View Poll Results: What Are Your Helmet Wearing Habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet
52
10.40%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped
24
4.80%
I've always worn a helmet
208
41.60%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do
126
25.20%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions
90
18.00%
Voters: 500. You may not vote on this poll
The Helmet Thread 2
#2951
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Taking a chance?
Exactly; I have no problem with someone saying that they don't wear a helmet...
Because helmets don't protect you as much as most people think. (so I'm willing to take the chance)...
Because helmets just aren't needed in most crashes as the head usually doesn't even hit the ground. (so I'm willing to take the chance)...
Because helmets sometimes cause more harm than good. (so I'm willing to take the chance)...
Because I'm such a safe rider, riding in safe areas that nothing is going to happen. (so I'm willing to take the chance)...
Common thread here is (so I'm willing to take the chance)...
If all the non-helmeteers said that (so I'm willing to take the chance), just like most people take the chance on nothing happening while walking, jogging, taking a shower... (so I'm willing to take the chance)... I wouldn't be here year after year saying my bit... BUT, That isn't what is being said, usually... So here we are, year after year, saying the same thing...
EDIT; In other words... Saying you don't think wearing helmet is worth it, implying nobody should, one should be adding, (because I'm willing to take the chance/risk). JMO as I see it. . Not just the reason/reasons...
Because helmets don't protect you as much as most people think. (so I'm willing to take the chance)...
Because helmets just aren't needed in most crashes as the head usually doesn't even hit the ground. (so I'm willing to take the chance)...
Because helmets sometimes cause more harm than good. (so I'm willing to take the chance)...
Because I'm such a safe rider, riding in safe areas that nothing is going to happen. (so I'm willing to take the chance)...
Common thread here is (so I'm willing to take the chance)...
If all the non-helmeteers said that (so I'm willing to take the chance), just like most people take the chance on nothing happening while walking, jogging, taking a shower... (so I'm willing to take the chance)... I wouldn't be here year after year saying my bit... BUT, That isn't what is being said, usually... So here we are, year after year, saying the same thing...
EDIT; In other words... Saying you don't think wearing helmet is worth it, implying nobody should, one should be adding, (because I'm willing to take the chance/risk). JMO as I see it. . Not just the reason/reasons...
#2952
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Exactly; I have no problem with someone saying that they don't wear a helmet...
...
EDIT; In other words... Saying you don't think wearing helmet is worth it, implying nobody should, one should be adding, (because I'm willing to take the chance/risk). JMO as I see it. . Not just the reason/reasons...
...
EDIT; In other words... Saying you don't think wearing helmet is worth it, implying nobody should, one should be adding, (because I'm willing to take the chance/risk). JMO as I see it. . Not just the reason/reasons...
Given my specific situation, I've worn a helmet only 4 or 5 times since June. Partly because I've been much more restrained since an accident, which is IMO an equal factor to the external factors. My greatest risks come from taking more risk, and if I am planning on sprints or pushing my limits or riding 2 hours in traffic or chancing ice or storms, that's when the helmet goes on.
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#2953
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Nobody uses their helmet to prevent snatch and grab at the coffee shop? If they could incorporate a kevlar strap with a locking chin strap, I see money...
#2954
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"Even though nobody wears bike helmets in the Netherlands, the fatality rate there is six times smaller than that of the United States." - which is attributed to a universal speed limit of 30kph (18.6 mph) in residential areas, and to infrastructure to a lesser extent. Food for thought anyway, that maybe where we ride has more effect on our safety than helmets and all our safety equipment.
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/pe...ike-a-dutchman
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/pe...ike-a-dutchman
In the Netherlands the death and TBI rates for cyclists with helmets are actually much higher than the average, probably nearly as high as in the USA. It has probably more to do with how we ride than where. We don't expect safety from safety equipment, we rely on our skills and not just the cyclists' skills. Those are above average though, both in avoiding crashes and not landing on your head. Not just because of beeing on the bike a lot, but also because between the ages of 5-15 there's a lot of mucking about on bikes. Everybody has some experience with keeping the bike upright in difficult circumstances and with falling off. But I personally think the type of bike might make the biggest difference. The upright bikes allow much better overview of traffic, and when there's a collision with one this does often not lead to a fall, and if there's a fall, there's quite a bit of distance/time to prevent the head hitting the ground.
#2955
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The upright bikes allow much better overview of traffic, and when there's a collision with one this does often not lead to a fall, and if there's a fall, there's quite a bit of distance/time to prevent the head hitting the ground.
