terry b

A chopper is the most mis-understood example there is. Choppers essentially have no rake in the way that a bicycle does. The fork legs are a direct continuation of the head tube and the head tube angle on a chopper is very low. The correct term for a bike fork is actually "offset" and it indicates the distance that the axle is offset from the steering axis. On a chopper, the offset is 0. Rake on a chopper is the angle between the fork legs and a line perpindicular to the ground drawn through the headtube.

But hey man - you're the one that said there are lots of sites that support your point. I throw up two and the numbers, I didn't get anything from you. So we get the internet classic - can't understand the data, can't refute what's presented so instead deliver an insult and claim time is too precious. Thanks for playing as long as you did.

VT to CA

Dude, just google "bicycle fork rake steering" or call your LBS. The reason why I don't feel like arguing is that this isn't exactly brain surgery...

terry b

C'mon guy - post one single link that says "more trail = fast steering." Or one that says "more rake = more trail." I've given you a couple and you've given me nothing but attitude.

Or, take apart the ones I've put up. Who am I supposed to believe, you or Craig Calfee?

Surely it ain't rocket science which makes me wonder why you can't get it. Perhaps your LBS explained it to you which is why you have it backwards?

unbelievably

How about starting your own thread on the subject, Ya' terrorist like hijacker...

terry b

Don't get me started.................

Actually, as absurd as it seems it's still germane to the topic. OP was asking which bike would perform "like a racing bike." Rake/trail are probably the two major contributors.

glenng

Getting back on track here.......

Like others have posted before........ the bike shop was trying to fit a bike to "your needs" and that is good.

YOur bike shop is listening to your needs and is suggesting a bike that will bring you the most enjoyment based on your requirments.

I have a bunch of bikes...my race bike is my most expensive bike. It weighs 16ish pounds and is stiff as a brick. Beats the crap out of me. I hate to even look at it. It is a tool with only one purpose. I don`t enjoy the scenery when I`m on it. It gets raced and thats it.

My everydaybike weighs 20ish, it is a dream to ride and I actually "enjoy" every mile I ride on it. There is a big difference between the two bikes as far as enjoyment goes. My everydaybike cost $1250 my race bike about 2.5x that. If I could have only one bike it would be the everydaybike. Don`t get caught up with price even if you have a limitless bike fund. Its about enjoying the ride and having fun, its definatley not about how much the bike cost. If it is about how much the bike cost then its really not about cycling, its about owning stuff.

VT to CA

Okay, I'll do my good deed for the day... check out the link below, it's the most basic and straight forward one I could find. I don't blame you for misunderstanding the Calfee explanation, it's written pretty technically.

https://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/dirt...-function.html

If this link doesn't help, give Calfee Design a call at 831-728-1859, and ask them what the steering differences would be if you put either a 45 or 48mm raked fork on their Dragonfly model...

Or ask the same question of the folks at Kuota (since this little debate of ours stemmed from their numbers), they can be reached toll-free at 877 619-0984... I'm sure someone there could explain how the geometry and fork selection of the Kredo make it a more aggressive, quicker turning bike than the Kebel.

terry b

Wow, it must be late for you because that site says exactly what I've been saying all along.

"Modern, new-school sport tourers use forks with a rake of 4.5 cm or less, which produces a lot of trail. On the other hand, classic, old-school sport tourers have 5.0 cm or more of fork rake which produces less trail."

Aside from that guy's personal impressions of riding these bikes around the block, I hardly see how this states what you've been arguing for. If you take the time to read his specs, you'll also see that the head tube angle is getting more slack on the bikes he is describing with larger rakes so the trail is balancing out between the two.

I honestly don't understand why you can't get what Calfee said: "Fork offset for road bikes usually ranges from 40 to 55 mm, generating trail figures from 50 to 63 mm (note, Calfee did not list those backwards even though the higher number is generated by the lower offset (rake). 57mm of trail is considered by many to be an ideal combination of stability and agility." 57 just happens to be trail that a 40 rake produces with a 72.5 HTA. 50 is generated by a 47 rake and gee whiz, that more or less describes our little debate from square one.

