I wanted, and for half the cost.
But when I needed new tires - which I can replace myself - why would I buy them at $80 each when they were available on-line for $87 for the pair?
I hope they always find a way to stay open, but with the enormously wide range of options and better pricing on the e-tail sites, it just does not make good economic sense to buy everything locally. If the LBS cannot survive in this atmosphere, I guess I will adjust and perform the necessary adjustments and repairs myself, just as I had to build my own home subwoofers to get the performance and specs I wanted, and for half the cost.
Much of the stuff local shops carry they will sell to people who are unwilling or unable to shop online, want the shop to do all the work, or have to see and touch before they buy or even complete noobs who don't have the understanding to change a tire. I bought a ton of stuff from my shop, like bikes, carrying racks for the truck, clothing, shoes, ect. But I bought an entire Ultegra groupset online because I saved a bunch of money and can do the work of installing it myself. I don't feel I screwed the bike store doing that, because in the end I am going to save the 200-300 bucks on that groupset only to spend it on more clothes and bikes in the future.
06-26-12, 08:07 PM
#224
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Looks like the flames have died down on this thread, time for some gasoline!
Went to the LBS last week without my latest vintage bike, (Peugeot -1972, steel everything and never ridden), explained to the nice young sales guy that I wanted to make a single speed out of it since it had a good look. He mentioned a couple parts they had for it, really cheap stuff and I told him I wanted a classic look with lightweight parts and had a budget of $300-400 for it. He says to bring the bike in Saturday and they will have a look at their catalog. I did my online research before Saturday, came back with an exact list printed of part numbers and specs of what I wanted. A few minutes consultation with the other sales guys and he says they don't have any of those things - leave your number and our manager will call you on Monday. He calls Tuesday, he says they don't have any of those things, and their distributor doesn't carry them. I said I am looking for all polished alloy parts, something I can shine up to work with the chrome on the bike - have you got something else? He says the owner won't be in until Thursday, he will call me back, but since it is all special order they won't have it for two weeks.
I told him never mind, I will order it all myself, but do you mind your guys putting the bottom bracket in for me even if I buy it somewhere else?
Sure, they had a lot of ugly, fairly low spec, single speed bikes for under $400 in their showroom.
The parts list? White Bros, IRD, Velo Orange, Nitto - not that unusual other than the French threading I need on the bottom bracket.
Went to the LBS last week without my latest vintage bike, (Peugeot -1972, steel everything and never ridden), explained to the nice young sales guy that I wanted to make a single speed out of it since it had a good look. He mentioned a couple parts they had for it, really cheap stuff and I told him I wanted a classic look with lightweight parts and had a budget of $300-400 for it. He says to bring the bike in Saturday and they will have a look at their catalog. I did my online research before Saturday, came back with an exact list printed of part numbers and specs of what I wanted. A few minutes consultation with the other sales guys and he says they don't have any of those things - leave your number and our manager will call you on Monday. He calls Tuesday, he says they don't have any of those things, and their distributor doesn't carry them. I said I am looking for all polished alloy parts, something I can shine up to work with the chrome on the bike - have you got something else? He says the owner won't be in until Thursday, he will call me back, but since it is all special order they won't have it for two weeks.
I told him never mind, I will order it all myself, but do you mind your guys putting the bottom bracket in for me even if I buy it somewhere else?
Sure, they had a lot of ugly, fairly low spec, single speed bikes for under $400 in their showroom.
The parts list? White Bros, IRD, Velo Orange, Nitto - not that unusual other than the French threading I need on the bottom bracket.
06-26-12, 08:16 PM
#225
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So how is it the fault of the LBS?
The distributors they work with don't stock those brands so they can't order them.
Even if they wanted to start working with a distributor(s) who does carry those products it means becoming their customer and there is some paperwork involved that, most likely, only the boss/owner can do and it takes some time and carries some expense.
All this so they can gross $100.00US from your order. In the end it would most likely be a net loss for them.
They honestly couldn't help you.
The distributors they work with don't stock those brands so they can't order them.
Even if they wanted to start working with a distributor(s) who does carry those products it means becoming their customer and there is some paperwork involved that, most likely, only the boss/owner can do and it takes some time and carries some expense.
All this so they can gross $100.00US from your order. In the end it would most likely be a net loss for them.
They honestly couldn't help you.