And for that extra tenth of a second, your fall ends striking the ground about 15-20% faster. I doubt that there's any safety enhancement whatsoever from riding the more upright bike, other than you'll probably be doing it more sedately.
#2956
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FWIW, the TBI rates for people on bikes in Amsterdam (and the Netherlands) is actually surprisingly high. And it's not just MAMIL's. (Though there are MAMIL-winkels in Amsterdam.)
But anyhow, a demonstration of real people on bikes in Amsterdam, rather than the rose colored propaganda:
-mr. bill
But anyhow, a demonstration of real people on bikes in Amsterdam, rather than the rose colored propaganda:
-mr. bill
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#2957
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We can't really pretend it away, that the Netherlands are safer for cyclists. Bicycle fatality rate in the US is 1.5 to over 3 times as much as in the Netherlands, depending on whether you normalize it by km of motor vehicles, number of motor vehicles, or per capita.
TBI rates in the USA were 824 per 100,000 people in 2010 according to the CDC, and were 213 per 100,000 in the Netherlands according to their hospital data (Dutch Injury Surveillance System (LIS) )
TBI rates in the USA were 824 per 100,000 people in 2010 according to the CDC, and were 213 per 100,000 in the Netherlands according to their hospital data (Dutch Injury Surveillance System (LIS) )
#2958
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We can't really pretend it away, that the Netherlands are safer for cyclists. Bicycle fatality rate in the US is 1.5 to over 3 times as much as in the Netherlands, depending on whether you normalize it by km of motor vehicles, number of motor vehicles, or per capita.
TBI rates in the USA were 824 per 100,000 people in 2010 according to the CDC, and were 213 per 100,000 in the Netherlands according to their hospital data (Dutch Injury Surveillance System (LIS) )
TBI rates in the USA were 824 per 100,000 people in 2010 according to the CDC, and were 213 per 100,000 in the Netherlands according to their hospital data (Dutch Injury Surveillance System (LIS) )
1; more bicyclists.
2; more bike lanes.
3; Less cars. & most vehicles are basically separated from bike lanes.
4; a totally "different|" way/culture of riding bicycles...
5; Head injuries/all injuries, should be less, in Europe on average because of the culture, that the bicyclist have a right to be on the roads and here in N. America, most drivers do not think a bicycle "belongs" on the road, and... purposely pass too close, (to send a message), sometimes misjudging, and wham, ooppps I did not mean to "actually" run them over, I just meant to "send them a message', that they are not supposed to be on the road/or and they are certainly not supposed to take the whole lane/... JMO
EDIT; In other words, concluding that people in the Netherlands who have less head injuries per Km ridden, and generally do not wear head protection, compared to people in the N. American continent where head gear is practically mandatory... and head injuries are way higher, is miss leading IMO... Why...???
Because of the different couture/attitude towards bicyclists,
Because of the different speeds/distance's per person riding.
Because of the different distances people need to ride to accomplish their goals for the day, in Europe 4, 5 |Km of riding gets you to your job, and 4, 5 Km gets you home, here 15Km to 30Km to the job and 15Km to 30Km home is not uncommon, thus the pressure for speed...
A TOTALY different measuring stick, than just using the Km traveled per rider. IMO Thus, NOT really comparable per Km of trave...
Last edited by 350htrr; 09-23-19 at 08:28 PM.
#2959
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I think there are huge differences in riding a bicycle in the Netherlands, compared to riding a bicycle anywhere in N America...
Speed, the people are riding at a leisurely speed...
Dedicated bicycle lanes, where bicycle traffic is not mixed with car traffic.
Distances, people ride to get to where they want to go are way less, thus allowing for leisurely speed bicycle traffic...
It all adds up to a TOTALT DIFFERENT, outcome in accident rates.. JMO...
Speed, the people are riding at a leisurely speed...
Dedicated bicycle lanes, where bicycle traffic is not mixed with car traffic.
Distances, people ride to get to where they want to go are way less, thus allowing for leisurely speed bicycle traffic...
It all adds up to a TOTALT DIFFERENT, outcome in accident rates.. JMO...
A lot of the cycling in the Netherlands is like enhanced walking. A lot of it is slow.
It also helps significantly that a large fraction of the population cycles.
(I've ridden there.)
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-23-19 at 08:51 PM.
#2960
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We can't really pretend it away, that the Netherlands are safer for cyclists. Bicycle fatality rate in the US is 1.5 to over 3 times as much as in the Netherlands, depending on whether you normalize it by km of motor vehicles, number of motor vehicles, or per capita.