So go ahead and insult my ability to understand technical literature, I will resist the urge to get snarky. But it's you (once again) that has it backwards.

Or are you honestly arguing that more trail = quicker handling?

Here's a bit more - "If all the other factors are kept the same, slackening the headtube angle or enlarging the wheel will increase the trail, and extending the rake of the fork will decrease the trail (I use the term rake to mean the forward extension of the fork at the tips, which is sometimes achieved with an angle between a straight-bladed fork and the steertube. This might not be the proper term, but it's what most bicycle engineers use)."

And a bit more - " bicycle is said to be stable when it has a strong correcting tendency in its steering. Imagine a moving bicycle that has its front wheel knocked sideways by a rock or chuckhole, so that it is suddenly turning. If the bicycle has no trail, there will be no steering correction"

Let's summarize -

More stability needs strong steering correction
No trail = no correcting tendency
More rake = less trail
So more rake = less correcting tendency?

Or am I misunderstanding that too?

Here's the link - https://www.dclxvi.org/chunk/tech/trail/

Maybe you should sleep on it a bit and I'll go back to my boring meeting.

cs1

I don't know if this was mentioned but here goes: For the kind of money you're talking about, buy a custom. $4,200.00 will buy a nice Chorus or DA equipped custom frame. You can have the exact geometry and size for your riding needs. IMO, I wouldn't spend more than $3,000.00 on ANY factory bike without first examining some kind of custom. Good luck

Tim

samsation7

I can build you a sub 15 pounds bike under 3 grands easily using DA and brand new parts source from ebay.

roadwarrior

Here's a bit more.

For example, track bikes and some time trial bikes have less trail. Twitchier handling. Remember Rasmussen in the TdF time trial two years ago?

Good analysis, by the way. It's less about rake and more about the steerer angle. For example, Trek's Madone's use "straight" forks (no bend in the blades) but Cannondale's System Six uses blade bend. My guess is that the trail is pretty close to the same depending on the size(on my Six, the trail is 5.3). Smaller bike, trail changes due to the wheelbase length. On a Six at 54cm it's 5.6.

VT to CA

Nice novella. The original fact I stated which you felt the need to debate was this:

"The 45mm rake will turn faster, the 48mm will be cushier. The Kredo is going to turn faster and be more responsive than the Kebel."

Every website referenced has backed that up. Kuota has backed that up. If you call Craig Calfee, he'll back that up. I think the problem here is that you can't see the forest for the trees...

Look, I'm right and you're wrong, okay? No big deal.

I understand that you're confused by this stuff, but can you please just let it go already?

roadwarrior

Unfortunately, bike shops do a p!$$ poor job of training their people. They will bring in a "bike person" but give them little to no sales training. So, this person's intentions may have been good, the way it may have looked to you because of the unpolished delivery made it appear to be something different. So, in my case rather than saying "it's for racing", I say "a bit stiffer and more aggressive" because I don't want to paint the customer in a corner that's "you don't look like you race, so you don't need this bike."

Looks should not matter. My brother likes to tell the story of a guy who walks into a Ferrari dealership not looking like he belonged there. Dressed in cotton sweat pants, t shirt, hair a mess and unshaved. In the dealership, the sales people rotate (due to the number of cars they sell...it's quality not quantity) and the next guy up tells the most junior guy, "You take him. He'll never buy anything and I don't want to waste my time."
The guy was August Busch IV. Yeah, the Busch familly that owns Budweiser. Paid cash for a Testarossa.

I had a lady come in that was looking for a MTB. She looked like she was going to do some serious yard work and had put on her really grubby clothes to work in. Captain for FED EX flying DC 10's across the country.