TBI rates in the USA were 824 per 100,000 people in 2010 according to the CDC, and were 213 per 100,000 in the Netherlands according to their hospital data (Dutch Injury Surveillance System (LIS) )
TBI rates in the USA were 824 per 100,000 people in 2010 according to the CDC, and were 213 per 100,000 in the Netherlands according to their hospital data (Dutch Injury Surveillance System (LIS) )
#2961
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A lot of the cycling everywhere, including the U.S. is probably considered relatively slow and not up to the speed standards of BF brand cycling enthusiasts, advocates and self appointed safety experts.
#2962
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I've ridden in The Netherlands and the U.S., a lot of the cycling is relatively slow in both countries, as most of the cyclists are not enthusiasts hell bent to be a Strava star or KOM with every commute, grocery run or recreational ride.
A lot of the cycling everywhere, including the U.S. is probably considered relatively slow and not up to the speed standards of BF brand cycling enthusiasts, advocates and self appointed safety experts.
A lot of the cycling everywhere, including the U.S. is probably considered relatively slow and not up to the speed standards of BF brand cycling enthusiasts, advocates and self appointed safety experts.
#2963
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Most of the riders in the US ride slowly, but there aren't that many of them and they ride infrequently.
(In any case, preferring to ride faster than this doesn't require approval from you.)
#2964
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Well, I certainly am NOT a safety expert... BUT, IMO... It probably doesn't take too many people to "skew" the numbers, or even that many extra vehicle/bicycle/faster/longer rides, riding/driving together on streets not actually designed for them being together to make a HUGE, difference in accident rates or the type/severity of injuries that happen in even lets say10% difference in riding stile/riding circumstance/riding speeds... again, JMO
Proportionally, many fewer people ride in the US (there are many people who ride very infrequently).
#2965
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It does reduce the risk of TBI, and by a significant percentage.
Have you checked that assumption? There is not "quite a bit" of extra time to fall between an upright dutch style and a normal road bike. Reasonably there might be 18 inches difference in head height. That gives you less than a tenth of a second extra.
And for that extra tenth of a second, your fall ends striking the ground about 15-20% faster. I doubt that there's any safety enhancement whatsoever from riding the more upright bike, other than you'll probably be doing it more sedately.
And for that extra tenth of a second, your fall ends striking the ground about 15-20% faster. I doubt that there's any safety enhancement whatsoever from riding the more upright bike, other than you'll probably be doing it more sedately.
The dynamics and physics of a cycling crash are complicated, especially because the cyclist is human and capable of influencing the impact. There's even research suggesting that wearing a helmet impacts not only the cyclist's behaviour but also the behaviour of drivers before an eventual impact. Anyway, it's the 'you should wear a helmet' people that have to explain why countries with more helmets are unsafer. And that's not just a matter of two extremes with very different cycling, but also the case when you compare Denmark and the Netherlands or Germany and Denmark.
But anyhow, a demonstration of real people on bikes in Amsterdam, rather than the rose colored propaganda:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCDfY9HTgbQ
-mr. bill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCDfY9HTgbQ
-mr. bill
#2966
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That's if you fall like a bag of potatoes, which is not the proper or the likely way to fall. On an upright bike it takes quite a sudden decellaration to go over the handlebars head first and land without beeing able to land with your arms first.
Over the bars is actually easier because the rotation will throw you up a bit, giving more time. Even so, your idea that the dutch bike is safer because you're higher is misguided. Given your druthers, you should rather fall from a lower distance than a higher one.
There's even research suggesting that wearing a helmet impacts not only the cyclist's behaviour but also the behaviour of drivers before an eventual impact. ...
#2967
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Wow, that's a lot of bike/pedestrian interaction. Pretty much like riding your bike on a sidewalk in San Francisco. Think I'd rather deal with the cars.
#2969
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Many city bikes are "crank forward", so the rider can drop a foot to the pavement while still sitting. That means the seat is lower.
#2970
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The weight is distributed differently. There's more weight forward on a road bike. If there's an "over the handle bar" event on upright-posture bike, there's a bit more time available to "catch" the weight moving forward.
Many city bikes are "crank forward", so the rider can drop a foot to the pavement while still sitting. That means the seat is lower.
Many city bikes are "crank forward", so the rider can drop a foot to the pavement while still sitting. That means the seat is lower.