I always phrase "bike feel" in a way that helps the customer visualize the ride they will get and how they will sit on the bike. Then, they can decide what they want. Once we narrow that down, it's on to why bikes cost what they do and within a frameset they can pick their components given what the manufacturer puts on that frameset.

pedalhard

What your saying is so true thanks for the realty check

Mellow Johnny

Dont forget you are buying a bike from a guy/kid making $10/hr, not a professional sales rep. I tend to think that most of these guys see customers and assume the lowest common denominator. For example, I see it when I buy skis. I am a world class alpine skier, but I am built like a linebacker. I get my skis for free, but when I wonder into a shop the sales people treat me like I am an amateur based on judgements they have on my size, look, etc. Thats because 99% of their clientel is exactly that. So I wouldnt be offended. Buy what you want.

Brian

Two points, based on my observations of other people's assumptions:

One, I am quite sure that the prices he quoted are Canadian dollars, which means that they don't go as far as the US dollar. A custom bike may be more than $4k.

Two, don't assume the guy at the bike shop is some kid making $10/hr. If I am correct on my first point, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that in Canada they may actually pay better wages. When I lived in Australia, the starting wage at the shop I worked at was $18/hr. Some people can make a career out of that. We had college students, and real salespeople. But we were all cyclists first.

recursive

I have the same 3 bikes, and race the beautiful one.

pedalhard

Your right it is cnd dollars so yes a custom is like 5000.00 or more if I say went with Guru.The minium wage is 8.00 an hour here.

biffstephens

pedalhard,

I have a Kredo and my girlfrind owns a Kebel....

I am not sure what the guy at the bike stores deal was but he could have been trying to save you money or he could have just wanted to be in control and to tell you what to do...some people are like that....

I think (personal opinion here) that most bikes with a nice stem, bar, or seat choice can be most of the bike people want it to be....it can be a racer or a club rider....you just have to look at the geometry your used to riding (assuming you are comfortable now) and make sure the new bike is close. I owned a Giant TCR before and there were a few differances but nothing steller nothing I felt I could not adapt to....plus there were a few things I wanted to try out....lower stem for one....I ride about like you as well....club rides...centurys....25 on Monday and 35 on Wed...just the normal ride stuff I think....

I wouldn't be scared of the Kredo by any means...my girlfriend likes her Kebel as well.....if you have any specific questions please ask...I only have about 400 miles on mine so far but I will do my best to answer them....



Here's a pic...

bigskymacadam

1. you don't have to justify where you got the money.

2. you don't have to justify why you want a race bike.

i hope there's another shop you can go to. or a different salesperson.

Brian

What if the salesperson really doesn't want to sell him a bike that he won't be happy with? I wish someone would have talked me out of a Minolta, and gotten me hooked up with a Canon the first time around.

TheKillerPenguin

The salesman was trying to be nice and steer the OP to a cheaper bike that would fit his needs. He more than likely figured that this would make the OP happy, as it would save him money and he would probably be more comfortable. What the hell is so wrong about that? Are you people that insecure, that you take the dude being helpful as him trying to say you're not worthy of a "race worthy" bike? Are you people going through midlife crises or something?

TheKillerPenguin

That's damn pretty.

roadwarrior

Remember....this is the internet and it's Bikeforums. It's a mystical place where people look at pictures on cyclingnews of Boonen's bike and think they can set their's up that way, too. Where you ask a question about a bike and people who have never owned or even ridden it will give you expert advice. Where people who have never owned or worked in a bike shop and sit in a cubie all day posting on this site (and getting paid by their employers), will tell you how to run one properly. Where someone tells a story about an experience they have had, and people who were not there and were thousands of miles away will tell you what that person was thinking.



It's for laughs.

Flak

The truth is, no one but that sales rep knows why he talked you down. Every persons opinion on what he was doing in this thread counts for naught.

He could have been trying to do you a favour, or he could have been trying to sell something he had in stock. Either explanation is plausible, it's up to you to figure it out unfortunately.