Lower is better for sure. Makes it harder to flip, don't hit the ground as hard. But his 6 or 8 inches (maybe) lower from the cruiser gets subtracted from his, what did I say, 18 inches higher from sitting up. 2/3 of that because it's only the upper body, so it more or less balances out on the center of gravity. All of this, the idea that the cruiser is just safer because of geometry, is really weak when you get to the details.
The cruiser is safer because you're going slower on a cruiser. Everyone in the bike street is going slow, because it's crowded, distances are generally short with few hills to pick up speed. The geometry is because of where they are and how they ride. That's what makes them safer, not the geometry.
#2971
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It's all but meaningless. Six inches further forward? A foot? At a sedate 12 mph you'd go over the handlebars at 1/15 a second faster if you're leaning forward and the bike stops. I know, you said "catch your weight" as if you're going to stop it by pushing against the handlebars while the bike is moving. But you know as well as I do that you go over the bars when the bike flips. When the bike is flipping - pushing the bars won't help you much and you wouldn't have much extra time if it did.
Is going over the bars even that common?
You are less likely to be in the position of flipping over in the first place.
Moving your butt back off the seat of a road bike improves braking and reduces going over the bars substantially. Even though it's a small change in position. Moving back is a relatively high-order skill. The point is that small differences in weight distribution has a useful effect. Riders of "cruisers" are already doing this, somewhat, because the seat is behind the crank.
Lower is better for sure. Makes it harder to flip, don't hit the ground as hard. But his 6 or 8 inches (maybe) lower from the cruiser gets subtracted from his, what did I say, 18 inches higher from sitting up. 2/3 of that because it's only the upper body, so it more or less balances out on the center of gravity. All of this, the idea that the cruiser is just safer because of geometry, is really weak when you get to the details.
The cruiser is safer because you're going slower on a cruiser. Everyone in the bike street is going slow, because it's crowded, distances are generally short with few hills to pick up speed. The geometry is because of where they are and how they ride. That's what makes them safer, not the geometry.
==================
Many people (not you) attribute the reduced risk in Europe to "infrastructure". (It's a mistake to consider Europe as one thing)
They have no idea that some of it is awful.
I had one experience (in Augsburg?) in a narrow, recessed bicycle-lane on a sidewalk, a passing rider brushed against me. Advocates in the US would not have considered it an acceptable bicycle lane.
Much of the infrastructure (in cities) is designed to make cycling slower.
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-24-19 at 09:12 PM.
#2973
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Is going over the bars even that common?
Many people (not you) attribute the reduced risk in Europe to "infrastructure". (It's a mistake to consider Europe as one thing)
They have no idea that some of it is awful.
I had one experience (in Augsburg?) in a narrow, recessed bicycle-lane on a sidewalk, a passing rider brushed against me. Advocates in the US would not have considered it an acceptable bicycle lane.
Much of the infrastructure (in cities) is designed to make cycling slower.
They have no idea that some of it is awful.
I had one experience (in Augsburg?) in a narrow, recessed bicycle-lane on a sidewalk, a passing rider brushed against me. Advocates in the US would not have considered it an acceptable bicycle lane.
Much of the infrastructure (in cities) is designed to make cycling slower.
#2974
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If you have all that time to roll, you have the time to push back. And few people have the ability to roll. Everybody can push back. Or, it's easier to learn. (Of course, it might not always be possible.) And you can be pushing back (to some degree) before the 0.15 seconds).
This is an example of what I'm talking about. It's lower than the sidewalk. There's small lip.
Nothing really wrong with it but it isn't really designed for riding bicycles fast.
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3628...=en&authuser=0
This is outside of the Amsterdam inner city (what is shown is fairly typical in many cities). Inner city Amsterdam is its own thing.
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-25-19 at 08:39 AM.
#2975
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As a generally applied maneuver, sure it does.
If you have all that time to roll, you have the time to push back. And few people have the ability to roll. Everybody can push back. Or, it's easier to learn. (Of course, it might not always be possible.) And you can be pushing back (to some degree) before the 0.15 seconds).
If you have all that time to roll, you have the time to push back. And few people have the ability to roll. Everybody can push back. Or, it's easier to learn. (Of course, it might not always be possible.) And you can be pushing back (to some degree) before the 0.15 seconds).
.2 seconds is the cap for almost everybody, the fastest they can react even with training. So no, they cannot push back to some, or any, degree before .15 seconds.
On the other hand, any average person can very easily react fast enough to roll out of an over the bars event. There is that much difference in the timing. The last time that happened to me, I did precisely that - in my late 50's slowed down and out of practice. Falling from a low-slide, I might or might not catch myself. I'm not actually guessing here or talking theoretically.